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Re: Lockers, Lockers ,Lockers. [Re: Davey] #1041745 10/29/13 02:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 62
Davey Offline
Getting the Wheeling Fever
After lots of searching and investigating several options, I decided to have some shims made to tighten up the tolerances for the TrackFinder install.
The original thrust washers were 2.1mm, with spacer/pinion shaft clearance of about 0.85mm.
Max spec clearance for the locker is 0.5mm.
2nd torn down diff had similar clearance as the first, but with 2.0mm washers.
So I got some 0.7mm 316 stainless shims laser cut, to use with the 2.0mm washers but in the ORIGINAL diff, gaining me 0.6mm overall each side.
It's now all within spec, assembled and ready for install <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just waiting for my pinion bearings to be pressed on the 5.38 gearsets.


Long a$$ 2000 Sporty, auto, 5.38 gears, TF front locker, 4"+ front lift (Kings +40 springs, 50mm spacers, 1.5" diff drop), TJ 104 rears 3" + 50mm coil spacers, 1.5" body lift, 31/10.5r15's on 15x8 Kings (ET-13), WARN manuals, Smart Bar, spotties
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Re: Lockers, Lockers ,Lockers. [Re: Davey] #1041746 11/04/13 01:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 62
Davey Offline
Getting the Wheeling Fever
Finally installed <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />

Front TF locker tightened up with 0.7mm shims, plus 5.38 gearsets front n rear.

First impressions?
Steering (in 4WD) is heavier, alot more front end "push" on soft surfaces. As expected.

Quieter than I expected, only clunked it once so far too.

Climbing abilities - outstanding!
When trialling on loose rocky dirt, traction at the front on one wheel will pull the vehicle sideways, something to be wary of. Bit of steering into it helps.
Much less need (if any) to rely on momentum to get you though some big holes, so much easier on the underside, and the occupants!

Would I consider replacing the rear LSD with a 2nd locker?
Already am <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />


Long a$$ 2000 Sporty, auto, 5.38 gears, TF front locker, 4"+ front lift (Kings +40 springs, 50mm spacers, 1.5" diff drop), TJ 104 rears 3" + 50mm coil spacers, 1.5" body lift, 31/10.5r15's on 15x8 Kings (ET-13), WARN manuals, Smart Bar, spotties
Re: Lockers, Lockers ,Lockers. [Re: Davey] #1041747 12/11/13 02:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 62
Davey Offline
Getting the Wheeling Fever
Posted this elsewhere, but here's what our little KIA can get up to <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMSf3lOWHWM


Long a$$ 2000 Sporty, auto, 5.38 gears, TF front locker, 4"+ front lift (Kings +40 springs, 50mm spacers, 1.5" diff drop), TJ 104 rears 3" + 50mm coil spacers, 1.5" body lift, 31/10.5r15's on 15x8 Kings (ET-13), WARN manuals, Smart Bar, spotties
Re: Lockers, Lockers ,Lockers. [Re: Davey] #1041748 12/12/13 02:01 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 167
BAZINGA Offline
Wheeler
Go the mighty Kia!


99 Auto Sportage. Wildcat Extractors, Lukey Turbo Muffler, Warn manual hubs, K&N Air filter, Tyres 30/9.5/15, Ironman 40mm springs, KYB front struts & rear shocks, GME TX3220 UHF radio, dual battery system. Twin 10" electric fans. Next Job: Body lift
Re: Lockers, Lockers ,Lockers. [Re: BAZINGA] #1041749 02/16/14 06:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 22
T
Tommychu Offline
Need a Spot
I'm thinking about welding my front diff and installing a factory clutch LSD in the back so it's still well-mannered on the street. TF is a little outside my budget and welding is free since we just got a stick welder at work. My question is, is the front end (CVs, etc) strong enough that I wouldn't have to worry about breaking anything? I've got manual front hubs.

Re: Lockers, Lockers ,Lockers. [Re: Tommychu] #1041750 02/16/14 07:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 326
Peabody Offline
Mudrunner
Welding the front diff is a bad idea. The difference in the wheels' rotational speed is much greater in the front end vs the rear when turning. Factor in a series of articulating joints on the front where the rear has none and you've got a recipe for mechanical failure. Rear axles can get away with "Lincoln Lockers" (welding) or spools to some degree because the difference in wheel speed isn't as great and all the output goes to a single set of shafts. And from what I've heard from those who have tried, steering with a welded front end is nothing less than squirrely, to say the least. I'd say try looking for a used Mazda Miata LSD (geared/Torsen or clutch) for the front. They are a drop-in fit for the 7" front end of the Kia. I would go with the Torsen because they are strong and won't blow the clutches if you slam a wheel down after getting it in the air... And they don't need special gear oil, either.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />

Note: I have an extra OBX geared LSD that I've modded extensively to make "bulletproof". I'm running one in my front axle and haven't had a single problem with it since making the mod. There's a thread here on the forum that explains all the work done. If you (or anyone) is interested in buying the extra OBX diff, modded as shown, send me a PM...


1997 Sportage 4x4, auto-trans, Warn manual hubs, 4" UPYOURKIA front lift, TJ 106AA rear springs, 2-5/8" body lift, 31x10.50 treads, SmittyBilt SRC front and XRC rear bumper, swing-out tire mount, OBX LSD front diff, Track Finder rear locker, 5.38 R&Ps and... really crappy gas mileage! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shiner.gif" alt="" />
Re: Lockers, Lockers ,Lockers. [Re: Tommychu] #1041751 02/17/14 12:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 167
BAZINGA Offline
Wheeler
Quote
I'm thinking about welding my front diff. TF is a little outside my budget and welding is free since we just got a stick welder at work. My question is, is the front end (CVs, etc) strong enough that I wouldn't have to worry about breaking anything? I've got manual front hubs.


I had been thinking about this too. You would need to think long and hard before welding the front diff. Once done, you can't change your mind!


99 Auto Sportage. Wildcat Extractors, Lukey Turbo Muffler, Warn manual hubs, K&N Air filter, Tyres 30/9.5/15, Ironman 40mm springs, KYB front struts & rear shocks, GME TX3220 UHF radio, dual battery system. Twin 10" electric fans. Next Job: Body lift
Re: Lockers, Lockers ,Lockers. [Re: Peabody] #1041752 02/17/14 12:46 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 167
BAZINGA Offline
Wheeler
Quote
Welding the front diff is a bad idea. The difference in the wheels' rotational speed is much greater in the front end vs the rear when turning. Factor in a series of articulating joints on the front where the rear has none and you've got a recipe for mechanical failure. Rear axles can get away with "Lincoln Lockers" (welding) or spools to some degree because the difference in wheel speed isn't as great and all the output goes to a single set of shafts. And from what I've heard from those who have tried, steering with a welded front end is nothing less than squirrely, to say the least. I'd say try looking for a used Mazda Miata LSD (geared/Torsen or clutch) for the front. They are a drop-in fit for the 7" front end of the Kia. I would go with the Torsen because they are strong and won't blow the clutches if you slam a wheel down after getting it in the air... And they don't need special gear oil, either.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />

Note: I have an extra OBX geared LSD that I've modded extensively to make "bulletproof". I'm running one in my front axle and haven't had a single problem with it since making the mod. There's a thread here on the forum that explains all the work done. If you (or anyone) is interested in buying the extra OBX diff, modded as shown, send me a PM...


Would this also work with an auto transmission?


99 Auto Sportage. Wildcat Extractors, Lukey Turbo Muffler, Warn manual hubs, K&N Air filter, Tyres 30/9.5/15, Ironman 40mm springs, KYB front struts & rear shocks, GME TX3220 UHF radio, dual battery system. Twin 10" electric fans. Next Job: Body lift
Re: Lockers, Lockers ,Lockers. [Re: Peabody] #1041753 02/17/14 06:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 22
T
Tommychu Offline
Need a Spot
Clutch LSD on a 7" was an option on the S4 FC RX7, it was never offered on the Miata (Miatas all got helical or viscous). That said, of all the available options that clutch LSD would be my second choice after a TF. Rebuild parts are still available, they handle shock loading well and they're overall pretty tough. The only problem I have is that they're going for upwards of $400 for a worn unit in need of a rebuild, and they're nearly impossible to find in a junkyard.

I'm not sure why you're saying a helical LSD takes shock loading better than a clutch type. In a clutch LSD the clutches are there to limit relative motion between the side gears, that's all they do. When a shock load occurs the only thing that happens to the clutches is they stop rubbing against each other, all the load is taken by the side gears and spiders (which have their own limits, and are basically the most likely thing to fail in this situation in any diff that is not helical/torsen or Detroit/Ratchet-style like the TF) and transferred to the carrier. It's the one wheel spinning that the clutches don't like since they're being forced to rub against each other at high speed under the preload of the springs (and really, if it's set up tight enough that shouldn't happen in the first place but I digress).

Compare this to a helical where the outer worm gears simultaneously provide the differential action, control that action with their friction as they rub against the end of their bores in the carrier and handle all of the torque that is being fed from the carrier to the axle shaft- in this case you're still heating those little worm gears doing your one wheel peel and then when the shock load comes down they take it the same way the spiders and side gears would in an open or clutch diff.
The factory Miata torsens are famous for handling shock load very poorly indeed. It's not uncommon for a stock BP Miata to grenade its diff just coming off an icy patch onto dry asphalt under moderate to heavy throttle. Also why do you think the Torsen wasn't an option on the 7" diff in an RX7?
I'm not trying to badmouth the Torsen here either. It's an awesome design. For a road car application that doesn't see near-zero traction situations or shock loads often it's perfect. I am putting a Torsen in the transaxle I'm building for my DD. But it's not ideally a design I want to run in a rig that I'm going to be snot-bagging in the middle of nowhere.

Bazinga: front diffs were the same on all Sportages regardless of year, trans, or any other factor. There were a few different rear diffs, based on whether it was early 26spl or late 28spl, LSD or open, ABS or non-ABS.

Last edited by Tommychu; 02/17/14 06:39 AM.
Re: Lockers, Lockers ,Lockers. [Re: Tommychu] #1041754 02/17/14 08:29 AM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 326
Peabody Offline
Mudrunner
Bazinga - The diff setup doesn't have an impact on the transmission type. A Torsen/helical LSD will work fine with a manual or automatic transmission... If I understood your questions correctly.

Tommychu - Racing on pavement or even or dirt at speed, such as rally racing, is completely different from off-roading 4x4 style. Here's what I know from my own experience and that of others...

- Torsens are stronger for 4x4-style driving because they function as a solid chunk of metal. The gears only turn when there is enough of a difference in the wheel speed to allow it. The gears do not rotate at a high rate of speed. They counter-rotate slowly, thus allowing the power transfer to be split more effectively between the wheels when wheel speeds or traction conditions vary. All that stuff about gears turning fast and overheating is a bunch of bunk.

- Clutch systems tend to react to load by tightening up. If you get a wheel in the air and slam it down, all that energy is transferred to the clutch pack, which will tighten up due to the load. This is how a clutch pack can grenade when used on a 4x4. Sure, they work good on the pavement. But I'm talking about dirt. I got this bit of info from my local 4x4 shop. The guys recommended I stay away from the clutch LSDs, specifically for that reason.

- I've heard lots of people comment that Torsens are bad on the trail because you lose all power transfer if you get a wheel free-spinning. This is true to some extent and isn't favorable on the race track when running at speed. But on the trail, all you have to do is touch the brake pedal and you'll have power going to the wheel with traction. If you know how to operate the equipment, you won't have a problem. By the way, this is what they teach Humvee drivers in the US military. Because the Humvee uses 3 Torsens for it's traction system: 1 in the rear diff, 1 in the front and 1 in the transfer case. The Hummer ain't no rally car or an RX-7. It's made to go places those Barbie-rigs can only dream of... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />

[Linked Image]


1997 Sportage 4x4, auto-trans, Warn manual hubs, 4" UPYOURKIA front lift, TJ 106AA rear springs, 2-5/8" body lift, 31x10.50 treads, SmittyBilt SRC front and XRC rear bumper, swing-out tire mount, OBX LSD front diff, Track Finder rear locker, 5.38 R&Ps and... really crappy gas mileage! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shiner.gif" alt="" />
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