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Re: Transplant 6G74 engine into a 6G72 Montero Sport? [Re: ES_97Sport] #1046019 03/19/14 04:00 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,649
fasteddy Offline
Web Wheeler
*****
Only one thought, how about putting the second timing map enable switch on the mode shifter. 2nd map enables only in 4hL or 4lolocked?

I bet your load is derived from tps position. What would happen if you also enabled some extra resistance in the tps signal circuit in the above two modes, or perhaps in 4LL only?


Not responsible for advice not taken...
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Re: Transplant 6G74 engine into a 6G72 Montero Sport? [Re: fasteddy] #1046020 03/22/14 12:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Quote
Only one thought, how about putting the second timing map enable switch on the mode shifter. 2nd map enables only in 4hL or 4lolocked?


Yep. That's easily doable. The F/IC just requires that the line be grounded, so I can tap a relay into the 4WD circuit and patch that into the F/IC wire in place of the LED switch I have now.

That's a good idea. Hadn't considered that.

Quote
I bet your load is derived from tps position. What would happen if you also enabled some extra resistance in the tps signal circuit in the above two modes, or perhaps in 4LL only?


Load on the F/IC is from a built in MAP which is taped into a vacuum port on my manifold, and the timing and fuel changes in the F/IC are based on that.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the TPS, though. ??

--

Guess I spoke too soon. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I thought I had a bad #3 injector, but after changing that out it looks like the #3 injector driver in the F/IC is faulty. No problems in the injector harness or the F/IC harness that I can see so unless it's in the main harness to the ECM ... sigh. Oh, well, can't have things go TOO well. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transplant 6G74 engine into a 6G72 Montero Sport? [Re: ES_97Sport] #1046021 03/24/14 07:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Quote
Guess I spoke too soon. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I thought I had a bad #3 injector, but after changing that out it looks like the #3 injector driver in the F/IC is faulty. No problems in the injector harness or the F/IC harness that I can see so unless it's in the main harness to the ECM ... sigh. Oh, well, can't have things go TOO well. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


ARG! Ok. Its NOT the F/IC. I picked up a second for the other '97 build, loaded and installed it and I'm still getting the P0203. I checked the two solder connections on the Boomslang and redid those just to make absolutely sure I didn't hork up a solder joint. That had no affect so it looks like I probably have a problem in the main harness from the ECM to the injector harness. Dealership checked the injector harness and replaced injector three so I KNOW those aren't causing issues. The last thing to double check is the ECM. I'll swap my spare back in - not that I expect this to make a difference, but I want to be sure before I have the techs double check the main harness. Sigh. Always something .... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

On a more positive note ... after blowing a tank of gas testing and tuning this weekend, I think I'm moving forward. I think I've got most of the hic-cups worked out - at least below 3K. Working on the in town 4K plus range now.

I THINK this will work with a single map for on and off road. I took it up Sunday and did some 2-3 mile runs at 12 to 20ish degrees in 4LO and 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear - so low load, high RPM and high vacuum. I'm going to keep working on it, but I've managed to drop the ECTs from about 220 to a max of 213. So, progress of a sort .... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transplant 6G74 engine into a 6G72 Montero Sport? [Re: ES_97Sport] #1046022 03/25/14 06:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,613
OldColt Offline
Roll Me Over
*****
Years ago I was working with a Greddy Emange of a 4G63 turbo setup. This unit works fine as far as conditioning the airflow readings but smokes the injector drivers out of the ECU if trying to work with outputs.
Since that happened I do not install anything between the ECU and the injectors to condition the tune.
I am curious if this maybe what happened in your setup.


Cheers, Charlie
If It ain't broke, Modify it!
87 Montero turbo Converted back in 1989
95 Montero SR 3.8 DOHC First one?
93 Pajero 3 door 6G75 Mivec with paddle shifted 5 speed
Will a 94 Macrocab Twin turbo with a 6 speed be next?
Re: Transplant 6G74 engine into a 6G72 Montero Sport? [Re: OldColt] #1046023 03/27/14 05:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Quote
Years ago I was working with a Greddy Emange of a 4G63 turbo setup. This unit works fine as far as conditioning the airflow readings but smokes the injector drivers out of the ECU if trying to work with outputs.
Since that happened I do not install anything between the ECU and the injectors to condition the tune.
I am curious if this maybe what happened in your setup.


I've heard of that, but not on the F/IC with Mitsubishi. And I'd expect that to be random and not just #3. I swapped ECMs and the problem still exists. Also, the problem disappears the minute the loopback plugs are install irrespective of the ECM installed.

We're testing the main harnesses now. See how that goes. The new ECM came in today so i'll swap that in this weekend and check it.

For grins, if the harness checks out, I'm going to swap in the first rev ECM and see what happens.

AFAIK, if you smoke an injector driver in the ECM you loose functionality on that cylinder, correct? Thing runs like a top with no driveability or idle issues.

Thoughts?

Edit:

Ok. Wiring harness tested fine. All injectors, injector harness, main harnesses to the ECM - nothing. Tests the same across all injectors.

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 03/27/14 06:02 PM.

'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transplant 6G74 engine into a 6G72 Montero Sport? [Re: ES_97Sport] #1046024 04/04/14 01:08 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Ok. Took it to the dealership and the tech and I went through EVERYTHING. Every injector, the entire harness all the way to the ECM, the Boomslang/FIC harness and the ECM.

Found out I had a bad EGR solenoid and a defective/deformed A/C belt in the process. And, that everything checked out perfectly. Sigh. Well, I guess that good in a way. I also swapped the first rev ECM in last weekend and still got the same thing so it's not ECM version specific. I even swaped F/ICs so its not the F/IC, either.

The AEM guys have been really helpful going through this. Got to give them credit for that and their product is working perfectly.

They're getting me a replacement for the 20 pin F/IC harness out so I can swap injector #3 over to injector channel #7 or #8. I don't know how it can be but it looks like there's something wonky with injector driver #3 in the F/IC. Can't figure out what it could be that would only affect just the '97. There are a couple other Sports running F/ICs without any issues and tons of Eclipse, etc. guys running the F/IC 6 and F/IC 8. Weird.

I have a spare 20 pin harness - and my 1-BAR GM MAP came in - so I'll rewire #3 over to a spare driver and see what happens this weekend.

I am going to swap back to the 5.38 gears next week. The 4.90s are just not working out. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The 4.90s dump it into Open Loop WAY too often and its really affecting mileage. Three extended highway climbs and the altitude at the new house is just killing me.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transplant 6G74 engine into a 6G72 Montero Sport? [Re: ES_97Sport] #1046025 04/08/14 08:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Quote
Ok. Took it to the dealership and the tech and I went through EVERYTHING. Every injector, the entire harness all the way to the ECM, the Boomslang/FIC harness and the ECM. ... They're (AEM) getting me a replacement for the 20 pin F/IC harness out so I can swap injector #3 over to injector channel #7 or #8. ...


Ok, well that didn't work. I swapped #3 injector over to #7 injector driver on the F/IC and nothing changed. Pending P0203 immediately on key on and latter P0203 and CEL.

I'm stumped. I'm taking my stock '97 back home tonight so this weekend I'll swap the entire harness into it and see if I still have the same problem on a different vehicle.

Can't figure it out. There's NOTHING apparently different between any of the six injectors and harness, but the code comes up only on injector #3. If it comes up on my other Sport, I'm really stumped cause that rules out wiring. At that point I guess its narrowed down to the ECM and something slightly wonky with injector driver #3 on both the first and second gen ECMs. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Quote
I am going to swap back to the 5.38 gears next week. The 4.90s are just not working out. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The 4.90s dump it into Open Loop WAY too often and its really affecting mileage. Three extended highway climbs and the altitude at the new house is just killing me. ...


Gears are going in right now as I type. smile Gonna miss the 4.90s but they really screw with the ECM in unpleasant ways. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Can't run 1500+ lbs of extra weight and then decrease the gearing and not expect the ECM programming to have problems, I guess.

The good part - aside from the P0203 - is the F/IC is working great even though it wasn't ever intended for NA vehicle use. The only thing I REALLY WISH it did was read out or log timing AFTER the timing map has been applied. I've got so many spreadsheets to translate all the data now I can't keep track of them all. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/zombie.gif" alt="" />

I wired in the Innovate SSI-4 and 1-BAR MAP last weekend only to find out that both of the MAP sensors sent (by two different companies, no less) are 3-BAR MAPs. Stupid. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" /> After spending most of Saturday figuring that out and correcting my wiring - when they say in the docs 'this is NOT A GROUND', I guess they mean it smile - I find out that Palmer Performance doesn't actually support the SSI-4 in ScanXL. So, I STILL can't get MAP data into a useful tool.

I DID, however, learn that timing can be gathered by the SSI-4 - if I can figure out how to hook it up. Those are questions I need to ask in another thread. smile

What I need is an application that will log RPM, MAP and timing. ScanXL (OBD-II) gives me RPM and timing, but extrapolated MAP and that's not terribly accurate (more like not accurate at all). I was counting on getting MAP in through the SSI-4. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> If I have to install two SSI-4s (timing before the F/IC and after) just to get this data I'm not going to be real happy. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

If anyone has any idea how to do this I'm open to suggestions.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transplant 6G74 engine into a 6G72 Montero Sport? [Re: ES_97Sport] #1046026 04/19/14 12:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Quote
I am going to swap back to the 5.38 gears next week. The 4.90s are just not working out. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The 4.90s dump it into Open Loop WAY too often ....


Done. The ECM is now a lot happier. Only dropping into OL-Drive occasionally - about as often as my stock '97.

Quote
I wired in the Innovate SSI-4 and 1-BAR MAP last weekend ....


Done. I wired in the second MAP as Barometer on the SSI-4. I had plans to use this but its largely useless since ...

Quote
I find out that Palmer Performance doesn't actually support the SSI-4 in ScanXL. So, I STILL can't get MAP data into a useful tool.


Apparently the only Innovate product that interfaces with ScanXL Pro is the LM-1 which has been superseded by the LM-2 (which doesn't work in ScanXL, either) years ago.

Quote
I DID, however, learn that timing can be gathered by the SSI-4 - if I can figure out how to hook it up. Those are questions I need to ask in another thread. smile


No longer. That functionality was removed by Innovate several years ago.

Quote
What I need is an application that will log RPM, MAP and timing. ....


Finally gave up getting this thing running by next week so I canceled our usual April Moab trip. Sucks. I was hoping to meet up with guys from the dealership at Area BFE.

I did manage to figure this out, however. Its not great and cost yet more $$$ but it seems to work.

I finally concluded I had two options. Dump Innovate and go with PLX or Zeitronix to get MAP into software that would do a scatter chart with RPM, MAP and timing or get yet more Innovate stuff. I still don't know if either of the first two companies' stuff will work and its impossible to get ANY information from PPE on whether their 'support' actually works. Frankly, I'm so pissed at PPE at this point I'm ready to dump them all together except I can't find an alternative product. I'm really tired of companies that behave like a bunch of squirrels - off chasing every shinny thing that catches their eye.

Anyway, while I was getting the SSI-4 working I did some poking through Logworks - Innovates logging software. Lots of functionality wrapped around their products and a little buggy, but it does custom scatter charts based on anything you can log. The only device they have that you can pull timing from is the OT-2 - an OBD-II J/CAN device - so, I picked one up off Amazon.

After taking a few hours to devote to being an idiot, going back and re-reading the docs a couple times and learning how to configure an MTS chain, screwing it up and redoing it, I finally got Logworks reading RPM, Timing, MAP, BARO, both O2 sensors, ECT, IAT and OL/CL. Did a hour and a half log, replayed it with the chart and whooohoooo! - there is was! Uh, then I figured out I had the scaling on my MAP sensor off. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/notooth.gif" alt="" />

At this point I'm just glad to have something working even if it is kludgey. As a bonus, it turns out that my Motorola Xoom 2 (non-US) tablet supports AdHoc networking which is the ONLY way to attach to the OT-2 other than USB (which doesn't support MTS) and MTS (which doesn't give full OBD-II access). DashCommand works mostly with the OT-2 which is more than I expected. WiFi access is (officially) only for Apple (which supports AdHoc), since Verizon and the rest have a stranglehold on Android functionality in the US. The level of BS excuses from the Android bunch re: AdHoc is amazing. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" />

So, now I have the F/IC, and SSI-4 and an OT-2 and two GM MAP sensors to mount. Somewhere. I'm running out of room under the console. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" /> Oh, and I haven't even begun to consider getting my LC-1 WB installed. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I had to replace the (mitsu) MAP, EGR and EVAP solenoids this week and I'm starting to think I have one or more injectors leaking. I'm replacing both O2 sensors this weekend. Hopefully that's the problem. Since last August it's been getting progressively worse gas mileage. Every time I fix something it runs better but the mileage goes down. And, it's not the F/IC. I pulled that out this morning and absolutely nothing changed except it ran crappy without the timing adjustments.

I updated the docs with all the new stuff and a couple changes I had to make to wiring ...

ECM, F/IC & Innovate Diagrams

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transplant 6G74 engine into a 6G72 Montero Sport? [Re: FrankR] #1046027 04/19/14 04:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,649
fasteddy Offline
Web Wheeler
*****
I'd be interested in seeing the temp range across the radiator, side to side and top to bottom. The infrared heat sensor guns are getting pretty cheap.


Not responsible for advice not taken...
Re: Transplant 6G74 engine into a 6G72 Montero Sport? [Re: fasteddy] #1046028 04/21/14 10:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Quote
I'd be interested in seeing the temp range across the radiator, side to side and top to bottom. The infrared heat sensor guns are getting pretty cheap.


?? Was this something you wanted to see from my Sport with the new radiator?

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
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