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Re: Judging interest for group buy 4D56T (Hyundai D4BF) [Re: ryany] #1075408 12/09/14 02:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline
Rock Warrior
*****
Quote
Quote
Had Mitsubishi done a better job originally...who knows what the community would be today.


You mean if Mitsubishi HADN'T done as good of a job in the first place? If Mitsu had built Monteros to Jeep levels of engineering and quality then there would be far more aftermarket parts available because you wouldn't be able to do any serious 4-wheeling without breaking something. Montero owners are accustomed to being able to drive their vehicles for tens of thousands of miles with little or no repair cost beyond maintenance. Jeep owners are familiar with having to regularly spend money on their vehicles just to keep them running. It IS a different type of person that drives a Montero, but I think it's directly related to the quality of the vehicle itself.


True. But I think were there more aftermarket products available irrespective of the quality of the vehicles there's be more people who do spend money. As an enthusiast group, we're a little lopsided. smile

Quote
Yep, it is definitely a different community. What every other enthusiast community spends on there rigs must average 20X this one. I think its because there are less "hardcore" enthusiasts here, and more just folks that like the Montero and cheap off-road ride to play around with. ....


Lloyd +1 No, I think they're just cheep. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But, i still remember the reaming I got when I did the SAS.

Edward


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Re: Judging interest for group buy 4D56T (Hyundai D4BF) [Re: ES_97Sport] #1075409 12/10/14 09:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 593
DR1665 Offline
Rock Warrior
Preach it, Ryan. (And this sort of thing really burns me, so hang on.)

I'd be willing to bet something like 9.9 out of 10 Wranglers you see around town these days are TJ/JK. According to Wikipedia, 1999-2013, they sold over 210,000 TJ/JK Jeeps. Let's be generous and say they sold 300k over the 15 year period ending this month. 300,000 TJs/JKs over 15 years. Impressive, right? They're selling more Wranglers than ever before. Except, wait. They sold 685,000 YJs in a 9 year period from 87-96.

More than twice as many YJs were sold in 9 years than TJs/JKs in 15. And how many YJs do we see out there anymore? I'm sure there are plenty of them, but seeing a YJ in the wild is pretty rare, in my experience. But let's make this even crazier. Crazier than a bedbug. (You guys got me Googling around for numbers.) From what I'm seeing on Wikipedia, more than 1,513,000 Jeep CJs were built, not counting military, oddball, and the 200,000 J3s Mitsubishi made between 1953-1998. How often do you see a CJ on the street? On the trail?

SO, let's run these numbers...

300,000 TJ/JKs
685,000 YJs
379,000 CJ7s
603,000 CJ5s
196,000 CJ3Bs (not counting 200,000 Mitsubishi J3s)
132,000 CJ3As
213,000 CJ2As
2,508,000 (civilian) Jeep Wranglers sold since 1945.

If Jeep's doing it right, how come 12% of all Jeeps sold since 1945 represent better than 90% of the Jeeps we see on a daily basis?

2,208,000 non-TJ/JKs sold in the last 70 years. And how often do we see them? Once every blue moon? Yeah, I know. The old CJs are classics and limited somewhat by older technology, and you probably wouldn't want to beat on one out on the trail much these days anyways as they're kinda collectible, but really, to suggest Mitsubishi did something wrong because they didn't follow Jeep's footsteps? Well, I don't buy it. 2.2 million non-TJ/JKs sold over 70 years, and all you really see are mall crawlers with a superficial, dealer installed cosmetics assembled in the last decade or so.

Let's take it further! Mitsubishi had been building the CJ-3A-based J3 for just under 30 years when they decided to build their own SWB 4WD vehicle. Gen 1, anyone? That experience building Jeeps influenced the design and development of the Pajero. Which is where they got the original drivetrain for the Group B Starion, which was refined to become the the Galant VR4, which you might say began evolving in earnest in 1992 with the arrival of the first Lancer Evolution, a model so loved, MMC announces they're retiring the Evo after 10 generations and everybody loses their fricking minds.

Oh, and how many times has a Jeep won Dakar? Oh yeah. That's right. None. (I think 3 entered in 2014, all privately owned.) Mitsubishi, on the other hand, is among the winningest manufacturers to ever run the event, having won 12 times - 7 in a row at one point. They're a rally company, remember, not an exo-caged, POS huntin' truck manufacturer (though they tend to do alright in that regard as well).

But wait! There's more! Effective 1964, President Johnson, in an act of good old fashioned closet fascism, extended the chicken tax (which was originally setup to balance trade after the war from cheap poultry from Europe) to light trucks. 25% tariff on any light truck not made in America. THAT'S why you don't have Mitsubishi trucks in America anymore. Because they're THAT good and would likely away at the Big 3's sales. What are the Big 3 selling most these days? That's right! Full-sized trucks and SUVs.

A loaded, Gen 5 Pajero will set you back AU$58,000 right now in Brisbane, Australia. That's US$48,000. With that 25% chicken tax tacked on, it's US$60k for a well-equipped Pajero in the US. How many Pajeros you think Mitsubishi is going to sell when you can go across the street and pick up a loaded Tahoe for US$50k?

Absent policy absolving the Big 3 from real, global competition, Mitsubishi would be cleaning house with light trucks over here - just like they do pretty much everywhere else in the world they sell them. Jeep sells the Grand Cherokee for right around US$40k. The new Pajero might not have the rock crawling chops of the Cherokee, but it's certainly a better pedigree than the Tahoe, which I'd suspect is a bit closer comparison. And look at that. Without the protectionism, you could probably pick up a well equipped Pajero with leather, power everything, lockers, and towing package for a couple grand less than that Tahoe. Given the way dealers are putting "cash on the hood" these days to move inventory, it's not a stretch to imagine picking up a Pajero 5 somewhere in the US$40-$45k range, making it very attractive, compared to the Tahoe, and a definite consideration for anyone shopping Grand Cherokees. (PS: Loaded, turbodiesel, 4WD Challe...aking the choice very difficult, indeed.) (Or maybe you prefer a crew cab, turbodiesel, 4WD Triton pickup for the equivalent of US$22,000.)

Meh. I'm clearly getting into rant territory, but I cut my teeth on Mitsubishis and have been following along going on 20 years now. Always bugs me when some Johnny-come-lately (present company excluded, of course) starts prattling on and on with criticism of Mitsubishi's way of doing business. I see it here with comparison of the 4WD aftermarket, but nowhere near like it is in the DSM/Evo community. Bunch of people who never bought a new Mitsubishi in the first place, oblivious to the fact that means they're neither Mitsubishi's customer nor concern, willfully ignorant to the great things MMC has been doing in Colorado these past 3 years. That's technology both Evo and Pajero fans should be drooling over, frankly.

The biggest problem Mitsubishi faces is being too progressive for something like 98% of their fanboys. Call me a 2%er. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" />


Brian DR1665 | GBXM | Gearheads United.
89 Raider SWB [rock] | 91 Galant VR4 [roller]
Re: Judging interest for group buy 4D56T (Hyundai D4BF) [Re: JohnnyBfromPeoria] #1075410 12/10/14 04:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,129
TOASTY Offline
Trail Leader
*****
Right on the Money Ryan.


Brian, i'm forwarding your rant to MMNA <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> they love numbers.


1999 Montero Blizzard package

1991 Montero RS
Re: Judging interest for group buy 4D56T (Hyundai D4BF) [Re: DR1665] #1075411 12/10/14 05:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,431
plh Offline OP
Body Damage is Cool
Not sure where Wiki gets the data, but its way off for JK. 2014 calender year is 230K for the 2 door and 4 door combined.

Here is what I know

2014 - 230K
2013 - 225K
2012 - 195K
2011 - 165K


  • 88 Raider: 5 spd, 4.62 LSD F & R, T/L, OME Rear Springs, KYB G/A, 33/12.5/15" MTZs, PLH LOs, Justice Bumper, Dual Bouncies, 4D56T in -running soon!
  • 1992 RS M/T
  • 1993 SR
  • 2005 Montero LTD
  • Gen 1 - PARTS FOR SALE
  • http://www.tuffpans.com
Re: Judging interest for group buy 4D56T (Hyundai D4BF) [Re: plh] #1075412 12/10/14 10:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 593
DR1665 Offline
Rock Warrior
Quote
Not sure where Wiki gets the data, but its way off for JK. 2014 calender year is 230K for the 2 door and 4 door combined.

Here is what I know

2014 - 230K
2013 - 225K
2012 - 195K
2011 - 165K


I stuck to the single source, crowdsourced though it may be, for consistency. My numbers were more for illustrative purposes than business intelligence.

Your figures come up to 815,000. Let's just call it an even 1,000,000 TJ/JKs. This makes the grand total 3,208,000 Jeeps sold (not counting Cherokee, Patriot, et al.). Even then, a million TJ/JKs represents 31% of all Wranglers sold. It's still less than a third of over 70 years production. Where are the rest of them?

Assuming one were to run global sales numbers for the Pajero (not counting Challenger, Triton, Delica (MY PRECIOUS!)) in similar fashion to what I did the other night, we might get closer to an apples-to-apples comparison. But let's forget those global numbers altogether. The TJ came out in 1996 as a 1997 model. (I'll always remember this, as I was looking to order a 97 Wrangler in the summer of 1996 when I ended up driving away in the Eagle Talon they had on the showroom floor.) CJ7 was sold from 1976 to 1986, and YJ was sold through 1996.

How often do we see these old Jeeps running around? How often do we see old Pajeros running around? I know, as Mitsubishi owners, we're more likely to spot Mitsubishis than Jeeps, BUT we're also off-roaders, with a pretty keen eye for others we think "get it." Square headlight Jeeps are a special thing. CJs even moreso. As we're always on the lookout for cool wheels, we stand a better chance of most, but I'm not ruling out confirmation bias, here, ya know?

Long story short(er, -ish), I'd be willing to bet, if we had access to reputable numbers, comparing the number of Jeep Wranglers and Pajeros sold in North America in the years when both were available - 1982?-1996 - with the numbers still registered as being on the road, you'd see the old Mitsubishis are, as a percentage, just as common as the Jeeps. Personally, I actually believe you'd see MORE old Pajeros on the road than their AMC/DCX contemporaries, to be honest.

It's all internet fanboi speculation, but like I said, I've been watching Mitsubishi for a long time. I see their world class truck light truck offerings cut off at the knee by crony capitalism, and I see their 2-steps-ahead-of-everyone-else business plan completely missed by my peers who would join me in wanton navel-gazing because zomgz they're killing the Evo and the supply of $1500, beat-ass DSMs dried up years ago, clearly Mitsubishi will be dead by next week, Tuesday.

Mitsubishi got burned a few years back when they offered 0% financing and no payments for something like a year to laughably "qualified" buyers. They're still here, and still focused on building their new lineup of environmentally friendly vehicles that aren't A) completely pedestrian (Nissan Leaf), B) marketing SNAFU (Chevy Volt), or C) more than you can afford, pal (Tesla S). They've got one of the fastest cars up Pike's Peak 3 years running - and it's 100% electric. That technology is coming to a Mitsubishi dealer near you sooner than any of us probably know. The humble iMiEV, golf cart extraordinaire? It's a Kei platform pushing 10 years old. If that's your basis for rolling your eyes at MMC, I've got a 3.1L Chevy Corsica that proves GM will never get a government bailout.

This is what they just announced on the international auto show circuit within the last month (in case you missed it):

[Linked Image]

That's the direction MMC is going. Is it a solid axle, dual locker, Dusy-buster? No, but they already offer such things. You don't like not being able to buy one here, don't complain to Mitsubishi. Complain to your elected "representatives" in the capitol. In the meantime, I am - to the chagrin of most on these intarwebz - a Mitsubishi customer, enthusiast, and believer. Ichimai-iwa, gentlemen. Ichimai-iwa.

Last edited by DR1665; 12/10/14 10:43 PM.

Brian DR1665 | GBXM | Gearheads United.
89 Raider SWB [rock] | 91 Galant VR4 [roller]
Re: Judging interest for group buy 4D56T (Hyundai D4BF) [Re: DR1665] #1075413 12/11/14 04:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 295
M
Malykaii Offline
Mudrunner
All this is too much, but I see the claim that mitsu is more reliable than jeep.

I don't think it's fair to compare brands, as everyone has a dud and a masterpiece.

I dont agree. Both my work cherokees were far more reliable than my montero. If it wasn't for the desire to have a unique car and no need for a reliable work truck, I'd have jumped the montero ship years ago.

I also don't think it's fair to argue that the percentage of wranglers still on the road is an indication of reliability. Its an impractical little truck, so people might be more inclined to junk it over a small repair while a 4door montero is more practical and worth fixing. Too many factors.


88 Montero, StarQuest turbo, Kormex 5speed +tuff-pan w/phoenix f. stage2 clutch, 4in lift+33' tires, 4.875 lsd, short-throw shifter, Aisin hubs, SR big brakes, gen2 uca's, elantra alt, and so much more... 16g turbo w/hardpipes + 4.90 locking disk-brake axle soon (maybe lsd or aussie front??)
Re: Judging interest for group buy 4D56T (Hyundai D4BF) [Re: Malykaii] #1075414 12/11/14 06:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,547
Angelo Offline
Roll Me Over
***
I'd like to see a new version of the Montero & 3000gt. Just more options to compete with.

But back to the original post. Plh, I'm interested in hearing more. My 99 motor took a poop on me 6-7 months ago. I won't be in the market for a new motor right now but will be in the near future! Thought about finding another motor and rebuilding but a diesel would sooo niiiice <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How much of a direct swap would this be? Motor, motor blocks, tranny mating up, clearance issues, harness, ecu? That would be my biggest delemia <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


99JAOS2"& OME 2"body 4.90s ARB HS9500i Skids&Ladder 16"315BFG JAOSRemote& Rack 3Row Rad IPF back& Searchlite 33TSL StreetLock HID Overhead Console/CB switchPanel FrARB RrLocker TJMSnorkel 160AAlt Sliders 2nd Tranny Cooler QuickAirII& Tank Rear frame/tank Lift
Re: Judging interest for group buy 4D56T (Hyundai D4BF) [Re: plh] #1075415 12/30/14 06:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,547
Angelo Offline
Roll Me Over
***
Ply, ever look any further into this?


99JAOS2"& OME 2"body 4.90s ARB HS9500i Skids&Ladder 16"315BFG JAOSRemote& Rack 3Row Rad IPF back& Searchlite 33TSL StreetLock HID Overhead Console/CB switchPanel FrARB RrLocker TJMSnorkel 160AAlt Sliders 2nd Tranny Cooler QuickAirII& Tank Rear frame/tank Lift
Re: Judging interest for group buy 4D56T (Hyundai D4BF) [Re: Angelo] #1075416 12/30/14 05:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,431
plh Offline OP
Body Damage is Cool
Quote
I'd like to see a new version of the Montero & 3000gt. Just more options to compete with.

But back to the original post. Plh, I'm interested in hearing more. My 99 motor took a poop on me 6-7 months ago. I won't be in the market for a new motor right now but will be in the near future! Thought about finding another motor and rebuilding but a diesel would sooo niiiice <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How much of a direct swap would this be? Motor, motor blocks, tranny mating up, clearance issues, harness, ecu? That would be my biggest delemia <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


It is not a direct swap into a V6 powered rig. It can be done, but will involve a lot of work. Assume you are looking at this for your '99?

I'm planning on this swap for my '92 V6 - but this is a much simpler machine than your '99.


  • 88 Raider: 5 spd, 4.62 LSD F & R, T/L, OME Rear Springs, KYB G/A, 33/12.5/15" MTZs, PLH LOs, Justice Bumper, Dual Bouncies, 4D56T in -running soon!
  • 1992 RS M/T
  • 1993 SR
  • 2005 Montero LTD
  • Gen 1 - PARTS FOR SALE
  • http://www.tuffpans.com
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