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Re: Hunting Rifle Mission Creep [Re: FrankR] #1015947 06/28/11 07:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 8,557
LandRaider Offline
Forum Moderator
*****
Quote
The 165gr recoil is a little bruising to the shoulder after 20 rounds or so.

Frank


<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I hear ya. I hate shooting 30-06. my 223 is OK for me. I can't see much past 400 anyway. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


87 Raider 4D56td v5MT1
31's..Basically Stock
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Re: Hunting Rifle Mission Creep [Re: LandRaider] #1015948 06/29/11 02:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,649
fasteddy Offline
Web Wheeler
*****
I'm an indifferent ballistician, but I remember reading something in a shooting magazine years ago about a harmonic relationship between bullet weight and diameter and number of turns per foot in the rifling and the muzzle velocity and resulting rpms, and rate of decrease with time (i.e., air friction, so you had to input all the air density variables, and, oh, yeah, the wind, since there's a non-linear relationship between wind velocity and downwind drift, and a wind from the right has a non-mirror image effect from a wind from the left.

I even read one article that claims the bullet does a long helix shaped path instead of a paraboloid path with atmo effects.

Precession was in there somewhere, too, and the equinoxes had nothing to do with it.

I got sort of interested in naval gunfire once. They had some nifty mechanical analog "computers" on warships that predicted the fall of shot, using metal cams to mimic mathematical expressions. The math itself was extremely hairy (I think the methods were named after guys named Siachi and Vernet, or something like that) that were empirically dervied from multitudes of observations whose recorded results were fitted to equations by regression techniques. The variables mostly ended up being exponents of constants.

And it is a kickin' mule to shoot, isn't it, especially lightened up some.

Frank, I did a little research and found some confirmation on a barrel harmonic whipping, varying with barrel temp, and the "preloading" at the stock front to "fix" it. There was some thought that the harmonic whip effect was in part dependent on bullet weight and the bullet time in the barrel.

Ballistics is so much fun. So many interrelated variables to confuse you, like picking apart a snarl in a monofilament loaded reel. And no chance to use the Gordian knot solution...


Not responsible for advice not taken...
Re: Hunting Rifle Mission Creep [Re: fasteddy] #1015949 06/29/11 07:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,211
JohnnyBfromPeoria Offline
Trail Leader
*****
Once again, FE has made my head hurt.

I think the grouping is fine, and I'd leave it alone at this point, except to experiment with different ammo. Enjoy it now that it has 'crept up' on you.

I've got to read that FastEd post again, that was some wizard stuff he said there.

John B.

Re: Hunting Rifle Mission Creep [Re: fasteddy] #1015950 06/29/11 06:56 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,628
hazy_daze Offline
Roll Me Over
*****
And my migraine's back...


Fasteddy's advice is occasionally sound...
Re: Hunting Rifle Mission Creep [Re: hazy_daze] #1015951 06/29/11 09:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,649
fasteddy Offline
Web Wheeler
*****
Yes, I came to see you today and you wuzn't there...


Not responsible for advice not taken...
Re: Hunting Rifle Mission Creep [Re: fasteddy] #1015952 06/30/11 12:55 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,005
jeepdriver Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Frank, perhaps if you could play with the cartridge OAL (over-all length) by getting the bullet into the rifling you might see some improvement. Easy enough if you have reloading equipment.


Too many 4x4's, not enough time or money
Re: Hunting Rifle Mission Creep [Re: jeepdriver] #1015953 06/30/11 02:34 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,649
fasteddy Offline
Web Wheeler
*****
Bruce, how much runout do you see in the bullet in handloads and factory loads? I never thought of that before, just assumed they really centered the projectile.


Not responsible for advice not taken...
Re: Hunting Rifle Mission Creep [Re: jeepdriver] #1015954 06/30/11 03:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,238
FrankR Offline OP
Web Wheeler
****
Bruce, I don't reload, but I did consider whether I had any throat wear or if the bullet was engaging the rifling in the breech. I can see rifling all the way, but I haven't yet loaded a round and pulled it out to see if it's reaching the rifling. I probably will just out of curiosity.

Right now, the barrel's getting another overnight soaking of Wipe-Out. I noticed after the last cleaning session, the barrel didn't get as hot as before and what heat buildup I did get took longer to show itself. There's probably a lot less bullet friction after removing so much copper fouling.

Eddy, harmonics/resonance has quite a bit to do with what I'm trying to straighten out. Bullet weight and powder load have a lot to do with it and heat does change the equation..... but before I can get to the real truth, I have to weed through all of the other factors. Right now, the copper fouling is one. Severe fouling increases friction which begets heat, which causes distortion of negative factors to a magnitude not otherwise seen in normal shooting. The tight barrel channel is allowing a hot barrel to touch the stock in two places. When the barrel touches the stock, two things happen - the pressure from the stock causes the barrel to bend slightly AND changes the resonance of the barrel, which changes the movement of the barrel at the muzzle at the instant the round is launched. With a second place for the barrel to touch the stock, the resonance can really go whacky as the harmonics bounce from one point to another. Depending on the harmonic timing, the two points could have the effect of actually whipping the end of the barrel into a leveraged movement, which could really throw the shot in a very unpredictable direction. I "think" that's what I'm seeing, but I'm no expert on building accurate rifles. I do enjoy tinkering, though.

I have a bad case of the "I can make it better" syndrome. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Frank


'89 [color:"white"]G-Raider[color:"white"] [color:"black"]Supercharged 3.0L, MegaSquirt 2, lockup A/T, 2.5" exhaust, 172k, Cibie H4s/Oscar SCs, Hella Micro DE fogs, Cobra CB, Superwinch hubs, LSD rear/Aussie Locker front, Bilsteins, Lifeline AGM, Rust-Oleum
Re: Hunting Rifle Mission Creep [Re: FrankR] #1015955 06/30/11 04:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,238
FrankR Offline OP
Web Wheeler
****
These are bad pictures, but they'll give you an idea of what I'm trying to correct with respect to cleaning the barrel. The blue color on the cleaning patch and towel is copper from the barrel cleaning after a 6 hour soak..... and this is after I cleaned it until nothing more came out immediately after the last range session. There must be aged layers of the stuff that is taking time to soften and become exposed enough for removal:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Frank


'89 [color:"white"]G-Raider[color:"white"] [color:"black"]Supercharged 3.0L, MegaSquirt 2, lockup A/T, 2.5" exhaust, 172k, Cibie H4s/Oscar SCs, Hella Micro DE fogs, Cobra CB, Superwinch hubs, LSD rear/Aussie Locker front, Bilsteins, Lifeline AGM, Rust-Oleum
Re: Hunting Rifle Mission Creep [Re: FrankR] #1015956 07/02/11 03:26 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,005
jeepdriver Offline
Body Damage is Cool
When I did reload a good bit I never bothered with run-out testing...I simply turned the case slightly as I seated the bullet. I do have one good friend who is a nit-picking freak when it comes down to reloading, but he is recoil shy so all things considered he doesn't shoot that much better than I do.

You might have to get some really agressive bore cleaner to munch that copper out of there in your lifetime, LOL!! I would suggest taking the rifle to a gunshop and asking them if they had the items needed to measure the cartridge OAL when you stuff the bullet into the lands. Then measure the OAL of the best factory loads you have. I impact bullet puller can be used to lightly tap the bullets out of the case a tiny bit, then you would need a press and dies to reseat the bullets to the proper length.

If you are near Columbia, SC, call Mark at Dana Safety Supply, 4601 Broad River Road, Columbia, SC 29210-4015
(803) 798-3670 and ask if he would know of somebody who would be willing to help you. I met Mark briefly once at the store here, but have bought three guns from him over the phone. He is a helpful, knowledgeable guy. Tell him Bruce the mailman suggested he call.


Too many 4x4's, not enough time or money
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