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Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero #1076052
01/05/15 04:39 AM
01/05/15 04:39 AM
P
poolecr  Offline OP
Need a Spot
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 14
Palmdale, CA
Hi all, I've been lurking and benefiting from the wealth of knowledge here for a few months, and I'm hoping you can help me out!

I recently picked up my first Montero, a 98 Gen 2.5 with winter package and 165,000 miles, in very good shape, WOO! Was enjoying the truck quite a lot, and quickly went ahead and did the timing belt, water pump, etc. The process seemed to go well, but afterward, I noticed the crank pulley was wobbling. Argh!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" /> However, I assumed it was possible that I'd been too rough on it or the rubber was going bad, so I pulled it off again and replaced with a new crank pulley. No improvement. Regretfully, I never looked at this before I tore into things, so it may have been doing this ever since I bought it. So, here are the details:

---------The wobble---------
-Appears RPM dependent, seemingly disappearing at higher RPM. Probably just a visual illusion, though.
-I initially thought it was temperature dependent... Oddly, the pulley seems much less wobbly when the engine is first started, then gets worse once it warms up. After further examination, I'd be willing to concede that it probably just seems this way due to the higher idle speed when the engine is cold.
-The alternator belt can be observed "dancing" slightly on its idler pulley, but not much. It seems to be a fairly subtle wobble, but that's still unacceptable!

---------What (I think) I did right---------
-The crank bolt is the newest design, with a new washer.
-The bolt is torqued to the full 135 ft*lb, I spent the time making a proper tool to ensure it was tight.
-The crank pulley is now brand new, lined up properly on the roll pin in the sprocket.
-The crank position blade and spacer are pressed firmly onto the t-belt sprocket, with the two small pins in place.
-Once fully torqued, the crank pulley is not loose, and can't be moved. It definitely seems to be tight.

---------What I'm suspicious of---------

1. The crank sprocket keyway looks undamaged, BUT appears larger than I would expect. The sprocket has nearly 1/2 tooth worth of rotational play on the crank when not torqued down. It fits rather loosely onto the crankshaft as well. Can anyone confirm if this is normal? The woodruff key itself is extremely tight in the crank keyway, so I didn't try to remove it.

2. The crank pulley was surprisingly easy to press onto the sprocket. It's a fairly loose fit until the bolt is torqued. When I first removed the original pulley, it was very tightly fused to the sprocket.

3. Could the replacement bolt+washer be slightly too long, bottoming out in the crank rather than applying the full torque to the pulley?

4. From what I've read, I gather it's fairly unlikely that the crank/bearings are actually bent/cracked/worn badly enough to cause this. Nonetheless, is there a reasonable method to check the snout runout?


.....

After the new balancer failed to fix it, I figured I might just drive the truck... but my gut just won't let me do that, just waiting for the bolt to snap and let that pulley loose. My next move would probably be to replace the crank sprocket, position blade, and spacer, unless there are better options.

Any input would be appreciated! I want to get this baby out on the trails... But I'd also like to make it back home.


1998 Gen 2.5 Montero w/ winter package
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Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076053
01/05/15 05:31 AM
01/05/15 05:31 AM
Jay Ayala  Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,758
Hillsboro, OR.
Hello and welcome to the forum poolecr.

I just performed a complete overhaul of the 3.5L in my old 1997 over the past summer. I do not recall any kind of loose fitting crank sprocket at all. As far as I remember it was a really snug fit going over the woodruff key. So was the harmonic balancer.

I noticed you mentioned that the sprocket was something you would want to replace. I think you are on the right track. You are right about the crank bearings, the wouldn't wear enough to cause a visible wobble problem with the crank pulley. I mean, I suppose they could get worn pretty badly, but you would probably experience some severe engine performance problems before you would notice an engine wobble.


89 Raider - V6, Automatic, rear LSD, A/C Retrofit, Cruise Control Retrofit.
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076054
01/05/15 02:06 PM
01/05/15 02:06 PM
plh  Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,422
Milwaukee Wisconsin
Quote
3. Could the replacement bolt+washer be slightly too long, bottoming out in the crank rather than applying the full torque to the pulley?


I'd start here. take the front pully (harmonic balancer) off, then by hand thread in the bolt and washer combo and make sure it can be screwed in flush to the end of the crank. Should spin in easily with your fingers all the way. Make sure the washer is installed in the correct direction too.

Woodruff key next maybe, but that is a lot of work being you have the timing belt on. Like starting that process over.


  • 88 Raider: 5 spd, 4.62 LSD F & R, T/L, OME Rear Springs, KYB G/A, 33/12.5/15" MTZs, PLH LOs, Justice Bumper, Dual Bouncies, 4D56T in -running soon!
  • 1992 RS M/T
  • 1993 SR
  • 2005 Montero LTD
  • Gen 1 - PARTS FOR SALE
  • http://www.tuffpans.com
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: plh] #1076055
01/05/15 04:00 PM
01/05/15 04:00 PM
K
Kevin C  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 6,131
Portland OR ****
Might also consider a quick ID / OD check of the damper and the crank. Also, compare the new damper's ID to the old.

Since the damper aligns to the OD of the crank and the face of the timing belt cog, I would take a look at those surfaces as well.

Is it possible that your new pulley is machined out of spec?


87 Turbo Intercooled Raider, roller cam, torsen rear diff, LSD front diff, lockup auto with modified converter, V6 brakes, low transfer case gears...
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: Kevin C] #1076056
01/05/15 05:23 PM
01/05/15 05:23 PM
JohnnyBfromPeoria  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,198
Phoenix, AZ *****
All three of the above responses are from experienced drivers of these trucks. I'd seriously take to heart what they are suggesting. Hopefully it's a relatively easy fix and you aren't going to have to go through a whole timing belt change again to find it.

In any case, I'd say your hunch to not drive it at this point is spot-on.

John B.


'87 Raider 2.6 Turbo Auto, Under Construction
'95 Montero SR, 35x12.5/15 BFG M/T KM-2's, Rock sliders, Qtr panel chop, gas tank lift, 2" BL, Aisins
'86 SWB, 2" BL, 33" BFG KM-2's, 2.4l KM-148
2012 Chevy Camaro LS V6/M6 IPF S/C
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: JohnnyBfromPeoria] #1076057
01/05/15 07:42 PM
01/05/15 07:42 PM
plh  Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,422
Milwaukee Wisconsin
Quote
1. The crank sprocket keyway looks undamaged, BUT appears larger than I would expect. The sprocket has nearly 1/2 tooth worth of rotational play on the crank when not torqued down. It fits rather loosely onto the crankshaft as well. Can anyone confirm if this is normal? The woodruff key itself is extremely tight in the crank keyway, so I didn't try to remove it.


This just caught my eye and maybe its just terminology differences...

1. The crank sprocket keyway - do you mean the woodruff slot machined into the end of the crankshaft? or the lower timing belt sprocket? either way - the woodruff key should be tight in the crankshaft, the timing belt sprocket and the harmonic balancer.

I just did the timing belt on my '92 last month. although not the same engine as yours, the concept is the same. The lower timing belt gear is not loose rotationally on the end of the crankshaft, it is a nice slip fit (not press) and should not be loose. Very precision machined tight tolerances on these components.

I replaced my woodruff key also, for sure it is held in the crankshaft very tightly, not a press fit, but close. I very carefully tapped it out of the crankshaft with a tiny screwdriver and soft mallet. After cleaning the crankshaft slot very well I pushed the new woodruff key in with my thumb. Its tight. Maybe even gently tapped it home with the soft mallet - don't quite remember. The woodruff key is a common size part. Cost me about $0.80 for a 10 pack at a hardware store.

I'm still leaning towards the bolt thou. Unless the inside diameter of your harmonic balancer is really oversize as Kevin mentions.

About your crankshaft bolt, does it look like the pink one in this photo?

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/at...072&thumb=1

Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: JohnnyBfromPeoria] #1076058
01/05/15 07:46 PM
01/05/15 07:46 PM
P
poolecr  Offline OP
Need a Spot
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 14
Palmdale, CA
Thanks for the great suggestions so far! I knew I came to the right place.

--Jay- I appreciate the sanity check on the sprocket fit. Sounds like mine has somehow degraded... Since the damper/pulley only fits over the sprocket and not the crank itself, I can see how this could be the source of my trouble.

Engine seems quite happy otherwise, so as you say, I don't think the bearings are that far gone.

--plh- Yes, the bolt length will be my first check once I get back to the truck (out of town this week). As for the washer direction- It appears symmetrical except for a small chamfer on one side of the inner diameter. Matching the original installation, I oriented this chamfer outward, away from the block. Do you recall if this is correct?

Woodruff key would be worth replacing, it does appear to be seated slightly more deeply into the crank at the end nearer to the block. Any advice on getting it out? Seems pretty stuck. Also, anyone have any info on the part number for that key? Can't seem to find it at the online OEM suppliers.

--Kevin- Definitely will check and compare. It's possible the new damper is off, though since the old one behaved the same I am inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt. Also, since the crank snout does not extend beyond the face of the t-belt sprocket, the damper ID doesn't actually interface with it, only with the bolt. Seems like a strange design choice to me... Or do you think there is something abnormal about my particular truck (a.k.a previous owner did something horrible)?

--John- Thanks, hoping it's not too bad! Though having done the timing belt twice already, I've kinda just resigned myself to doing it again. At least I'm getting quick at it, haha.


1998 Gen 2.5 Montero w/ winter package
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076059
01/05/15 08:02 PM
01/05/15 08:02 PM
plh  Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,422
Milwaukee Wisconsin
Quote
--plh- Yes, the bolt length will be my first check once I get back to the truck (out of town this week). As for the washer direction- It appears symmetrical except for a small chamfer on one side of the inner diameter. Matching the original installation, I oriented this chamfer outward, away from the block. Do you recall if this is correct?


small chamfer towards bolt head - so you are correct.


  • 88 Raider: 5 spd, 4.62 LSD F & R, T/L, OME Rear Springs, KYB G/A, 33/12.5/15" MTZs, PLH LOs, Justice Bumper, Dual Bouncies, 4D56T in -running soon!
  • 1992 RS M/T
  • 1993 SR
  • 2005 Montero LTD
  • Gen 1 - PARTS FOR SALE
  • http://www.tuffpans.com
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076060
01/05/15 08:10 PM
01/05/15 08:10 PM
danz91crx  Offline
Wheeler
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 173
New York
The woodruff key lines the pulleys up so they are in time. The force from the bolt pushes them farther onto the crank which is tapered. I would double check the order of the parts going on the crank in the FSM and what you have going onto the crank and make sure nothing is missing there. If the pulleys were not seating the crank would spin inside the pulleys and shear the woodruff key, the engine would quit because the cams would no longer turn. I've had first hand experience shearing a woodruff key on a CRF450 that I had. Couldn't figure out why it wouldn't run until I pulled the flywheel off the crank. You can download the ASA tool to look up parts for your montero on mitsubishilinks.com I believe. Thats if you want an OEM woodruff key. A dealer could probably get you the part number too.

[EDIT] Maybe try starting it up and check the engine side of your crank pulley for signs of wobbling with a flashlight. If you haven't already. Could be less things to play tricks on your eyes that way. [/EDIT]

Last edited by danz91crx; 01/05/15 08:43 PM.

1990 LWB RS A/T
1990 LWB Base A/T
1991 LWB LS A/T Going...Going...
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: danz91crx] #1076061
01/05/15 08:41 PM
01/05/15 08:41 PM
plh  Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,422
Milwaukee Wisconsin
Quote
You can download the ASA tool to look up parts for your montero on mitsubishilinks.com I believe. Thats if you want an OEM woodruff key. A dealer could probably get you the part number too.


I have ASA and couldn't find the woodruff key part number. So I bought a pack of several, did a hardness check and micrometer check (not caliper) and the all measurements were the same 40HRc, 5mm x 9mm x 21mm (3.0l). I was working on a Saturday/Sunday so the dealer wasn't an option.

I would certainly prefer OEM parts.


  • 88 Raider: 5 spd, 4.62 LSD F & R, T/L, OME Rear Springs, KYB G/A, 33/12.5/15" MTZs, PLH LOs, Justice Bumper, Dual Bouncies, 4D56T in -running soon!
  • 1992 RS M/T
  • 1993 SR
  • 2005 Montero LTD
  • Gen 1 - PARTS FOR SALE
  • http://www.tuffpans.com
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: plh] #1076062
01/05/15 08:48 PM
01/05/15 08:48 PM
danz91crx  Offline
Wheeler
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 173
New York
Your method sounds good to me too. As long as there is an OEM one to measure.
Here is the PN I found on ASA for the 3.0 MD008959
Thats the only vin I have in mine right now sorry I couldn't get you a PN for yours poolecr

Last edited by danz91crx; 01/05/15 08:56 PM.

1990 LWB RS A/T
1990 LWB Base A/T
1991 LWB LS A/T Going...Going...
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076063
01/05/15 08:55 PM
01/05/15 08:55 PM
Jay Ayala  Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,758
Hillsboro, OR.
Quote
Originally posted by danz91crx
The woodruff key lines the pulleys up so they are in time. The force from the bolt pushes them farther onto the crank which is tapered. I would double check the order of the parts going on the crank in the FSM and what you have going onto the crank and make sure nothing is missing there. If the pulleys were not seating the crank would spin inside the pulleys and shear the woodruff key, the engine would quit because the cams would no longer turn. I've had first hand experience shearing a woodruff key on a CRF450 that I had. Couldn't figure out why it wouldn't run until I pulled the flywheel off the crank. You can download the ASA tool to look up parts for your montero on mitsubishilinks.com I believe. Thats if you want an OEM woodruff key. A dealer could probably get you the part number too.

[EDIT] Maybe try starting it up and check the engine side of your crank pulley for signs of wobbling with a flashlight. If you haven't already. Could be less things to play tricks on your eyes that way. [/EDIT]


If the timing sprocket is "loose" or the key way is larger than you would expect it to fit over the woodruff key, replace the timing sprocket with a new one.

Quote
Originally posted by poolecr
...
---------What I'm suspicious of---------

1. The crank sprocket keyway looks undamaged, BUT appears larger than I would expect. The sprocket has nearly 1/2 tooth worth of rotational play on the crank when not torqued down. It fits rather loosely onto the crankshaft as well. Can anyone confirm if this is normal? The woodruff key itself is extremely tight in the crank keyway, so I didn't try to remove it.

2. The crank pulley was surprisingly easy to press onto the sprocket. It's a fairly loose fit until the bolt is torqued. When I first removed the original pulley, it was very tightly fused to the sprocket.
...


I keep coming back to this comment. I remember my 3.0L more because I've done it 4 times as opposed to helping out my wife overhaul her 3.5L. However, the timing sprocket is a super snug fit keyway onto the woodruff key. Why is yours larger??? hmmm...

Quote
Originally posted by poolecr
...
Woodruff key would be worth replacing, it does appear to be seated slightly more deeply into the crank at the end nearer to the block. Any advice on getting it out? Seems pretty stuck. Also, anyone have any info on the part number for that key? Can't seem to find it at the online OEM suppliers.
...


When I did my 1989 Overhaul in Jan of 2014, I replaced the woodruff key too. It was rather stubborn but once I broke it free, it was just a really snug fit and I could wiggle it out by hand.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


89 Raider - V6, Automatic, rear LSD, A/C Retrofit, Cruise Control Retrofit.
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076064
01/05/15 09:24 PM
01/05/15 09:24 PM
Jay Ayala  Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,758
Hillsboro, OR.
Quote
Originally posted by poolecr
...
--plh- Yes, the bolt length will be my first check once I get back to the truck (out of town this week). As for the washer direction- It appears symmetrical except for a small chamfer on one side of the inner diameter. Matching the original installation, I oriented this chamfer outward, away from the block. Do you recall if this is correct?
...


I know that what I'm about to show you is different than what you have but check this out. I just found a picture of my bolt length in the 3.0L crankshaft. I would expect to get about the same on your bolt and 3.5L crankshaft. It didn't bottom out even with the Harmonic Balancer off the crank shaft. The only thing I had on there was that new concave washer. That was what was stopping the bolt from going any further into the crank.

[Linked Image]


89 Raider - V6, Automatic, rear LSD, A/C Retrofit, Cruise Control Retrofit.
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: plh] #1076065
01/05/15 09:48 PM
01/05/15 09:48 PM
P
poolecr  Offline OP
Need a Spot
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 14
Palmdale, CA
So to hit some of the excellent points addressed-

The woodruff slot in the crankshaft seemed to be in good shape when I last looked at it, with the key firmly in place. The keyway in the crank sprocket is where the slop comes from, and even though the sprocket appears undamaged, there is noticeable play. Odd. Sounds like I shouldn't have too much trouble getting that key out, then I can sort out the proper replacement. The crank sprocket itself will just have to be replaced.

As for the crankshaft bolt, yep, it's the pink one, all clear on that front.

To clarify a bit on the crank/key/pulley relationship, check these shots out of a pulley and sprocket:
Sprocket
Pulley
The only thing aligning the pulley and sprocket is the roll pin, with centering coming from the sprocket OD and pulley ID. Through hole in the pulley is for the bolt only, no part of the crank passes through. My apologies if I am mistaking anyone's comments, but I wasn't sure if all the Monty engines used this configuration or not. From a design perspective it seems odd to me that the crank doesn't extend all the way through and key into the pulley.

So with reference to Dan's comments, with this setup I've read of instances where that roll pin shears and lets the pulley spin around the bolt/sprocket, while the sprocket remains keyed to the crank and thankfully keeps those cams turning. In my case the pin is intact, but it would seem that the root of my wobble would be the slop in the sprocket... Any slight play at that sprocket would only become worse out at the end of the pulley. Not sure I can get a decent look at the back-of-pulley/front-of-sprocket interface while it's running with the t-belt cover currently installed.

Still hoping it's the bolt that's too long, which would be the simpler of the fixes!


1998 Gen 2.5 Montero w/ winter package
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: Jay Ayala] #1076066
01/05/15 09:52 PM
01/05/15 09:52 PM
plh  Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,422
Milwaukee Wisconsin
here are the 3.0l and 3.5/3.8l bolts

web page

web page


  • 88 Raider: 5 spd, 4.62 LSD F & R, T/L, OME Rear Springs, KYB G/A, 33/12.5/15" MTZs, PLH LOs, Justice Bumper, Dual Bouncies, 4D56T in -running soon!
  • 1992 RS M/T
  • 1993 SR
  • 2005 Montero LTD
  • Gen 1 - PARTS FOR SALE
  • http://www.tuffpans.com
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076067
01/05/15 10:01 PM
01/05/15 10:01 PM
P
poolecr  Offline OP
Need a Spot
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 14
Palmdale, CA
You guys are quick! Thanks for the PN attempt Dan, I'll keep digging and figure mine out.

Jay, appreciate the pics, thanks. My feelings exactly on the size of the sprocket keyway, very strange. The amount of play seems unusual, but the part doesn't look worn or damaged in any way. My only thought would be that for some reason it was once replaced with a non-OEM part...??

Doesn't look like all that much is different between the two engines in the crank area. If the crank is really threaded that deep it seems like there's no way that I'm bottoming out the bolt, though I'll be doing this same test ASAP to see.

Good stuff on the key fit. Once I break mine loose I'll see how it compares.

Not to stray too far from the matter at hand, but once I'm back down to this point, would you recommend doing my front oil seal as well? I'd originally left it alone since it seemed to be in fine shape.


1998 Gen 2.5 Montero w/ winter package
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: plh] #1076068
01/05/15 10:03 PM
01/05/15 10:03 PM
Jay Ayala  Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,758
Hillsboro, OR.
Perhaps you may find these photos useful. They are from my old 1997 Montero SR 3.5L. I replaced the HB and the washer and bolt.


[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


89 Raider - V6, Automatic, rear LSD, A/C Retrofit, Cruise Control Retrofit.
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076069
01/05/15 10:10 PM
01/05/15 10:10 PM
P
poolecr  Offline OP
Need a Spot
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 14
Palmdale, CA
Thanks for those bolt measurements plh. I'm regretting posting all this while away from the truck, now I'm just itching to get my hands on it and compare!

To the best I can tell, that 3.5L bolt looks correct, though the part number I ordered was 1100A141. I'm assuming that the A022 is just a new PN for the latest replacement. Unfortunately didn't save the bag mine came in but judging by appearances it was an A022.

The thing I'm especially curious about now is my sprocket. I wonder if it is way out of spec, particularly the keyway.


1998 Gen 2.5 Montero w/ winter package
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076070
01/05/15 10:15 PM
01/05/15 10:15 PM
Jay Ayala  Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,758
Hillsboro, OR.
Quote
You guys are quick! Thanks for the PN attempt Dan, I'll keep digging and figure mine out.

Jay, appreciate the pics, thanks. My feelings exactly on the size of the sprocket keyway, very strange. The amount of play seems unusual, but the part doesn't look worn or damaged in any way. My only thought would be that for some reason it was once replaced with a non-OEM part...??

Doesn't look like all that much is different between the two engines in the crank area. If the crank is really threaded that deep it seems like there's no way that I'm bottoming out the bolt, though I'll be doing this same test ASAP to see.

Good stuff on the key fit. Once I break mine loose I'll see how it compares.

Not to stray too far from the matter at hand, but once I'm back down to this point, would you recommend doing my front oil seal as well? I'd originally left it alone since it seemed to be in fine shape.


I've got a lot of pictures from my 3.0L overhaul, but sadly I didn't document the 3.5L the way I normally like to because it was my wife overhauling and I was helping. It threw me off from my normal game. So no problem on the photos, I just wish I had the same amount I normally take for the 3.5L. Dang I missed my chance.

Yes, I am 99% sure that what you have is a non OEM timing sprocket. This 3.5L engine was used on a lot of different makes and models so it wouldn't surprise me if someone may have thought, hmm... Close enough!

How sure are you that there was half a tooth's rotation on that? There should not have been any.

In regards to the front crankshaft seal, if it isn't leaking I would recommend to leave it alone. If you go in after it, there is a possibility that you may gouge a scratch on the crankshaft during the removal process. If that happens than no matter what kind of new seal you put on it, there will always be a leak.

I have first hand personal experience with this and repairing that was not fun. I tried a lot of things and in the end, the only thing that actually worked was a new crankshaft.


89 Raider - V6, Automatic, rear LSD, A/C Retrofit, Cruise Control Retrofit.
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076071
01/05/15 10:18 PM
01/05/15 10:18 PM
P
poolecr  Offline OP
Need a Spot
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 14
Palmdale, CA
Ok, Jay's new photos made me even more curious. Was able to convince the wife to go dig through my garage trash for the bag my new bolt came in. I'm gonna owe her for that one, ha.

Anyway, what I've got in there now is PN 1100A141. It looks like the correct bolt, but more like the upper, longer bolt in plh's photos than the shorter bolt on the bottom and in Jay's pics....


1998 Gen 2.5 Montero w/ winter package
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: Jay Ayala] #1076072
01/05/15 10:31 PM
01/05/15 10:31 PM
P
poolecr  Offline OP
Need a Spot
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 14
Palmdale, CA
Quote

Yes, I am 99% sure that what you have is a non OEM timing sprocket. This 3.5L engine was used on a lot of different makes and models so it wouldn't surprise me if someone may have thought, hmm... Close enough!

How sure are you that there was half a tooth's rotation on that? There should not have been any.

In regards to the front crankshaft seal, if it isn't leaking I would recommend to leave it alone. If you go in after it, there is a possibility that you may gouge a scratch on the crankshaft during the removal process. If that happens than no matter what kind of new seal you put on it, there will always be a leak.

I have first hand personal experience with this and repairing that was not fun. I tried a lot of things and in the end, the only thing that actually worked was a new crankshaft.


No worries about the lack of pics, what you've already uploaded is really helpful. A very interesting question here is if I'm actually running the wrong bolt, AND my sprocket is "close enough." Ha, what a mess.

So I may be a little excessive with my half tooth estimate. I guess what it comes down to is that I could feel definite play, and as you say, I was expecting none at all. Even if my bolt does turn out to be wrong, I really want to deal with that sprocket.

Well, that sounds like more than enough convincing to leave that seal alone. I'd rather not repeat your crankshaft experience!


1998 Gen 2.5 Montero w/ winter package
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: Jay Ayala] #1076073
01/05/15 11:43 PM
01/05/15 11:43 PM
plh  Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,422
Milwaukee Wisconsin
Quote
Perhaps you may find these photos useful. They are from my old 1997 Montero SR 3.5L. I replaced the HB and the washer and bolt.


[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Jay - I think the bolt in the photos 1100A022 is the 3.0L part number.... 1100A141 is the 3.5l/3.8l


  • 88 Raider: 5 spd, 4.62 LSD F & R, T/L, OME Rear Springs, KYB G/A, 33/12.5/15" MTZs, PLH LOs, Justice Bumper, Dual Bouncies, 4D56T in -running soon!
  • 1992 RS M/T
  • 1993 SR
  • 2005 Montero LTD
  • Gen 1 - PARTS FOR SALE
  • http://www.tuffpans.com
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: plh] #1076074
01/06/15 12:14 AM
01/06/15 12:14 AM
Jay Ayala  Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,758
Hillsboro, OR.
phl,
I believe you are 100% right about that. Come to think of it, when I ordered the crank bolt for the 3.5L engine overhaul, I simply reordered the same crank bolt from my 3.0L engine overhaul from 6 months prior.

Dang, my mistake. I didn't realize there was a difference. I really aught to contact the new owner of the 1997 Montero. I want that thing to stay on the road and if it goes down because I made a mistake, that will make me feel responsible. Thanks for pointing that out.

I'll get a hold of him right away. poolecr, take my photo of the pulleys and my crank bolt with that grain of salt. That was my mistake and a good catch by phl.


89 Raider - V6, Automatic, rear LSD, A/C Retrofit, Cruise Control Retrofit.
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: Jay Ayala] #1076075
01/06/15 12:39 AM
01/06/15 12:39 AM
P
poolecr  Offline OP
Need a Spot
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 14
Palmdale, CA
Good catch! At least that clears up my confusion, glad I've got the right one after all.

Hopefully you can get in touch with the owner Jay. Though with some luck there's still plenty of thread engagement. If it took the full torque I'd like to hope that it will stay put.


1998 Gen 2.5 Montero w/ winter package
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076076
01/06/15 07:56 AM
01/06/15 07:56 AM
K
Kevin C  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 6,131
Portland OR ****
Is it the outer ring wobbling of the entire damper? From what I can tell, the assembly indexes / datums axially on the OD of the timing sprocket and is held square by its face.

If your sprocket was loose, you could have a problem(EDIT for clarity: ID of pulley or OD of crank).

Another test would be to check the runout with the motor off. If you take the pulley back off again, look for fretting marks to see if its moving.

The outer ring will move in response to engine harmonics, but its not supposed to wobble.

Last edited by Kevin C; 01/06/15 04:01 PM.

87 Turbo Intercooled Raider, roller cam, torsen rear diff, LSD front diff, lockup auto with modified converter, V6 brakes, low transfer case gears...
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076077
01/06/15 08:27 AM
01/06/15 08:27 AM
danz91crx  Offline
Wheeler
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 173
New York
Quote

To clarify a bit on the crank/key/pulley relationship, check these shots out of a pulley and sprocket:
Sprocket
Pulley
The only thing aligning the pulley and sprocket is the roll pin, with centering coming from the sprocket OD and pulley ID. Through hole in the pulley is for the bolt only, no part of the crank passes through. My apologies if I am mistaking anyone's comments, but I wasn't sure if all the Monty engines used this configuration or not. From a design perspective it seems odd to me that the crank doesn't extend all the way through and key into the pulley.

So with reference to Dan's comments, with this setup I've read of instances where that roll pin shears and lets the pulley spin around the bolt/sprocket, while the sprocket remains keyed to the crank and thankfully keeps those cams turning. In my case the pin is intact, but it would seem that the root of my wobble would be the slop in the sprocket... Any slight play at that sprocket would only become worse out at the end of the pulley. Not sure I can get a decent look at the back-of-pulley/front-of-sprocket interface while it's running with the t-belt cover currently installed.

Still hoping it's the bolt that's too long, which would be the simpler of the fixes!


Sorry about that I didn't know what your dealing with.
My suggestion to look at the engine side of the pulley was because I thought at first you were unsure if it was wobbling or just an illusion. Now I see that was about an rpm change making it better or worse..
Ill leave you to the more experienced.
Hopefully it is something small. Sounds like it is, good thing you caught it.


1990 LWB RS A/T
1990 LWB Base A/T
1991 LWB LS A/T Going...Going...
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: Kevin C] #1076078
01/06/15 02:38 PM
01/06/15 02:38 PM
P
poolecr  Offline OP
Need a Spot
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 14
Palmdale, CA
Quote
Is it the outer ring wobbling of the entire damper? From what I can tell, the assembly indexes / datums axially on the OD of the timing sprocket and is held square by its face.

If your sprocket was loose, you could have a problem.
Another test would be to check the runout with the motor off. IF you take the pulley back off again, look for fretting marks to see if its moving.

The outer ring will move in response to engine harmonics, but its not supposed to wobble.


The entire pulley appears to be moving. It's pretty subtle, and I did actually put a few hundred miles on it before I caught it. But since I noticed it and talked to you guys, I'm thinking the sprocket slop has allowed it to be tightened down slightly off kilter. I don't THINK it's actively moving on the shaft, but once I have it apart I'll check for signs as you recommend.

Any hints you can give me for testing runout? Haven't done that before but I'd be curious to check it on this motor.


1998 Gen 2.5 Montero w/ winter package
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076079
01/25/15 05:00 AM
01/25/15 05:00 AM
P
poolecr  Offline OP
Need a Spot
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 14
Palmdale, CA
I've FINALLY returned from my work trip, after it was extended repeatedly... Fun! Time to get back to solving this Montero issue.

I didn't get much done today, but I did pull off the accessory belts and fan so I could get some video of the balancer and crank pulley bolt. The links for all the videos are below.

Not sure anybody will want to sit through all of them, but they do show how unpleasant the issue is ("Angle" and "Closeup" particularly). And yes, in retrospect I want to kick myself for doing such a bad job holding the camera still. I was doing a bit of contortion to get it in there without dropping it into the balancer... tomorrow I can try to get better shots if they will be of value.

Overview
Angle
Bolt Closeup 1
Bolt Closeup 2

My main concern as shown in the "Angle" and "Bolt Closeup" videos is that it looks like the bolt itself is wobbling as well as the balancer. (Unfortunately the YouTube processing seems to hide this somewhat. They've also thoughtfully rotated the video 90 degrees for reasons beyond my understanding.) Anyway, I'd thought that at least the bolt itself would be true.... Does the fact that it wobbles as well hint that there's something wrong with the crank? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />

Tomorrow I'll probably pull it apart down to the timing belt to do further investigations of the sprocket, snout, and key as mention earlier in this thread, but I wanted to get this video up first and see if you had any thoughts for other tests I should do to diagnose.


1998 Gen 2.5 Montero w/ winter package
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076080
01/26/15 05:42 AM
01/26/15 05:42 AM
P
poolecr  Offline OP
Need a Spot
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 14
Palmdale, CA
Well, I've found some answers. Not sure how I missed some of this the first time- Guess I should have spent more time investigating and set up proper lighting. Anyway, these pictures should tell the story:

[Linked Image]
The crank key was broken when it came out, and more importantly, had worn thin! Until I took the key out, the rust had hidden the fact that the crank slot was significantly wider than the protruding portion of the key.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
The snout has unfortunately taken a beating. It is no longer smooth and round, and what I had originally thought were only rust patterns are actually low spots on the crank.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
The areas of wear can be seen on the sprocket.

All this adds up to a loose fitting sprocket that can play enough to wobble, and may not be aligned when tightened down.

It appears that this thread describes another incidence of this problem. That user (mk75) apparently ended up purchasing a new long block. I would like to hope that mine is still salvageable. I have a new sprocket on the way and will get a key as well. Any ideas for filling the low spots and attempting to get a round crank out of all this? Part of me is tempted to fill the splines on the sprocket so that it will ride on the high spots left on the crank.

The "redneck option" of JB weld has crossed my mind, but even if I that stops it from moving, there's no guarantee it will end up properly aligned when tightened.


1998 Gen 2.5 Montero w/ winter package
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1076081
01/26/15 06:48 AM
01/26/15 06:48 AM
danz91crx  Offline
Wheeler
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 173
New York
The woodruff key is what sets the sprockets timing and it should be a press fit holding it in place with the bolt torqued down. Looks to me that either the key was the wrong size or not seated when the sprocket was installed and torqued, keeping the sprocket from seating properly. I'd try the new OEM crank sprocket and woodruff key. I wouldn't file the crank or fill the sprocket with anything. Hopefully the sprocket seats on the crank like it should with the new key.


1990 LWB RS A/T
1990 LWB Base A/T
1991 LWB LS A/T Going...Going...
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: danz91crx] #1076082
01/26/15 11:08 AM
01/26/15 11:08 AM
Ian Sharpe  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 315
Braidwood NSW, Australia
You might also like to take the oportunity to do what i did.

Drill out & retap the bolt hole to take a 50mm x 16mm metric fine grade 10 bolt. I made sure my bolt will never break agAIN!


97 Exceed, 3.5l SOHC auto, 4.90 gears, ARB front locker,rear Harrop E-Locker, Magnum winch, dual transfer cases also 2008 NS swb Pajero, front bar & winch
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: Ian Sharpe] #1076083
01/26/15 03:26 PM
01/26/15 03:26 PM
K
Kevin C  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 6,131
Portland OR ****
You have fretting damage on the shoulder that the timing pulley seats against. You can see it because there is a raised edge where it didn't wear that matches the slot in the pulley.

This is probably spacing the timing pulley too far back so that the damper assembly is seating on the front of the crank and not the timing pulley.

The woodruff key had worn that far.

To make your crank work, you need a timing pulley that fits flat on the rear lip and no longer drops into worn tooth pattern in the snout and gets compressed by the front pulley.

My recommendation is to replace the crankshaft.


87 Turbo Intercooled Raider, roller cam, torsen rear diff, LSD front diff, lockup auto with modified converter, V6 brakes, low transfer case gears...
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: Kevin C] #1076084
01/26/15 05:29 PM
01/26/15 05:29 PM
P
poolecr  Offline OP
Need a Spot
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 14
Palmdale, CA
danz, I'd definitely like to hope that things will fit better once a proper key is installed, but I am pretty concerned about the condition of that crank snout...

Ian, that sounds like a pretty indestructible setup! Depending how this all plays out I may have to consider that as well. Though so far I haven't had any bolts break. Of course, I've only driven the thing a few hundred miles since I bought it last year. I did not expect I was getting into this big of a mess. Sigh.

Kevin, that's a good point that I hadn't caught. It's even more visible in this picture:
[Linked Image]
It does appear that the wear in that direction is minimal enough that the pulley still seats onto the front of the sprocket, and not the crank- This is what it looks like fully pressed on (though not torqued, of course). The alignment is probably still garbage, though:
[Linked Image]

Your recommendation of a new crank is very much what I was afraid of. I feel as though that's somewhat beyond my current capability and equipment... Or is it not as bad as I expect? Is it possible to accomplish while the engine is still in the car?


1998 Gen 2.5 Montero w/ winter package
Re: Crank pulley wobble with new pulley and tight bolt - 98 Montero [Re: poolecr] #1104152
02/02/18 07:12 AM
02/02/18 07:12 AM
J
jeffmort  Offline
Need a Spot
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 15
Encinitas, CA
I realize that this is an older thread but I had/have the exact same problem - wobbly balancer after installing new crank bolt.
I have a 1991 Montero 3.0 with 133,000 miles - all original. It had the "old style" crank bolt in it and after reading threads on this forum, I decided to have my mechanic install the "new/correct" style crank bolt and washer (part #11A01A022 - bolt; MR994412 - washer). During a timing belt replacement, I provided my mechanic with the new style bolt/washer and when he gave the car back to me, it had a rattle/wobble at the balancer/crank pulley. He removed the bolt and installed another bolt he had on hand (similar to the longer old style, incorrect original bolt) and the wobble went away and all is fine for now.
That said, I now have a random crank bolt that is not the original, long bolt nor is it the correct newer style bolt/washer but the car is running perfectly (no wobble/rattle).
My questions are:
1) For my 1991 Montero 3.0, are part #'s 1101A022 (bolt) and MR994412 (washer) the correct part #'s for my application? I'm pretty sure they are correct but wanted to double check.
2) The new bolt/washer (1101A022/MR994412) was installed with the chamfered side of the washer facing the bolt head - is this correct or do I have it backwards?
3) Since the car is running correctly right now with the random, non-original crank bolt, should I leave it as is and be happy?
Thanks.


Jeff
1991 Montero
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