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1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build #1078661
08/03/15 11:30 PM
08/03/15 11:30 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Intro:

Before I end up with two threads going for the same thing, I figured I'd better start an official build thread. smile

"The Vehicle" - See the links at the bottom of this post. smile

1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L 4WD A/T

The plan ...

.5 Fix the front end so its drivable! lol! Fix all the misc OEM stuff that needs taken care of
1. Electric engine cooling fans, front bumper/winch, Rhino Lining, skids
2. 2" body lift
3. Rear bumper, lighting, on-board air (ARBs), upholstery (front seats)
4. Transmission swap, NP231 t-case & doubler
5. SAS - ProRock 44s FR/RR w/ ARBs. Leaf rear w/torque arm. 3-link/radius arm front??
6. Exhaust/intake

I haven't decided on axle gearing, t-case, doubler gearing or tire/rim sizes, yet.

Toying with Geolandar M/T 37/12.5/17s, 4.90s, 2.72 in the doubler and a 4:1 Terra Low 231. If I have the number correct (probably not), that should come up to about a 150:1 crawl ratio and just under 9s/in in lo-lo-lo. A tad faster than my M/T - not counting the torque converter.

I was originally planning on 35"s, but with a 2" body lift I can get the same amount of upward travel without body clearance issues, while picking up 1" of ground clearance which would work better for the planed geometry. Have to do the math. I want to keep this lower than my current big Sport. It has 25" from the ground to the chassis, which is too much. Any more would be completely retarded and with a 2" body lift on top of that.... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> 20-22" would be MUCH better. W/ a 2" body lift and my existing axle/rim geometry it'd be rock solid stable on side hills.

Lots to do first before I get to these, though. smile

(original threads ...)
1999 Montero Sport Limited A/T model?

Montero Sport Sanctuary - new addition

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
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Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078662
08/04/15 01:26 AM
08/04/15 01:26 AM
lordtrunks  Offline
Roll Me Over
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,078
Apache Jct, Arizona,USA *****
we've been using junkyard rubicon rocktrac t\cases they already come with a 4:1 and beefed up parts we just have tom woods order us up some 1310 style yokes and seals for it and i think they do a little machining to them i can't remember and boom oh yeah they are also already the 23 spline short input aswell. If you go this route make sure to get the case out of the TJ rubicon as it has the speedo and the JK model doesn't, which isn't a big deal if you do get the JK model you'll just need to get the dakota digital GPS speedo controller which works AWESOME! So far i am very happy with how its worked i used it in lloyds and pa_jero is using one aswell(both using JK rubi cases).


89 2 dr turbo diesel
89/88 "Backwoods sas"
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: lordtrunks] #1078663
08/05/15 12:14 AM
08/05/15 12:14 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Quote
we've been using junkyard rubicon rocktrac t\cases they already come with a 4:1 and beefed up parts we just have tom woods order us up some 1310 style yokes and seals for it and i think they do a little machining to them i can't remember and boom oh yeah they are also already the 23 spline short input aswell.


Thanks! Good to know! Frankly, I was figuring the t-case would be the least of my worries. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I hadn't even thought of using the RockTrac. I was planning on doing the same ultra-short shaft conversion on a NP231 w/ the Terra Low that I did with my big Sport and dropping the Dakota SGI in for the speedo. But, the RockTrac would almost certainly be cheaper. Choice will mostly be based on overall length of assembly (edge of bell housing to output yoke on the t-case) and whether I can get an electronic VSS.

I've been through Dakota's stuff. Great products! The GPS speedo looked great and I know others that are using it, but the SGI is simpler and 100% fool proof. Just need an electronic VSS. smile

Does anyone have the length of the entire assembly? Edge of the bell housing -> doubler -> t-case output yoke? Pictures look like the A/T setup is longer than my M/T setup but its really hard to tell from just a picture. If its shorter than what I have now, I may well want the extra length to clear the rear cross member and maintain my existing drive train geometry.

Ok. Let me make sure I understand this. The Montero V4AW3 - that I need to bolt to my '99 3.5L - needs the 23-spline output and tail-housing from a Cherokee with the AW4/NP231.

The t-case needs the short snout 23-spline input. Is there a reason its the short snout 23? Wondering, because i have the long snout in my big Sport now and I was under the impression that the AW4 came in either short or long.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078664
08/05/15 09:18 AM
08/05/15 09:18 AM
Ian Sharpe  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 315
Braidwood NSW, Australia
Quote
Intro:
Toying with Geolandar M/T 37/12.5/17s, 4.90s, 2.72 in the doubler and a 4:1 Terra Low 231. If I have the number correct (probably not), that should come up to about a 150:1 crawl ratio and just under 9s/in in lo-lo-lo. A tad faster than my M/T - not counting the torque converter.

Edward


Mine is 103:1 so yours is another 50% lower! You might go through a few sets of pads trying to pull that up!

cheers


97 Exceed, 3.5l SOHC auto, 4.90 gears, ARB front locker,rear Harrop E-Locker, Magnum winch, dual transfer cases also 2008 NS swb Pajero, front bar & winch
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078665
08/05/15 05:15 PM
08/05/15 05:15 PM
E
eurosonic  Offline
Need a Spot
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 19
Sacramento, CA
Nice build.
IMO 2.72: on top of 4:1 is way too low.

I would stick with another 2.72.

Thats what Im doing with my build.

Last edited by eurosonic; 08/05/15 05:16 PM.
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: eurosonic] #1078666
08/05/15 07:22 PM
08/05/15 07:22 PM
lordtrunks  Offline
Roll Me Over
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,078
Apache Jct, Arizona,USA *****
I thinking having both the 4:1 and the 2.72 just give a wide array of options and speaking of options now that your auto your gonna want to be able to still pick what gear your in once in low range so check these guys out i have one of their shifter setups in my montero and love it works great.
http://radesignsproducts.com/Rail.html


89 2 dr turbo diesel
89/88 "Backwoods sas"
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: lordtrunks] #1078667
08/05/15 09:07 PM
08/05/15 09:07 PM
Ian Sharpe  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 315
Braidwood NSW, Australia
Quote
I thinking having both the 4:1 and the 2.72 just give a wide array of options and speaking of options now that your auto your gonna want to be able to still pick what gear your in once in low range so check these guys out i have one of their shifter setups in my montero and love it works great.
http://radesignsproducts.com/Rail.html


I dont get it, why wouldnt you just use factory shifter setup?


97 Exceed, 3.5l SOHC auto, 4.90 gears, ARB front locker,rear Harrop E-Locker, Magnum winch, dual transfer cases also 2008 NS swb Pajero, front bar & winch
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: eurosonic] #1078668
08/05/15 10:47 PM
08/05/15 10:47 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Quote
Mine is 103:1 so yours is another 50% lower! You might go through a few sets of pads trying to pull that up!

...

Nice build.
IMO 2.72: on top of 4:1 is way too low.

I would stick with another 2.72.

Thats what Im doing with my build.


Thanks, eurosonic!

Ian, eurosonic: Yea, I know the commonly agreed upon max for an A/T is usually a crawl ratio of 130:1. A lot recommend no more than 100:1.

V5MT1 M/T

Transmission:
1: 3.918
2: 2.261
3: 1.395
4: 1.00
5: 0.829

5.38 axle (crawl ratio):
Lo: 57.3
Lo-lo: 84.3
Lo-lo-lo: 229.3

This is what I wheel now in my big Sport. KIM, it weighs in @ almost 6K lbs w/driver just doing DD service. If I pack it for Moab, its pushing into the high side of 6K lbs. The new one will still sit between 20-25" off the ground (ground to bottom of frame) so its still going to be top heavy like my current Sport. And, I live @ 5500 feet and have to deal with a minimum of one (usually two) 12/13K ft highway mountain pass to get anywhere west, and most of my wheeling is at 8K ft+. Big, loose crap, steep and off camber. I also still need to be able to do 70 MPH on the highway and put 3000 miles on it a trip without issues.

So, I need to make some concessions. This build will still lean more towards an Expedition vehicle rather than a true rock crawler. Just a little less Expedition and a little more crawler than my big Sport now. smile

V4AW3 A/T (please let me know if these ratios are incorrect)

2.804
1.531
1.000
0.754

5.13 axle:
Lo: 39.1
Lo-lo: 57.5
Lo-lo-lo: 156.5

4.88 axle:
Lo: 37.2
Lo-lo: 54.7
Lo-lo-lo: 148.8


So, I did some math and this is what I came up with. My existing build works pretty dang well on the mountain lower speed highways and great back and froth to Moab on the long stretches where I don't have 12% grades - it BARELY will get me over the passes without ending up in 3RD doing 40 MPH for 15 miles.

Existing build (3.5L)/
5.38 Axle, 34.4 diameter tire:
70 MPH, OD: 3049 RPM
70 MPH, 4TH: 3678 RPM

I have 4.90s in my '03 3.5L (with the Montero 5-speed A/T) so I think I can make some educated assumptions on the 5.13s. 4.90s in the new build I'm almost certain won't work here in CO (definitely didn't in my M/T build!). If I load the '03 up with gear and take it over the passes I'm in 3rd and 4th all the way up - probably 1/2 the time in 3rd. I can't see adding 1500 lbs and 37"s having a positive impact. smile

5.38s I THINK are too deep for an A/T although that puts me at about 2600 RPM in OD and 3500 RPM in 3RD @ 70 MPH. Better for OD but not great. I'd prefer OD to be about 2800 RPM. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Anyway, maybe just a tad deep in 3RD for an A/T.

So, 5.13s I guess. These should be a reasonable compromise. If I were lower in altitude (and stayed there) - even 4K ft - I think I'd consider the 4.90s, but my travel range is 10K vertical feet with a speed range of 75 MPH. A 4-speed A/T w/OD limits what you can do in the axles.

New build (3.5L)/
5.13 Axle, 36.6 diameter tire:
70 MPH, OD: 2486 RPM
70 MPH, 3RD: 3297 RPM

So, this is where I think I'm pretty well stuck at with axle gears even taking into account torque multiplication if I want to have a functional (useful) OD and TC lockup.

These are the projected crawl ratios for the new build.

5.13 axle:
Lo: 39.1
Lo-lo: 57.5
Lo-lo-lo: 156.5

4.88 axle:
Lo: 37.2
Lo-lo: 54.7
Lo-lo-lo: 148.8

I don't wheel A/Ts (except my stock '03) so I'm kinda in the dark here but that is way, WAY lower than my M/T build. CoSport had a '98 Sport w/35"s so I'm going by what I remember when we were wheeling together. The stock crawl ratio was 22.4 which was amazingly pathetic. That was like 52"/sec on 35"s - insanely fast. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

New build (in/sec):
31.83"
21.6"
7.9"

Existing build (in/sec):
20.45"
13.9"
5"

I HOPE that an A/T will compensate for the difference. Lo-Lo-Lo could go up and that would be fine. 8" or even 10" /sec is no big deal. 31"? That's not so good - I'm not sure that converter slippage will change that number a lot.

2-speed rather than a 3-speed setup? No. 2.72 isn't deep enough by itself to handle any meaningful amount of my wheeling. I'd end up spending 99% of my time in Lo-Lo ( 2.72x2) - might as well just put in a single NP231 with 4:1 and call it a day.

Ian, I don't know. You all are running the Mitsu brakes I presume. I just don't have enough A/T experience to make a good judgement on stopping. What I DO know is my current brake setup can stall it in Lo-Lo-Lo, so .... The ProRocks will be the same as what I have now. Exploder rears w/ 1/2 ton fronts. PowerSlot rotors and Hawk 'green' pads. Enough? Don't know.

Anyway, I don't think I have much of a choice. Need deeper axle gears because of where I live and wanna keep the 3-speed t-case setup. If anyone has a better idea(s)/opinion(s), let me know.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: Ian Sharpe] #1078669
08/05/15 11:48 PM
08/05/15 11:48 PM
lordtrunks  Offline
Roll Me Over
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,078
Apache Jct, Arizona,USA *****
Quote
Quote
I thinking having both the 4:1 and the 2.72 just give a wide array of options and speaking of options now that your auto your gonna want to be able to still pick what gear your in once in low range so check these guys out i have one of their shifter setups in my montero and love it works great.
http://radesignsproducts.com/Rail.html


I dont get it, why wouldnt you just use factory shifter setup?


Ian the idea is to use both you but a switch in then when your wheeling and say your in 4l or 4ll but you want to start and stay in 2 or 3 or hell even 4th that shifter will let you do that in which you can't with the stock setup.


89 2 dr turbo diesel
89/88 "Backwoods sas"
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: lordtrunks] #1078670
08/06/15 12:12 AM
08/06/15 12:12 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Quote
I thinking having both the 4:1 and the 2.72 just give a wide array of options


With you there. Having a 3-speed is WAY better than a 2-speed and WAY WAY better than our stock setup. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Of course, NO t-case is almost better than 1.9! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Quote
... and speaking of options now that your auto your gonna want to be able to still pick what gear your in once in low range so check these guys out i have one of their shifter setups in my montero and love it works great.
http://radesignsproducts.com/Rail.html


Uh. I think I understand how this is suppsoed to work. You're using their Rock Shifter? Without the TCM, correct?

I read through all their stuff and if I understand what's what ...

So, you can retain the stock TCM. Which I would think would be necessary for emissions testing - not to pass, but to keep the testers from killing themselves and/or someone else. They're not going to know how to 'shift' an auto. Hell, they can barely test a M/T anymore. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The Rail II works in conjunction with the FACTORY floor shifter. If you have a Rock Shifter, the Rail or Baja are not necessary. The question is, would it work in conjunction with the Mitsu shifter?

So, the idea would be to retain the stock shifter assembly and install the Rail II to give stock performance on the highway while giving what basically amounts to clutch-less manual transmission behavior on the trail.

Do I have this correct?

Something else just occurred to me. Since the '99 Sport Limited has a different transmission and PCM, it also has a different selector, right? I don't remember the wiring being the same for the ECM/TCM units and the PCM units. So, if I plan to use the AW with, say, the '95/'96 TCM, I'll need the selector that works with the TCM.

So, another question. What would be the best TCM? I expect that would mean the one that has the fewest connections to the ECM - i.e. standalone - so that means '97/98 or older. Would there be a preference? Are there better options?

AND, I know the 3.0/3.5L bell housing bolt patterns changed in '96. The older stuff isn't supposed to bolt to the newer engines. Is this just a bell housing change or do I need to look at a '97/'98 Montero/Montero Sport AW?

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: lordtrunks] #1078671
08/06/15 12:20 AM
08/06/15 12:20 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Quote
Quote
... I dont get it, why wouldnt you just use factory shifter setup?


Ian the idea is to use both you but a switch in then when your wheeling and say your in 4l or 4ll but you want to start and stay in 2 or 3 or hell even 4th that shifter will let you do that in which you can't with the stock setup.


Also ... The '99 Montero Sport Limited uses a PCM. Integrated ECM and TCM. The A/T shifter is integrated into the PCM. Shift signals go into the PCM and that's what controls the transmission shift solenoids. When you remove the factory transmission and replace it with the Mitsu AW, there wouldn't be any way to shift the transmission.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: lordtrunks] #1078672
08/06/15 01:29 AM
08/06/15 01:29 AM
Ian Sharpe  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 315
Braidwood NSW, Australia
[quoteIan the idea is to use both you but a switch in then when your wheeling and say your in 4l or 4ll but you want to start and stay in 2 or 3 or hell even 4th that shifter will let you do that in which you can't with the stock setup. [/quote]

Oh I get it. My auto has a hold button which I believe locks you into 2nd.


97 Exceed, 3.5l SOHC auto, 4.90 gears, ARB front locker,rear Harrop E-Locker, Magnum winch, dual transfer cases also 2008 NS swb Pajero, front bar & winch
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078673
08/06/15 09:49 PM
08/06/15 09:49 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Stumbled across this earlier. Aftermarket TCU. Crazy configurable but expensive.

PCS (Powertrain Control Systems)

Aftermarket TCM Application Chart (PDF)

No surprise I suppose ...

"Other Supported Applications" ...
Asin A340E (Toy version of the AW4)

---

Novak Adapters AW4 page

AW4

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 08/06/15 10:06 PM.
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: Ian Sharpe] #1078674
08/06/15 09:50 PM
08/06/15 09:50 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Quote
[quoteIan the idea is to use both you but a switch in then when your wheeling and say your in 4l or 4ll but you want to start and stay in 2 or 3 or hell even 4th that shifter will let you do that in which you can't with the stock setup.


Oh I get it. My auto has a hold button which I believe locks you into 2nd. [/quote]

The '97-99 has the hold button, too. If I remember correctly it is 2nd.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078675
08/11/15 01:47 AM
08/11/15 01:47 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
I appreciate all the info guys! After doing some more research, working out exactly what I'm trying to get and what I NEED to get to make this all work, I think I'm going to take a good look into fabing an adapter for the transmission already in my '99.

I REALLY need everything to work as close to 'stock' as I can. Emissions is a PITA here and the people in the shops are not exactly brain surgeons. So, the simpler I can get this from an operator perspective, the easier my life will be.

Based on the pics you all have posted I don't see why I can't have a simple 2-3" adapter fabed up reasonably cheap. AA uses steel for theirs and I don't see why I can't do it that way, too. That wasn't possible with the M/T adapter but this is a LOT simpler. I have a gear shop and heat treating shop here in Denver that did the V2 shafts for my M/T conversion and they've been working beautifully.

Anyway, I'll look closer into this and as long as I don't find anything weird in the next couple days I'll start working one getting the parts for measurement and CADing the adapter and shaft up.

SO, AGAIN, its going to cost a chunk to do the first one but subsequent ones will be cheaper. I'll do a couple for myself; one for install and a full spare. If anyone is interested, please let me know. Once everything is set up its a LOT easier and cheaper to run three or four or five. I probably won't ever do this again so ....

Before I do this, though, I'll talk to AA and see if maybe I can work a deal through them. Most likely, though, I'll just do them myself.

What I would like, though, are opinions on whether this transmission will hold up to 37"s. I'm not worried about off road - there'll be plenty of gearing there. I don't THINK there'd be any issues running 5.13s, but ....

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078676
08/11/15 04:09 AM
08/11/15 04:09 AM
dannytuned  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 391
St. John, IN
I hated that trans for the entire time I ran it(75k mi.). On 31x10.50 km1's, and the torque converter felt a little weak/slipping toward the end, too.

If that's the V4A51(INVECS-II) that I had in my 01 Sport, it's the one that-well, here's copied from Wiki-

Adaptive Shift Control software which monitored and "learned" the driver's habits over time and adjusted the smoothness or aggression of the gearshifts to suit his or her driving style

Maybe it's just the way I drive, but it never seemed to work the way I expected.

Off-roading was the same way, I never seemed to be in the gear I needed to be in.

My 2 cents, swap the aw4. Parts are more available, run the manual controller, be in the gear you need. Put your resistors in to fool the computer and have no trouble codes.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />


2001Sport 3.0-Headers-Cage-RoofChop-NP231/D300-D44/ARB-Ford9/Yukon/3Link-37's+H1's-PSC Assist-108:1
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: dannytuned] #1078677
08/11/15 09:34 PM
08/11/15 09:34 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Quote
I hated that trans for the entire time I ran it(75k mi.). On 31x10.50 km1's, and the torque converter felt a little weak/slipping toward the end, too.


Thanks, Danny. Mmmmm. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Quote
If that's the V4A51(INVECS-II) that I had in my 01 Sport, it's the one that-well, here's copied from Wiki-

Adaptive Shift Control software which monitored and "learned" the driver's habits over time and adjusted the smoothness or aggression of the gearshifts to suit his or her driving style


"1999 4X4 3.5L trans is compatible with only 1999 to 2000 (to 9-2000 production date) V4A51 models"

I don't think the '99 actually had that. When I've talked to the techs, I got the impression the adaptive stuff came latter.

Quote
Maybe it's just the way I drive, but it never seemed to work the way I expected.

Off-roading was the same way, I never seemed to be in the gear I needed to be in.


I have this in my '03 Limited, but that's the Montero 5-speed A/T. It is SUPER annoying, but A/Ts in general irritate the crap out of me. 30 years of driving a M/T. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> BTW, the techs said they made big improvements in '04 - just in time to stop makeing them. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

On the other hand, I've had it off road both in CO and UT. Never had any issues with gearing. Drop it in 1st and that's where it stays. But, again, totally different transmission.

Quote
My 2 cents, swap the aw4. Parts are more available, run the manual controller, be in the gear you need. Put your resistors in to fool the computer and have no trouble codes.


Thanks again, Danny. So, what you're suggesting is run the Rail II shift controller with something like the TCM-2000 Transmission Controller for the TCM?

Sorry, another stupid question: Does your cruise control still work?

Emailed a shop here in Denver that deals with PCS, A/Ts & t-cases and does builds/rebuilds to get me a $$ figure on a complete assembly with everything wired. Should be interesting.

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 08/11/15 11:29 PM.

'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078678
08/12/15 07:54 PM
08/12/15 07:54 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
I spoke to Rory at Radesigns Products about the Rail II in regards to the V4A51 and V4AW3. As expected, it will not work with the V4A51. He said it will work with the Mitsu variant of the AW4, the V4AW3. Again, as was expected.

I also asked him about setting up the PCS and Rail II as he has it described on the web site with the switch so that one could use either the Rail II or go full automatic with the PCS. Rory said he expected it would; he didn't see any reason why it wouldn't.

This is all goodness and makes me lean back towards doing the V4AW3 swap.

Luckily, I found a big transmission shop here in Denver that sells the PCS. Still waiting to hear back from them but I have my fingers crossed that they can just supply me with a completely built and wired AW.

Ok. Got a A/T builder that does tranny builds for crawlers/off road. Got a PCS supplier. Waiting for the PCS guys to let me know what harness I need and if they'll wire up the V4AW3 and I need to source a core A/T. BTW, the A/T builder strongly suggested the Transgo 340-HD2 shift improver kit if I plan to run 37"s. No surprise there.


Rail II Shift Controler

PCS (Powertrain Control Systems)

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 08/12/15 08:38 PM.
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078679
08/14/15 09:51 PM
08/14/15 09:51 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
So, I spoke to the transmission shop that does A/Ts for the off road shops here and has worked on bunches of the AW4s for Jeeps and Toys. He asked a bunch of questions but wanted to know what gearing I was going to run, what tire size, what [email]RPM@what[/email] speed when he found out what I already drive. Stuff I'd be asking if I were building a transmission for someone. Sounds like he knows what he's doing anyway. He strongly recommended running the Transgo 340-HD2 shift improver kit if I were going to run 37"s. His opinion was that w/ 4.90s or 5.13s and 37"s and the kit the transmission should have a nice long life. Oh, and a trans cooler. smile

So, I started reading about the Transgo kit.

Quote
Trans will stay in low gear with Lever in manual low position.


For you A/T drivers, if the Transgo kit allows you to lock in 1st, would there still be a benefit in having the Rail II installed?

And, I think I found a transmission. Going down to take a look tomorrow morning. Mitsu Montero Sport - manufacturer's tag is Asin Warner 30-43LE. Still have the Mitsu VIN tag, too.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078680
08/14/15 10:00 PM
08/14/15 10:00 PM
Ian Sharpe  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 315
Braidwood NSW, Australia
Hey ES,

I had this kit put in mine last year. What would be the difference from the one above.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/A340E-AW4-REP...=item4cff3c118c

cheers


97 Exceed, 3.5l SOHC auto, 4.90 gears, ARB front locker,rear Harrop E-Locker, Magnum winch, dual transfer cases also 2008 NS swb Pajero, front bar & winch
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: Ian Sharpe] #1078681
08/14/15 10:52 PM
08/14/15 10:52 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Quote
Hey ES,

I had this kit put in mine last year. What would be the difference from the one above.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/A340E-AW4-REP...=item4cff3c118c

cheers


Hey, Ian.

The A340 is the Toyota version of the AW4. When I asked the trans guy about putting the kit above in the Mitsu A/T, he said that would work just fine, that they're all the same. So, looks to me like the only difference is the box.

OK. I take it back. Yours is an SK-340 kit. The one I'm looking at is the 340-HD2 kit. They're for the same transmissions but the SK kit doesn't have the lock in 1st feature. Also, the instructions in the HD kit detail a bunch of modifications to change several things for different uses. Looks like a much more comprehensive kit than the SK.

Quote
This will fit all 1985 and Up Aisin Warner Models below

A340 / A340E
A341 / A341E
A343 / A343E
AW4


So, that would also include the 30-43LE.

Whoohoo! Got a tail shaft housing and an output shaft. smile

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 08/14/15 11:02 PM.
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078682
08/17/15 09:27 PM
08/17/15 09:27 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Ok. Got a line on a transmission. I had the dealership check the VIN and this is what came up ...

1997 Montero Sport 4WD A/T
Aisin AW 30-43LE
96M E 67472

If anyone knows of why this wouldn't work, let me know ASAP. Planning on going down to pick it up tomorrow morning otherwise.

It comes with the torque converter but no flex plate. I'm not sure if the flex plate the '99 currently has would work or not. ???

There used to be a place here in Denver that sold beefed up lower stall torque converts. That was a LONG time ago and I don't have clue who that was anymore. Worth looking into?

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078683
08/18/15 12:41 AM
08/18/15 12:41 AM
dannytuned  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 391
St. John, IN
You will need the starter, flywheel, flywheel bolts, pilot bushing, torque conv. bolts, and the plate that sandwiches between the motor and trans.


2001Sport 3.0-Headers-Cage-RoofChop-NP231/D300-D44/ARB-Ford9/Yukon/3Link-37's+H1's-PSC Assist-108:1
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078684
08/18/15 12:44 AM
08/18/15 12:44 AM
dannytuned  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 391
St. John, IN
Quote
Does your cruise control still work?


Never had cruise on mine.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />


2001Sport 3.0-Headers-Cage-RoofChop-NP231/D300-D44/ARB-Ford9/Yukon/3Link-37's+H1's-PSC Assist-108:1
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: dannytuned] #1078685
08/19/15 01:30 AM
08/19/15 01:30 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Quote
You will need the starter, flywheel, flywheel bolts, pilot bushing, torque conv. bolts, and the plate that sandwiches between the motor and trans.


Got the torque converter w/ the transmission. Starter isn't a problem.

I got the PN# for the dipstick stuff and flex plate.

I'll have to talk to the dealership to get PN# for the T/C bolts and the flex plate bolts.

I wasn't aware there was a 'pilot bushing' on an A/T. Do you mean the Crankshaft A/T Drive Plate Adapter? The big round do-dad with all the holes that fits between the crank and flex plate?

I'm putting the AW behind a '99 3.5L. I had to use the 3.5L cylinder block plate from an '02 A/T on my M/T because the '97/98 plate wouldn't work with a 3.5L. I remember that from the 3.5L conversion. (along with the correct starter and flex plate (flywheel, in that case)

In addition, I'm going to need a different shifter. Mine has a an extra position so ....


Quote
Never had cruise on mine.


No worries. I did a some research. The PCM connection for the cruise over drive cancel signal (B+). I believe from what I've seen of the PSC docs, this signal can be supplied by the TCU. For what precious little I use cruise I'm not sure its even worth my time to connect. smile


I picked up the '97 Sport AW this morning. I'm getting read to leave for Moab on Thursday so I'm kinda crunched for time. I dug through what I could to find what I was missing + Danny's stuff above. I could only confirm a few of the parts I have below. I'll get this to the dealership so they can figure it out while I'm gone. I will clean this list up ASAP.


1997 Montero Sport 3.0L 4WD A/T "AW4"

Auto Trans (Dipstick) Tube Filler Tube (tube & o-ring seal)

MR246816 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98) (correct)

MR410582 (6-1-98 thr 5-3-99)


Auto Trans (Dipstick) Filler Tube O-Ring

MD951878 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98) (correct)


Guage, A/T Oil level (dipstick)

MR246817 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98) (correct)


Flex plate

MB919250 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98) (correct)

MR305191 (6-1-99 thr 7-3-03)


Torque converter bolts (flex plate to T/C) 6pcs

MD950120 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98)

MD713228 (6-1-98 thr 5-3-99)


Flex plate bolts (flex plate to crankshaft adapter) 8pcs

MD113400 (9-1-96 thr 7-3-03)


Adapter, Crankshaft A/T Drive Plate

MB919252 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98)

MR222860 (6-1-98 thr 7-3-04)


Bolt, T/M Connecting (dip stick bracket - lower)

MF244878 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98)

MF301372 (6-1-98 thr 5-3-99)


Bolt, Oil Strainer (dip stick bracket - upper)

MF244849 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98)


Cable, Gearshift

MR246422 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98)

MR470205 (6-1-98 thr 5-3-99)


Clip, Gearshift Link (shift cable retainer clip)

MB484289 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98)


Pin, Gearshift Link

MF472040 (9-1-96 thr 1-3-97) 2x25, split

MF472026 (9-1-96 thr 1-3-97) 1.6x20, split

MF180738 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98) 3.6x23.2, snap


Washer, Gearshift Link

MF450005 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-2000


Plate, Cylinder Block, RR (engine to A/T plate) 3.0L

MD309626 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98) 3.0L

MD348329 (6-1-99 thr 7-3-03) 3.0L

Cover, Engine Oil Pan Bolt Hole 3.0L

MD347355 (4-3-00 thr 7-3-03)


Plate, Cylinder Block, RR (engine to A/T plate) 3.5L

MD337494 (6-1-98 thr 7-3-04)

Cover, Engine Oil Pan Bolt Hole 3.5L

MD309349 (6-1-98 thr 7-3-04)

MD347355 (6-1-98 thr 7-3-04)


Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078686
08/20/15 12:12 AM
08/20/15 12:12 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Pulled out the Montero Sport FSMs ...

1997 -
R4AW3 - 2WD
V4AW3 - 4WD

1998 -
R4AW3 - 2WD
V4AW3 - 4WD

1999 -
R4A51 - 2WD
V4A51 - 4WD

1997 & 1998 use the AW4 A/T; in '99 Mitsu switched to a completely different A/T


1997 & 1998 transmission gear ratios ...

1st - 2.804
2nd - 1.531
3rd - 1.000
4th - 0.754
rev - 2.393



My new transmission ...

1997 Mitsubishi Montero Sport LS 4WD
Aisin AW 30-43LE
96M E 67472

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


1991-2001 Jeep Cherokee XJ Aisin AW4 A/T adapter housing ...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


1998-2001 Jeep Cherokee XJ Aisin AW4 A/T 23 spline output shaft ...

[Linked Image]
(not a Mitsu part, just a handy stand for photos <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )


Misc required parts (if they didn't come with the transmission; I'll post pics as I get this stuff) ...

Auto Trans (Dipstick) Tube Filler Tube (tube & o-ring seal)

MR246816 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98)

Auto Trans (Dipstick) Filler Tube O-Ring

MD951878 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98)

Guage, A/T Oil level (dipstick)

MR246817 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98)

Flex plate

MB919250 (9-1-96 thr 5-3-98) (correct)


Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 09/01/15 11:48 PM.
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078687
09/02/15 09:45 PM
09/02/15 09:45 PM
Ian Sharpe  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 315
Braidwood NSW, Australia
My unit leaked atf from the Jeep tailhousing once installed.

Bit of googling said i should have used a seal extension in the Jeep tailhousing. Anyway I sealed up the oil hole & its all been good so far. Just didnt want to pull it all out again, but I did buy the extension & will put in it (if I need to take it apart again). I'm no too fussed about fluid transfer between the 3 units (if there is any) as all 3 , ie tranny, doubler & NP242 are all running atf.


cheers


97 Exceed, 3.5l SOHC auto, 4.90 gears, ARB front locker,rear Harrop E-Locker, Magnum winch, dual transfer cases also 2008 NS swb Pajero, front bar & winch
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: Ian Sharpe] #1078688
09/03/15 06:44 PM
09/03/15 06:44 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Quote
My unit leaked atf from the Jeep tailhousing once installed.

Bit of googling said i should have used a seal extension in the Jeep tailhousing. Anyway I sealed up the oil hole & its all been good so far. Just didnt want to pull it all out again, but I did buy the extension & will put in it (if I need to take it apart again). I'm no too fussed about fluid transfer between the 3 units (if there is any) as all 3 , ie tranny, doubler & NP242 are all running atf.


cheers


Do you have a pic or link for this? I did some googling but I'm not even sure what I'm looking for so I don't know if I found it or not.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078689
09/03/15 10:12 PM
09/03/15 10:12 PM
Ian Sharpe  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 315
Braidwood NSW, Australia
The extension can be used when here is not a correct seal between the housing & the doubler input shaft because the input shaft may not be quite long enough. You may no have this problem. The extension housing comes with a seal. The seal is Timken 710058

http://www.jeep4x4center.com/teraflex-automatic-seal-extension-tf-2904400.html


97 Exceed, 3.5l SOHC auto, 4.90 gears, ARB front locker,rear Harrop E-Locker, Magnum winch, dual transfer cases also 2008 NS swb Pajero, front bar & winch
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: Ian Sharpe] #1078690
09/03/15 11:55 PM
09/03/15 11:55 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Quote
The extension can be used when here is not a correct seal between the housing & the doubler input shaft because the input shaft may not be quite long enough. You may no have this problem. The extension housing comes with a seal. The seal is Timken 710058

http://www.jeep4x4center.com/teraflex-automatic-seal-extension-tf-2904400.html


Ok, now I understand. This replaces the factory seal in the A/T extension housing and seals around the transfer case input snout where it sticks into the extension housing (over the A/T output shaft).

If I understood correctly, Nathan's docs said the short nose t-case snout was needed. I can't figure out if that meant for HIS, or in general to attach to the AW4. I thought I had this figured out but I've found Jeep posts where they say the leak is because you have the wrong snout length.

I've seen a few NP231s - AFAIKT, the only thing that changes there is the snout length. There isn't a difference in the bearing/planetary plate depth. So, ...???

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078691
09/04/15 07:54 AM
09/04/15 07:54 AM
Ian Sharpe  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 315
Braidwood NSW, Australia
yes that is correct, in my case my Behemoth doubler did not quite give the right seal, the shaft could have been a tad longer. But you may not have this problem anyway, just letting you know it might be a problem, cheers


97 Exceed, 3.5l SOHC auto, 4.90 gears, ARB front locker,rear Harrop E-Locker, Magnum winch, dual transfer cases also 2008 NS swb Pajero, front bar & winch
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078885
09/08/15 12:49 AM
09/08/15 12:49 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
UPDATE:
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L 4WD A/T
The plan ...
1. Fix the front end so its drivable! lol! Fix all the misc OEM stuff that needs taken care of
2. Remove running boards, Rhino Line below doors, rock skids
3. Electric engine cooling fans
4. Front bumper/winch
5. Intake
6. ABS delete
7. 2" body lift
8. Transmission swap, NP231 t-case & doubler
9. Rear bumper, lighting, on-board air (ARBs), upholstery (front seats)
10. SAS - ProRock 44s FR/RR w/ ARBs. Leaf rear w/torque arm. 3-link/radius arm front??
11. Exhaust


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: Ian Sharpe] #1078892
09/08/15 09:14 PM
09/08/15 09:14 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by Ian Sharpe
yes that is correct, in my case my Behemoth doubler did not quite give the right seal, the shaft could have been a tad longer. But you may not have this problem anyway, just letting you know it might be a problem, cheers


Thanks, Ian. I see what you're talking about now. I'll keep an eye on this. I still haven't decided on what crawl box I'm going to run. Still thinking Duffy's, but ....

[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
ABS delete [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078902
09/09/15 10:08 PM
09/09/15 10:08 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
I've never read anything on anyone doing an ABS delete on a Montero or Montero Sport and nothing showed up on search, so ....

My '99 Limited has ABS. Oh, whoopee. frown I've already had one run-in with ABS off road on my '03. That was one time too many.

Anyway, I'm still planning on the Dynatrac axles for the build. So, even if I was planning on keeping ABS I'd still need the axles built with tone rings and sensors that'll work with the Mitsu ABS. I have no idea if that's even possible - I'm pretty sure I don't want to know.

I went through the 3G/GT/EVO forums - looks like replacement of the ABS proportioning valve with the regular non-ABS valve, and non-ABS hard lines under the hood. That coincides with what I saw under the hood and in the FSMs. Pull the ABS pump system/controller, replace the lines and valve and that's it on the mechanical side.

On the electrical side, I'm not so sure. Has anyone been through this?

Another question that I couldn't even find a mention of is if ABS fault(s) shows up in OBD-II. I know it does in CAN in latter years, but .... The PCM does have a 'bus' line for ABS so I'm concerned that removing the ABS might trigger CEL and a code. That will not work for me as CO emissions testing changed their rules this year to FAIL if CEL is on or any code is present.

Anyone have any insight on this?

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: ABS delete [Re: ES_97Sport] #1078903
09/09/15 10:19 PM
09/09/15 10:19 PM
dannytuned  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 391
St. John, IN
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
looks like replacement of the ABS proportioning valve with the regular non-ABS valve


This is what I did, with all new lines. Then I stripped the harness of every abs wire and component(freed up a few circuits), including the wire that powers the trouble light on the cluster.

My scanner says no codes are present, although I've not had my Sport in a testing lane, yet.



2001Sport 3.0-Headers-Cage-RoofChop-NP231/D300-D44/ARB-Ford9/Yukon/3Link-37's+H1's-PSC Assist-108:1
Re: ABS delete [Re: dannytuned] #1078931
09/11/15 08:55 PM
09/11/15 08:55 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by dannytuned
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
looks like replacement of the ABS proportioning valve with the regular non-ABS valve


This is what I did, with all new lines. Then I stripped the harness of every abs wire and component(freed up a few circuits), including the wire that powers the trouble light on the cluster.

My scanner says no codes are present, although I've not had my Sport in a testing lane, yet.


Thanks, Danny! That's good to hear. I know the GT/Eclipse stuff is very close to the '90s Montero and Montero Sport stuff but there are differences so you never know for sure. smile

I may talk to the tech and see if he's up to pulling the pump and replacing the valve and lines. Now that they've moved the Mitsu guys to Hyundai there might not be as much leeway in what they're allowed to do. I don't have nearly as much free time as I did when the big Sport was done. frown

I'm glad they have a separate ABS indicator. Some have suggested pulling the CEL but they check EVERYTHING here now. Sigh.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: ABS delete [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079099
09/22/15 11:54 PM
09/22/15 11:54 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Danny, where did you finally end up mounting the resistors and heat sink?

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: ABS delete [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079101
09/23/15 01:25 AM
09/23/15 01:25 AM
dannytuned  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 391
St. John, IN
Was one of those temporary spots that may become permanent. smile

[Linked Image]


2001Sport 3.0-Headers-Cage-RoofChop-NP231/D300-D44/ARB-Ford9/Yukon/3Link-37's+H1's-PSC Assist-108:1
Re: ABS delete [Re: dannytuned] #1079113
09/23/15 10:40 PM
09/23/15 10:40 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by dannytuned
Was one of those temporary spots that may become permanent. smile ....


Lol! Thanks, Danny. I knew you'd said you were going to relocate it so I wanted to check. I have a couple of these myself. grin grin

BTW, I got a flex plate and that crank plate on the way. Those two pieces are getting HARD to find. frown Cheap at the dealership but the crank plate isn't in the US. frown

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 09/23/15 10:41 PM.

'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
AW4 shifter [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079118
09/25/15 12:00 AM
09/25/15 12:00 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
The existing plan is still to run the PSC TCU with the '97 Mitsu AW4 I got a couple weeks back along with the Transgo 340-HD2 shift improver kit. I picked up the adapter housing and the Jeep output shaft. Transmission shop says this is all goodness.

I want a compact dual t-case shifter setup that will fit within the existing area on the stock console. Exactly like the JK Advance Adapters Rubi-Crawler setup pictured below. I couldn't do this before because of the limited space between the body and the transmission/adapter, transfer case and doubler. With a 2" body lift that's no longer an issue so I'll have the space to run the shift cables at the top of the tunnel instead of along the side as I did on my '97 Sport.

[Linked Image]

The kit below is expensive and I'll still have to make a few modifications but this is effectively the same shift assembly as the picture except without the Advance Adapters "42R650 : Jeep JK Twin Stick Shifter knobs". Its also EXACTLY what I wanted the first go-around. smile

303008L : JK ATLAS II SHIFTER (#303008L)

That pretty much takes care of the transmission, transfer case and crawl box/doubler except for how to shift the transmission. I think I have the A/T shifting figured out. I've been emailing Rory at Radesigns.

Previously mentioned in the thread was Radesigns' Rail II kit for manual shift of the AW4. It doesn't replace the stock shifter - that is still required for P, R, N and D. Its a slick design but brings me up to four shifters in the cab. I still can't figure out any way to mount the Rail II within easy reach on the trail that wouldn't be a PITA the rest of the time. AFAIKT, it doesn't matter because the existing stock shifter won't work with the AW4 or the PSC TCU.

So after much more surfing and reading I started looking at the Winters Shifter that Radesigns sells. When I originally looked at it weeks ago, I didn't understand exactly how it worked. Some surfing on Pirate and a couple emails to Rory fixed that.

Winters Shifter & Switch Kits - Radesigns Products LLC

What really got my attention were the following two images.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I really liked the gate modifications in the first pic but didn't particularly like the shift sequences. For some reason they don't make sense to me off road. The second pic made a lot more sense to me - like the Rail II - but didn't show the gate mods.

I emailed Rory to make sure what I was thinking was actually possible. This shifter will work with the PSC TCU in 'automatic' (or normal A/T operation), but it will also operate the AW4 in full manual mode - JUST like the Rail II with a factory shifter. Only one shifter is required to get both full auto and full manual modes.

I wasn't sure if he sold the configuration in the second picture so I asked and he said, yes. $500.
That's the shifter with the appropriate switch setup installed. He will also modify the gates to match the first picture.

I was fairly sure the Transgo shift kit wouldn't conflict with anything but I wanted to make sure. Rory said that no, it would be fine, and in fact he uses it with the exact same setup I'm talking about running. Good stuff to hear. smile

Tomorrow I'm going to look at the shifter dimensions. Based on my rough guesstimates, it should fit in the stock location pretty nicely. I plan to make a new console top plate out of something so I can get a nice finished look with the t-case shifters and Winters shifter.

Anyways, it was good to get confirmation from Rory that all this will work the way I need it to.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Flex plate, crank to flex plate adapter, bolts [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079121
09/25/15 10:30 PM
09/25/15 10:30 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Corrected PN#s for the following ...

Mitsubishi (1997/98) -

1 - Flex plate PN# MB919250
1 - Adapter plate PN# MD337494
8 - (flex plate to) Crank bolts PN# MD113400
6 - Torque converter (to flex plate) bolts PN# MD950120
1 - A/T Oil level gauge PN# MR246817

Chrysler (1997-2001) -

1 - Transmission filler tube PN# 53002870
1 - Transmission dip stick (no longer sold) PN# 52104146
1 - Transmission filler tube o-ring PN# 53003977

I haven't been able to find a used Sport fill tube. Mitsu no longer sells it and its not easy to come by separate from the transmission. The one listed above from Chrysler is for the (post-'96) Cherokee AW4 with the inline engine. Hopefully it'll fit, but it'll be a couple months before I get to swap in the new transmission. Unfortunately, Chrysler no longer sells the dip stick. I have no idea if the Chrysler fill tube and Mitsu dip stick are compatible lengths. At least its easier to find Cherokees in the junk yards. smile


1997 A/T Flex plate
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
1997 A/T Crank/Flex plate spacer plate
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Mitsubishi AW4 transmission fill tube and dipstick [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079222
10/06/15 10:04 PM
10/06/15 10:04 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
So, I got the transmission, TC, flex plate, little metal round adapter thing, and the bolts are at the dealership waiting for me to pick them up.

I can't find a A/T fill tube for a '97/98 Montero Sport transmission. Mitsu still makes the dipstick but doesn't make the fill tube the dipstick goes in. :rolleyes:

I tried Chrysler - picked one up Thursday. The Jeep fill tube doesn't fit right. Not even reasonably close - which makes me question whether the Chrysler dipstick would read the correct level if I could use it.

<edit>
Figured out the Chrysler problem. Doh! Fill tube is on the opposite side of the transmission. So it might still work with the appropriate transmission pan.

NAXJA
[Linked Image]

Morris 4x4 Center - 1987-2001 Cherokee XJ AW4 Transmission Pan
<edit>

Anybody got one or got a line on where I can get one? Or one that would interchange?? confused

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 10/07/15 12:18 AM.

'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Mitsubishi AW4 transmission fill tube and dipstick [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079312
10/14/15 09:37 PM
10/14/15 09:37 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Engine bay photos of the 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L. I'm still working on getting a dipstick tube for my A/T. frown After taking a good look at things, I believe I can use the Cherokee A/T pan, fill tube and dipstick. Of course, there's no way to tell if the tube will clear until I try to put it all together, but it looks like everything would be ok. The exhaust is the only thing in that passenger side firewall/engine area. The only thing that I really noticed is that the Montero/Sport tube comes up at more of an angle - ok, and its on the DR side smile - than the Cherokee which comes almost straight up into the engine bay.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: AW4 shifter [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079314
10/14/15 11:47 PM
10/14/15 11:47 PM
TOASTY  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,126
Mesa AZ, US. *****
[Linked Image]


This is almost how my LC manual shift gate is but 5 speed. Pretty cool, Lordtrunks is running a Winters shifter. Looks like nice piece of equipment.


1999 Montero Blizzard package

2005 Montero Limited

2015 Mirage with antifreeze Sparco wheel package
Re: AW4 shifter [Re: TOASTY] #1079324
10/16/15 10:26 PM
10/16/15 10:26 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by TOASTY
... This is almost how my LC manual shift gate is but 5 speed. Pretty cool, Lordtrunks is running a Winters shifter. Looks like nice piece of equipment.


Yea, I'm pretty jazed to get this, the A/T and the TCU in so I can try the shifter. smile I talked to a hill climb friend of mine last week. He runs a similar shifter on his race truck. Loves it.

I HOPE this works as well as it seems it will because it looks like I may have to convert my '97 3.5L conversion M/T to A/T. I'm having a hell of a time getting the M/T rebuilt. Parts are getting really hard to get and I can't find anyone here in CO that can rebuild a M/T and actually get it right. frown I'll know here before the end of December I'm guessing, but its starting to look like a good bet that my new A/T will end up in my '97 along with the shifter and TCU. Which means this build will be delayed by a few months.

I guess on the plus side, dropping the A/T into my '97 shouldn't be more than a weekend job. New drive shafts would be all I'd need since everything else is already set up for a NP. smile

At least one of the guys thinks he's found me a couple Sport dipstick tubes. That was good news for the week! smile

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Brake master cylinders [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079399
10/28/15 12:09 AM
10/28/15 12:09 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Does anyone remember or know if the GT3000 brake master cylinder have the same bolt dimensions and outside bore dimensions as the Montero/Montero Sport? Looks like the Montero/Montero Sport is 15/16" bore and the GT3000 is 1" bore.

If this is an easy bolt up I want to try this on my '97 Sport as a test for doing the same on the '99.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Brake master cylinders [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079405
10/29/15 01:49 AM
10/29/15 01:49 AM
TOASTY  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,126
Mesa AZ, US. *****
No idea, but I do know that there is a certain model Montero Sport with 1" bore. Don't know which ones came with them but I have swapped them onto my Monteros from junkyard Sports. I just always check the master cylinders at the yards, seems to be a late model thing though. Sports came with all sorts of wacky combinations of things.


1999 Montero Blizzard package

2005 Montero Limited

2015 Mirage with antifreeze Sparco wheel package
Re: Brake master cylinders [Re: TOASTY] #1079420
11/02/15 08:35 PM
11/02/15 08:35 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by TOASTY
No idea, but I do know that there is a certain model Montero Sport with 1" bore. Don't know which ones came with them but I have swapped them onto my Monteros from junkyard Sports. I just always check the master cylinders at the yards, seems to be a late model thing though. Sports came with all sorts of wacky combinations of things.


Thanks, Toasty!

Yea, I know. laugh laugh Worse than dealing with '60s Pontiacs and Chevys. laugh

Hmmmm. I'll have to check the Gen 2 FSMs. Didn't look like any of the 3.0L Gen 1 Sports did. Maybe the '99 3.5L ....

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Brake master cylinders [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079423
11/03/15 02:01 AM
11/03/15 02:01 AM
TOASTY  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,126
Mesa AZ, US. *****
Check your '03 just to see


1999 Montero Blizzard package

2005 Montero Limited

2015 Mirage with antifreeze Sparco wheel package
Re: Brake master cylinders [Re: TOASTY] #1079426
11/03/15 10:54 PM
11/03/15 10:54 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by TOASTY
Check your '03 just to see


I'll check the FSMs when I get home tonight. My electronic versions don't have the specifications. frown

Mighty Ram 50 - Merrill's 4G64 DOHC

About half way down he has some Mitsu brake master cylinder information. I thought many eons ago that was confirmed here but that information might not be around anymore. Anyway, sounded familiar.

I have a '98 GT3000 BMC and booster that came in yesterday, so I'll take some quick measurements tonight before the snow sets in. frown I need to talk to Dynatrac and find out what calipers they use on the front. If its the same 1/2 GM like I have now then a 1 1/16" is plenty big enough.

The 1" should be plenty on my black Sport. Hopefully that and a Wilson 4-way proportioning valve will shut everyone up about my brakes. frown

<edit>
2003 Limited 3.5L AWD - RAYBESTOS MC390655 1"

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 11/04/15 01:48 AM.

'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079431
11/05/15 01:53 AM
11/05/15 01:53 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Master brake cylinder information -

I compared the 3000GT SOHC 1" master cylinder to my '03 Sport and my big '97 Sport this morning. They look identical with the exception of the fluid reservoir. I think the push rod depth is different between the Sport BMCs and the 3000GT BMCs. Anyway, it looks like all the Gen 1 Sports came with 15/16" BMCs. At least that's what the FSMs say. smile

On a positive note, the 3000GT BMC fluid reservoir doesn't interfere with anything and isn't in the way on either the Gen 1 or Gen 2 Sports so if the BMC fits, there wouldn't be any need to change reservoirs. I checked this on my '97 3.5L and '03 3.5L. I figured if anything was going to conflict, it would show up on the 3.5L.

I'm going to see if I have a spare Sport BMC so I can compare actual measurements.

3000GT SOHC 3.0L Non-ABS (late '90s)
RAYBESTOS MC39984 (1" bore)

3000GT DOHC/Turbo VR4/Spyder ABS (late '90s)
RAYBESTOS MC39983 (1 1/16" bore)

2003 Limited 3.5L AWD
RAYBESTOS MC390655 (1" bore)

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079432
11/05/15 07:53 PM
11/05/15 07:53 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
1997 Montero Sport 3.0L LS 4WD Wide - 15/16"

1999 Montero Sport 3.5L Limited 4WD Wide - 15/16"

2003 Montero Sport 3.5L Limited AWD Wide - 1"

1999 Montero Sport 2WD/4WD - 15/16" - according to the FSMs


Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079462
11/10/15 01:38 AM
11/10/15 01:38 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Yea! I have got a stock Gen 1 15/16" BMC in today. All I can say is better never need a BMC TODAY here in Denver. Everyone I talked to has to order it including the dealerships. I also got the 3000GT VR4 BMC in today, too.

I'll pull the calipers out tonight when I get home, but so far eyeballing them ...

The OD of the end that sticks in the booster is cast smaller on the Gen 1 BMC, but has a machined 1/4" shoulder where it centers in the booster. The 3000GT VR4 1 1/16" is machined the entire length and looks like its the same OD as the shoulder on the Gen 1 BMC.

The length of the 'snout' that fits in the booster is the same for both. The depth inside the snout where the piston C clip sits is also the same. I can't accurately see if the depth inside the piston (where the rod sits) is the same without using a gauge.

Bolt pattern is the same, flange is the same thickness, bolt diameter appears to be the same. Outlets are in exactly the same spots as well.

The push-rod between the brake booster and BMC is adjustable. I didn't expect it to not be, but the tech told me that there are some Mitsu boosters that do not have an adjustable push-rod. With my luck I expected that to by something I own. laugh

There is a TSB (TSB-97-35-003) on the '90s - '92-97ish - 3000GT, Montero Sport, Montero and a couple other things I can't remember, brake booster master cylinder push-rod adjustment. The adjustment procedure changed from using a ruler and block to using a Mitsu 'special tool' - P/N MB991714. By some sheer stroke of luck someone was getting rid of one on eBay Friday so I snagged it. I've used the ruler technique before. I looked through the 'new' instructions using the tool which are in the '98+ Sport FSMs. This has GOT to be easier than doing it with a ruler. frown

I guess none of this is probably earth shattering news to anyone but me. smile I'm happy its looking more and more like a direct swap. The 1 1/16" should take care of the only thing anyone ever complains about on my '97 SAS and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this will be the ONLY thing - besides swapping proportioning valves for the Wilwood 4-way - that I'll have to do on the '99 that's brake related.

Anyway, I'll get all the dimensions posted up tomorrow for the 15/16", 1" and 1 1/16".

Oh, BTW, there is (sometimes) a difference between the non-ABS and ABS brake master cylinders. Its the bore size. ABS usually - but not always - comes with a BMC with a larger bore. According to the 3000GT guys this is the ONLY difference and basically the only way to tell the 1" and 1 1/16" BMCs apart. I can't argue with them there - I have both for the same year 3000GT and they're otherwise identical. Good thing they cast the size on them. smile

And the Gen 1 Sport ABS is 3-channel, not 4-channel like I thought. smile

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079465
11/10/15 08:09 PM
11/10/15 08:09 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Raybestos MC390156, Mitsubishi MB699830
1997-2003 Montero Sport, 1992-2000 Montero - non-ABS/ABS
15/16" Bore

Bore OD - 1.37"
Piston depth - .9614"
Bolt width - 3.1465"
Bolt hole dia. - .36"
Piston 'snout' length - .6155"
Fittings - M10x1


Raybestos MC39983, Mitsubishi MB699681
1991-1999 3000GT VR4, Spyder, SL - w/ABS
1 1/16" Bore

Bore OD - 1.375"
Piston depth - .9244"
Bolt width - 3.151"
Bolt hole dia. - .353"
Piston 'snout' length - .5930"
Fittings - M10x1

The piston depth is not entirely accurate. I measured it with a flat ended depth gauge and the inside of the cup is slightly rounded so I expect this is off by a couple 1/1000s. I did measure everything with the same tool, the same way, though. smile

By my measurements, there's only a 0.0145" difference between the Sport and GT cup depths measured from the mounting flange. Little enough that the push-rod can be adjusted if necessary.

Nothing else was off by more than manufacturing tolerances.

Oh, I didn't bother posting the 1" specs because I already know that the 1" and 1 1/16" are interchangeable. Figured that would be a little redundant. smile

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 11/10/15 08:29 PM.

'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079470
11/11/15 04:36 PM
11/11/15 04:36 PM
TOASTY  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,126
Mesa AZ, US. *****
Good tech dude!


1999 Montero Blizzard package

2005 Montero Limited

2015 Mirage with antifreeze Sparco wheel package
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079493
11/11/15 08:21 PM
11/11/15 08:21 PM
off-roader  Offline
Web Wheeler
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 16,224
Bay Area, CA *****
def good tech here!


Off Roader
96SR (3.15:1 xcase, 35's)
96SR Build Up Thread
Old web page
Old web page
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079555
11/11/15 10:28 PM
11/11/15 10:28 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
Raybestos MC390156, Mitsubishi MB699830
1997-2003 Montero Sport, 1992-2000 Montero - non-ABS/ABS
15/16" Bore

Bore OD - 1.37"
Piston depth - .9614"
Bolt width - 3.1465"
Bolt hole dia. - .36"
Piston 'snout' length - .6155"
Fittings - M10x1


Raybestos MC39983, Mitsubishi MB699681
1991-1999 3000GT VR4, Spyder, SL - w/ABS
1 1/16" Bore

Bore OD - 1.375"
Piston depth - .9244"
Bolt width - 3.151"
Bolt hole dia. - .353"
Piston 'snout' length - .5930"
Fittings - M10x1

Thanks guys.

DANG! I just realized frown ... I measured Piston Depth from the end of the snout (that goes into the booster). I laid a 1/64" straight edge across the casting and measured the depth from that minus 1/64".

I think that normally, the depth of the piston is measured from the flange. So, in that case it'd be the distance from the flange to the bottom of the piston cup.

Anyway, a little math with the above numbers will get that figure if anyone needs it. I just wanted to clarify.

If someone wants a different measurement, let me know. The 15/16" will be going back shortly and I'm planning on putting the 1 1/16" in maybe this weekend. Won't have anything to measure from. Again. laugh

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 11/11/15 10:28 PM.

'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079600
11/17/15 12:21 AM
11/17/15 12:21 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
I mocked up all three brake master cylinders - 15/16", 1" and 1 1/16" - on a '98 booster. They all fit fine. If I could find a 1" BMC for a Sport - without taking the one off my '03 - I'd try that, too. Brake master cylinders are hard to get here without ordering it and at this point its not worth the time to mess with. IMHO, if someone needs a 1" BMC for a '90s something they could just as easily use the 3000GT non-ABS BMC.

Pictured below is the Mitsubishi tool used to measure and set the brake booster push rod for the master cylinder. It is WAY easier to use than a block and ruler. laugh laugh

I checked the factory setting on the 1" BMC that came on the booster. It was actually off by just a hair, but it was noticeable. I checked the 1 1/16" MC and it was almost dead on - maybe 1/4 turn. Then I checked the Gen 1 Sport BMC and it looked to be off by about what I came up with by doing the math. I'm guessing maybe two turns.

The only other thing I found that was noteworthy was the instructions in the FSMs. They say to use a tiny 1/4" ratchet and deep socket (or extension) to turn the adjuster while holding the base inside the booster with an angle nosed long needle-nose pliers. Someone might have some other tool that might work but I don't. Glad I bought a pair a while back.

Didn't get a chance to mount the new BMC on the big Sport this weekend. I decided that before pulling everything off and swapping BMCs, I wanted to take measurements of fr/rr brake line pressure at the caliper so I know where I'm starting from especially if I have to install an adjustable proportioning valve. Since I'll be replacing the OEM valve entirely, I'd like to know what OEM looks like so I can set the new valve to something I know works. Anyway, didn't have the measuring tools 'till today and forgot the MC bleeder kit at the office Fri. Sigh.

Mitsubishi Brake Booster Push-rod Adjustment Tool MB991714-01
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


1998 Mitsubishi 3000GT N/A non-ABS Brake Booster
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 11/17/15 12:27 AM.

'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079626
11/23/15 10:53 PM
11/23/15 10:53 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Uh, does any one know what this is? 3000GT 1 1/16" BMC PN# 54311 in the pic below. It looks like a cup and it slides down inside and loosely sits in the brake fluid reservoir. It sits above the fluid level sensor.

I was looking at the new BMCs yesterday, trying to decide whether to swap fluid reservoirs with the Montero Sport reservoir and noticed the 1 1/16" BMC had this 'cup' thing inside. It immediately made me think of fuel cell baffling for anti-slosh or starvation. Neither of which make sense to me on a car. I know the GT will pull 1G+, but .... This would make a lot more sense on an off road vehicle if its what it looks like.

[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079627
11/24/15 02:03 AM
11/24/15 02:03 AM
dannytuned  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 391
St. John, IN
I think it's a float for the sensor.


2001Sport 3.0-Headers-Cage-RoofChop-NP231/D300-D44/ARB-Ford9/Yukon/3Link-37's+H1's-PSC Assist-108:1
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: dannytuned] #1079628
11/24/15 08:22 PM
11/24/15 08:22 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by dannytuned
I think it's a float for the sensor.


Nope. That's PN# 54021. In the images below, this would be the peach and baby blue parts.

This is the Montero/Montero Sport BMC.
[Linked Image]

The sensor float assembly is the peach colored rectangle.
[Linked Image]

This is the 3000GT VR4 BMC.
[Linked Image]

The sensor float assembly is the baby blue colored rectangle.
[Linked Image]

This is the 'cup' thing that sits inside. It just sits there loosely. It falls right out if you turn it upside down. There's space between it an the sensor float - the two are not connected.
[Linked Image]

This is the reservoir with the 'cup' installed. If you look closely at the slots around the outside edge, you'll see that their screened off from below.
[Linked Image]

Mystery part of the month. confused

I spent a bunch of time yesterday surfing. I can't find another image anywhere of this, or even an approximation in some other manufacturer's BMC. No explanations, not even a mention on any other forum. I've never seen anything like this in any other Mitsu BMC.

I checked and it doesn't appear to be in the 1" 3000GT BMC, either. Only the VR4 1 1/16" BMC.

The only purpose I can see for this is to prevent sucking air into the BMC and lines under very hard cornering conditions and/or to keep the sensor float from signaling low fluid level under the same conditions. Like I said above, its a loose fit so its not like those screens are going to keep any crud smaller than a BB out of the lower half of the bowl.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079644
11/30/15 11:43 PM
11/30/15 11:43 PM
TOASTY  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,126
Mesa AZ, US. *****
Every Gen 2 I've ever owned has that screen, they seem to fit reasonably tight on the ones I've had.


1999 Montero Blizzard package

2005 Montero Limited

2015 Mirage with antifreeze Sparco wheel package
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: TOASTY] #1079645
12/01/15 12:18 AM
12/01/15 12:18 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by TOASTY
Every Gen 2 I've ever owned has that screen, they seem to fit reasonably tight on the ones I've had.


Thanks Toasty. Weird. I've gone through half a dozen OEM Gen 1 Sport BMCs over the years and none of them have it. My '03 still has the original - doesn't have it. My little '97 was replaced four years ago with an OEM new - not rebuilt - BMC, it doesn't either. I've replaced the big Sport's three or four times over the years. One aftermarket from Napa and 2-3 OEM new units from Mitsu. I know for certain the aftermarket didn't and none of the OEM ones have had it either.

Do you have any idea what its for? The 3G BMC is definitely not reasonably tight. Its not even kinda snug. If you flip it on its side more than 90 degrees it just slides out. Its not so loose that it rattles around but ....

I'm taking the big Sport in tomorrow morning. The tech is going to do a brake pressure test (front/rear) on the existing system, swap in the 3G BMC, and then do another pressure test. I want a benchmark and an 'after' reading before/if I start messing with an adjustable proportioning valve.

Stock readings are in the FSMs. Be interesting to see what he comes back with. I've started paying more attention to the difference between my '97 & '99 with the 15/16" BMC and my '03 with the 1". There is DEFINITELY a difference. Both the Gen 1s had the brake system completely gone through in the last three weeks and the '03 flushed, bled etc. last year. Brake performance feels the same, but the Gen 1s have a much firmer, higher pedal. The '03 feels more like my big Sport, with a little more pedal travel and a little 'squishyier'. Takes less pressure on the pedal to haul down the Gen 1s compared to the '03. The behavior is about what I now expect based on the reading I've done.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079646
12/01/15 01:42 AM
12/01/15 01:42 AM
TOASTY  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,126
Mesa AZ, US. *****
Maybe the Sports didn't come with the little baffle or whatever? I've noticed over the years that the Montero parts are slightly different than their Sport contemporaries even parts that look exactly the same. For example the Montero vs it's identical Sport steering wheel is slightly different internally and a lot of pieces on the Montero are more "finished" than on the sport. The trucks are built in the same plant but I maybe the Sport parts come from Thailand where the Triton is built?


1999 Montero Blizzard package

2005 Montero Limited

2015 Mirage with antifreeze Sparco wheel package
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: TOASTY] #1079649
12/01/15 08:35 PM
12/01/15 08:35 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by TOASTY
Maybe the Sports didn't come with the little baffle or whatever? I've noticed over the years that the Montero parts are slightly different than their Sport contemporaries even parts that look exactly the same. For example the Montero vs it's identical Sport steering wheel is slightly different internally and a lot of pieces on the Montero are more "finished" than on the sport. The trucks are built in the same plant but I maybe the Sport parts come from Thailand where the Triton is built?


Talked to the Mitsu tech: No, never seen them on the Sports. Yes, seen them on the VR4, No, not on the 'regular' 3G. Hit and miss on the Montero. Says they're there to keep the 'crud' out of the brake system. Also said they need to be removed to do a brake flush. He thinks I may be (partially) correct about that being kind of an anti-slosh/baffle device to help prevent getting air in the brake system.

Maybe. I don't know. As far as I know at this point, Nabco is the manufacturer for all the OEM BMCs for Mitsu. Cars, trucks, SUVs, etc. If there's a difference in the Montero BMC vs the Sport BMC, I can't find it. smile

I'm more curious about what its really for then what it comes in. The tech wheels a truggy and he's run into the same problem of sucking air on the trail. He uses the same solution I do to try to mitigate the problem - over fill the BMC. Not exactly the best idea. frown I looked at the BMC again last night. Unless fluid flows through those screens freer than it looks like it would, it looks like it'll keep fluid contained over the ports irrespective of how much bouncing even if the fluid level drops to between full and add. How much help it would be when you stand the vehicle on its butt is questionable but it probably wouldn't hurt. smile I'd just be happy to not have to do a brake bleed 1-2 times a year. laugh

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079652
12/01/15 09:54 PM
12/01/15 09:54 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Brake master cylinder trivia. smile From what I've learned, this makes sense. As the volume of the caliper increases, the diameter of the BMC piston increases to feed the larger volume calipers.

Front DSMTalk: "From what I've learned the brake master cylinder on the RS, GS, and GS-T have 15/16" bore (single piston calipers), GSX and base/non VR4 3kgt have 1" bore (two piston calipers), and the VR4 3kgt have an 1 1/16" (four piston calipers)."

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079653
12/02/15 02:01 AM
12/02/15 02:01 AM
TOASTY  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,126
Mesa AZ, US. *****
I'm running the stock Mighty Max master cylinder with my SAS (4 piston Toyota calipers front and 1 piston Montero calipers rear) interestingly the first gen MM Master cylinder was the same size bore and looked to be about the same stroke as the stock Hilux MC. Works like I think it should. How much wiggle room do we have?


1999 Montero Blizzard package

2005 Montero Limited

2015 Mirage with antifreeze Sparco wheel package
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: TOASTY] #1079656
12/03/15 06:59 PM
12/03/15 06:59 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by TOASTY
I'm running the stock Mighty Max master cylinder with my SAS (4 piston Toyota calipers front and 1 piston Montero calipers rear) interestingly the first gen MM Master cylinder was the same size bore and looked to be about the same stroke as the stock Hilux MC. Works like I think it should. How much wiggle room do we have?


Do you know what the Mighty Max cylinder bore size is? I thought I ran across that a week ago and it was 15/16" like the '90s Montero and Sport. Curious, 'cause I think I saw that the bore on the BMC for the 4 piston Toy calipers is 1". The 1 piston Mitsu calipers uses the 15/16" BMC.

What size tires are your running? I think Danny's running 37"s. I've been meaning to ask him how the brakes work on his Sport SAS.

"How much wiggle room do we have?" What do you mean?

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079661
12/03/15 11:46 PM
12/03/15 11:46 PM
TOASTY  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,126
Mesa AZ, US. *****
It's a 15/16" and i'm running 35x13.5 Toyo M/T which are really heavy. It stops really well that's what I meant by wiggle room, how much will a 16th hurt my performance vs piston size, amount of calipers/pistons as well as the other variables like brake booster size and pedal leverage?
Like my booster is half the size of the original Hilux booster and I was seriously worried about this but I cannot fit a larger booster (physically impossible) but fortunately for me it works perfectly and there's really no noticeable difference in braking feel from the donor rig. What's your take? Luck?


1999 Montero Blizzard package

2005 Montero Limited

2015 Mirage with antifreeze Sparco wheel package
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: TOASTY] #1079671
12/07/15 12:55 AM
12/07/15 12:55 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
The 1 1/16" BMC is installed in my '97 SAS'd Sport. That one runs the Chevy K10 callipers front and Exploder late '90s/early '00s callipers rear with Powerslot rotors and Hawk 'green' pads all the way around.

Everything installed as expected. Just a simple bolt in replacement for the OEM 15/16" BMC. The only thing of note was making sure to install the 'filter cup' right side up. smile It has a top and bottom and apparently it came to me installed up side down which was why the fit was so loose. Having the Mitsu tool to adjust the booster push rod made the tech's life significantly easier. Another tool I'm not going to be without in the future is a brake pressure test set for testing brake pressure at the callipers and BMC. Its already proved to be a very useful tool.

I liked how my brakes were before with the OEM 15/16" BMC. The only real complaint I had was how much force it took to hold on a hill and that they had a VERY slight tendency to bleed down while sitting with a foot on the pedal. The latter seemed to be almost entirely due to the brakes not being bled completely or correctly - or both. The former was a real PITA if I had to sit for 20-30 minutes on the trail but thankfully that was a fairly rare occurrence. Otherwise, there was never an issue with stopping. The only complaint of others driving it was how squishy the pedal was and how much travel there was.

All of that is now gone. The feel is so close to an OEM Gen 1 Sport that if I hadn't been driving both my stock '97 and '99 for the last few days - both of which have had the entire brake system run through in the last three weeks - I don't know if I'd be able to tell any difference between the three.

The new BMC set up is more sensitive to foot pressure than the old set up but its absolutely rock solid stable and predictable. There is absolutely NO leak down. I tested that sitting in a drive-through for 20 minutes. frown Hill hold is fantastic! It isn't necessary to actually press on the pedal. Just the pressure of resting my foot on the pedal is sufficient.

I did a couple hard 'highway' stops from 55-60 MPH. I didn't attempt a 'panic' stop, first because I don't lock up the brakes in lifted modified vehicles, but mostly because we have a LOT of crud on the roads since the last snow. Too much gravel and sand on the roads for it to be safe.

Anyway, brake performance is as good if not better than it was with the 15/16" BMC. Its hard to tell, but its definitely not worse and it takes less pressure on the pedal to brake the same distance. That's great - thatís the one thing I was afraid of changing since the bigger BMC bore produces less pressure and I wasn't going to tinker with the pedal ratio.

Front/rear pressure wasn't great with the 15/16" BMC. I had them do a steady, moderately heavy pedal press, not a panic stop so pressures are not maximum, but they are consistent. Something like 750/600 F/R with the stock OEM BMC. This isn't terribly accurate - I was primarily interested in getting the rear pressure as I already knew the front wouldn't be an accurate reading. The new BMC came in at about 1100/700 F/R. This is an accurate reading for both F & R.

Roughly the proportioning percentage F/R should be around 60/40 loaded and 70/30 unloaded +/-. The new 1 1/16" BMC with the OEM '97 Sport non-ABS valve and the above callipers/pads produces almost a 60/40 split - like 61/39. That's good with a heavy load in the cargo area - I normally have 500-600 lbs of gear in the back - but bad if the vehicle is empty. frown Empty should be more like 70/30 with about 550 psi in the rear, +/- a little depending on the pad/rotor combination. Figure with my rotors/pads 550 should be pretty dang close. That'll send another 150 psi to the front which will actually improve the front braking a noticeable bit more.

So, the big '97 will stay on the OEM valve until it becomes strictly a DD. When that happens, all the gear comes out and goes in the new '99 and I'll change out the OEM proportioning valve for the Wilwood and set the pressure ratios to what I talked about above. The '99 will get a Wilwood when I pull the ABS here shortly and I'll set it to the 'loaded' values since it'll have a cargo bay full of gear all the time once its finished.

I'm a LOT less concerned with whether this set up will work with 37"s now. I think the most I'll have to do - if I have to do anything - is switch to a little more aggressive pad. I don't want to because I REALLY like the Hawk 'green' pads, but since the '99 won't be a DD I expect I'll live. smile

So, right now I'm ecstatic! This BMC is as close to a perfect match to the callipers I'm using as I can expect. Between the 1-ton steering last spring and this, its like driving a different vehicle. laugh Now, if the 3G BMC wasn't so insanely expensive! frown


1997 Montero Sport OEM Brake Master Cylinder
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

1997 Montero Sport w/ 3000GT VR4 Brake Master Cylinder
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The booster hose is in a different location between the 'OEM' (stock 3.0L) pictures and the '3G' (transplanted 3.5L) pictures. smile One more minor difference between the 3.0L and 3.5L.

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 12/07/15 12:56 AM.

'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: TOASTY] #1079672
12/07/15 02:06 AM
12/07/15 02:06 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by TOASTY
It's a 15/16" and i'm running 35x13.5 Toyo M/T which are really heavy. It stops really well that's what I meant by wiggle room, how much will a 16th hurt my performance vs piston size, amount of calipers/pistons as well as the other variables like brake booster size and pedal leverage?


Based on the numbers I've seen, more than you would think. 1/16" is tiny if you're measuring distance, but adding 1/16" or 1/8" in diameter ... you're talking about significant double digit increases in the percentage of area increase.

This is a really good read and he shows the math ...

4x4Wire - BRAKE UPGRADES

What I expected based on his math is exactly what I ended up with. His calculations seem to be pretty dang accurate. Its pretty easy to figure out what you have now, and what you'd end up with if its not on his chart.

In my experience there's very little room between crap and awesome brakes and its really blurry in the middle. frown Yes, there's wiggle in that a change 1/16" one way or the other won't result in totally inoperable brakes, but there's very little wiggle between 'ok' brakes and optimally operating brakes. Which makes sense. You need to move as much fluid as you need to move. Its just physics. Its not subject to interpretation. smile smile

Quote
Like my booster is half the size of the original Hilux booster and I was seriously worried about this but I cannot fit a larger booster (physically impossible) but fortunately for me it works perfectly and there's really no noticeable difference in braking feel from the donor rig. What's your take? Luck?


I haven't messed with boosters and only a little on non-Mitsu stuff. My experience is that getting the BMC volume and the calliper volume matched up makes a MUCH bigger difference than fiddling with the booster. The booster only does one thing and its function doesn't depend on the BMC or callipers. Its just a multiplier.

Going with the bigger Hilux booster would probably make a difference. It would probably make your brakes more sensitive - it would take less pressure on the pedal. Maybe a lot less - it is possible to go too far. My mom's '70 SS Nova has brakes that are so sensitive I think they're actually dangerous. frown

Knowing what I know now, I'd get my BMC and calipers matched up first. Then I'd see if the amount of pressure required on the pedal was where I wanted it. You DO NOT want a super sensitive brake on the trail. That is major suck. frown frown If you needed a little more multiplication, in your case, I'd look at the pedal since changing out the booster isn't practical.

But, I'd make sure the BMC and callipers match first. It could turn out that fixing those makes such a huge difference that everything else is fine as it is. Like mine now, I see absolutely no reason to mess with the booster or pedal where before the swap a couple months ago, I was thinking of looking for a larger booster.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Transfer case and crawl box [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079694
12/10/15 11:09 PM
12/10/15 11:09 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Christmas is coming early this year! grin

Teraflex Extreme Short Shaft SYE
Teraflex Low231 4:1 Transfer Case Kit - Short 23 Spline
Output yoke - 32 spline Spicer CV output yoke 1310

NWF Eco Box crawl box kit
Output Shaft:: 23 Spline
Input Bearing Retainer: Dual Oiling Billet Bearing Retainer
Crossmember Mounting Foot:: Universal Mount

Dakota Digital Universal Speedometer Signal Interface Controller SGI-5 C

4Crawler.com 2" body lift HD10 + EH

25' steel brake line
SAE & Metric flare nuts
Wilwood adjustable proportioning valve 260-11179
3000GT VR4 w/ABS 1 1/16" brake master cylinder

Pending:
PCS TCU & harness
Radesigns' A/T shifter
Transgo shift kit
Transfer case & crawl box shifters


Local guys here in Denver that do my M/T rebuilds are going to supply all the t-case parts and build the transfer case so I don't end up with a bunch of useless extra parts from the SYE and Low231 conversion - like I did the last go-around. They're also going to supply the internals (six gear planetary, etc.) for the crawl box.

Once I get the shift kit in, the AW4 and associated parts go to the transmission shop to have the pieces installed and the transmission freshened up. Next month. smile

In the meantime, I'm going to do the ABS delete, master cylinder swap, proportioning valve install, intake and air tube install and the Contour electric engine cooling fan assembly. I'm also going to do the electrical install - junction block, 4AWG cables, replace the OEM negative cable with 4AWG, etc. BEFORE I start installing all the accessories. grin If I get real industrious I may install the ARB on-board air while I'm at it.

Then it'll be time to install the AW4, transfer case, crawl box, SGI-5 and TCU. Actually, by then it'll probably be time to head out to Moab. laugh laugh

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: AW4 shifter [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079698
12/11/15 10:42 PM
12/11/15 10:42 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
RADesigns Products, LLC

Transgo 340-HD2 shift improver kits for AW4 and A340
Switch Kits-includes two Carling switches
A340/AW4-Winters Shifter #607-1 & Switch Kit Option
Modified Gate to a Rock Gate style


If this stuff works half as good as Rory's customer service I'll probably go into a coma. laugh laugh There aren't many places that give me reason to brag up their customer service, but dealing with Rory is great! Clear emails, speedy response and even answers his phone! laugh laugh Quite refreshing after dealing with NFW. :rolleyes:

Anyway ... got all this ordered. All that's left is the PCS TCU. The Transgo kit was a little cheaper elsewhere but I'd rather give my money to Rory. smile

Its going to be interesting putting all this together. This is going to be a much bigger project than my original M/T adapter and doubler project. smile

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transfer case and crawl box [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079704
12/14/15 08:29 AM
12/14/15 08:29 AM
Ian Sharpe  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 315
Braidwood NSW, Australia
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
Christmas is coming early this year! grin

Teraflex Extreme Short Shaft SYE
Teraflex Low231 4:1 Transfer Case Kit - Short 23 Spline
Output yoke - 32 spline Spicer CV output yoke 1310

NWF Eco Box crawl box kit
Output Shaft:: 23 Spline
Input Bearing Retainer: Dual Oiling Billet Bearing Retainer
Crossmember Mounting Foot:: Universal Mount



thats some serious reduction if you have 4.1 gears in the 231 plus the NWF box.

Mine is just over 100.1 in low low, yours will be around 50% lower again!. Why do you need such big reduction?



97 Exceed, 3.5l SOHC auto, 4.90 gears, ARB front locker,rear Harrop E-Locker, Magnum winch, dual transfer cases also 2008 NS swb Pajero, front bar & winch
Re: Transfer case and crawl box [Re: Ian Sharpe] #1079706
12/14/15 10:48 PM
12/14/15 10:48 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by Ian Sharpe
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
...Teraflex Low231 4:1 Transfer Case Kit - Short 23 Spline
...
NWF Eco Box crawl box kit


thats some serious reduction if you have 4.1 gears in the 231 plus the NWF box.

Mine is just over 100.1 in low low, yours will be around 50% lower again!. Why do you need such big reduction?


Sigh. I spoke with a fab shop on Friday. Guy I've wheeled with before. He had the same question. I have a driveability quandary and what I want is conflicting with what typically makes sense. frown

This isn't going to be a trailer queen. First problem. I have to be able to drive it to Moab from Denver which means a minimum two 11,000-12,000 ft passes. That means road gearing in the axles that will accommodate 6,000-7,000 GVW at highway speeds (45-75 MPH). With 37" tires I need to run at least 5.13s. The math says I should be running a 5.8:1 axle gear to get back to 'factory' but that's not going to happen in a Dana 44. smile

I WANT a three speed reduction. Which is problem #2. In order get that and keep weight down, I'm limited to the NP231 platform and gear ratios and the only ratios are 4:1 and 2.72:1. I primarily use 2.72 and 4:1. However, I have a lot more gear choices with a 5-speed M/T in each range than I will have with a 4-speed A/T. I can use all five gears in the M/T, but my understanding is that you shouldn't use 4th in the A/T so effectively I'm down to a 3-speed. More of my 'fine tuning' of ratios on the trail will be handled by the transfer case and reduction box than it currently is with the manual transmission so an extra range ratio will be very handy.

Problem #3 is this is going to be a HEAVY vehicle. frown I don't have any practical way to combat that. Its not just heavy, its top heavy. I'm hoping to lower CG a couple inches and widen the wheel base maybe another 1.5-2" but I expect that will get the '99 loaded back to where the '97 is unloaded. I'm good with that IF I have the option of super low snail crawl. My '97 is and this will be a lot more capable if I can control the body movement - which I can't do if gearing is so tall that I'm bouncing all over the place.

On the trail, I think anywhere between the 4.20s and 4.63s would be good, but there's no way I could get it to move on the highway in town, let alone running up a 8-12% grade at 11,000+ ft, automatic transmission or not. frown

I'm making some 'educated' trade-offs. What I'm trying to build is an 'expedition crawler'. smile smile Basically an advanced version of my '97. Something that will do trails like Pritchett Canyon, Flat Iron Mesa, etc. in Moab while being able to put on 2000+ miles of highway and county roads in a trip. So, get the axle gears down for the highway while compensating for the taller tires and A/T gears with the t-case and crawl box.


Mitsu V5MT1 M/T transmission ratios:
First Gear Ratio: 3.918
Second Gear Ratio: 2.261
Third Gear Ratio: 1.395
Fourth Gear Ratio: 1.000
Fifth Gear Ratio: 0.829

Crawl ratio 2.72 & 5.38:
1st: 57.2:1
2nd: 33:1
3rd: 20.3:1

Crawl ratio 4 & 5.38:
1st: 84:1
2nd: 48.6:1
3rd: 30:1

Crawl ratio 10.88 & 5.38:
1st: 229:1
2nd: 132.3:1
3rd: 81.4:1

(I didn't bother with 4th both to make this easier to read and because I rarely use it on the trail)


Mitsu 'AW4' A/T transmission ratios:
First Gear Ratio: 2.804
Second Gear Ratio: 1.531
Third Gear Ratio: 1.000
Fourth Gear Ratio: 0.754

Crawl ratio 2.72 & 5.13:
1st: 39:1
2nd: 21.3:1
3rd: 14:1

Crawl ratio 4 & 5.13:
1st: 57.4:1
2nd: 31.4:1
3rd: 20.5:1

Crawl ratio 10.88 & 5.13
1st: 156.3:1
2nd: 85.4:1
3rd: 55.8:1


Crawl speed '97 - '99 (in/sec @1500RPM):
2.72:1
1st: 47 - 74
2nd: 81 - 136
3rd: 132 - 208

4:1
1st: 32 - 50
2nd: 55 - 92
3rd: 90 - 141

10.88:1
1st: 11 - 18
2nd: 20 - 34
3rd: 33 - 52

(All the math above was done without calculating in torque converter slippage - just straight mechanical ratios)


I wheeled with CoSport a lot back in the day when he was running 35"s on his '98 'narrow' Sport with 4.20s in the axles and the 'AW4', and I've driven my '97 in various gearing configurations for 17 years, so here are some educated assumptions...

The commonly accepted multiplication ratio for the torque converter is - roughly - 2:1.

#1: The deeper the gearing - this is the total of axle, transfer case and crawl box - the less slippage (multiplication) you get out of the torque converter.

#2: The more GVW, the more slippage (multiplication) there will be in the torque converter.

#3: The larger the tire - both in diameter and width - the more slippage (multiplication) there will be in the torque converter.

#4: A larger diameter tire decreases the final gear ratio at the ground (effectively like installing taller - lower numerically - gears).

I'll stop here to keep this simple and leave out the 'minor', really variable variables. smile

If I do the math on the crawl ratios and crawl speeds, I'm looking at an average of about a 38% decrease in crawl ratio and a 48% increase in speed from my '97 to the new '99.

2:1 is a very rough number and not particularly precise but its what I'm working from. The lower the stall converter the lower the ratio and the lower the resistance placed against the T/C the lower the ratio. Given the reasonably tight factory T/C, the drop to 5.13s in the axles, with the increase in tire size and vehicle weight, my educated guess is that 1.5-1.6 is probably closer. So, if that's the case then calculating in the T/C should get me effective ratios that are on average reasonably close to my '97.

Of course, this is all conjecture because every time you go up or down a hill or add 100 lbs or take 100 lbs out, all the math goes straight to hell. What I'm shooting for is a flat ground, reasonably close approximation of my '97 which I'm reasonably confident this configuration should give me.

A good thing about T/Cs is a change to GVW and/or terrain changes the multiplication. When loaded out for Moab, the 'gear ratio' will be deeper - which is good. Same for steep technical climbing. Under light load and more mild, even terrain the 'ratios' will be taller - which means better fuel mileage. I hope. smile


Actually, the '99 will only be about 44% deeper than yours. I know that sounds like a lot, but I'm not sure its going to be in practice once the '99 is done.

The '99 will come in close to 6300-6400 lbs GVW in DD mode with the ProRocks, rear steel bumper/tire carrier, torque bar and 37"s, and I'm pretty sure the A/T weights more than my M/T, too. frown I typically have between 600-700 lbs of extra weight when we go out to UT or camping. Figure hauling all that weight @ 4,000-14,000 ft altitude both on and off road.

I may be way off and it may be too much gearing. I don't know for sure. I don't think so based on my '97 but I guess I'll find out. smile

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 12/14/15 10:51 PM.

'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transfer case and crawl box [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079709
12/15/15 01:03 AM
12/15/15 01:03 AM
Ian Sharpe  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 315
Braidwood NSW, Australia
Ok I see.

Just for info, oh the auto, 4th is locked out (somehow) when in 4wd lo


97 Exceed, 3.5l SOHC auto, 4.90 gears, ARB front locker,rear Harrop E-Locker, Magnum winch, dual transfer cases also 2008 NS swb Pajero, front bar & winch
Re: Transfer case and crawl box [Re: Ian Sharpe] #1079710
12/15/15 01:24 AM
12/15/15 01:24 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by Ian Sharpe
Ok I see.

Just for info, oh the auto, 4th is locked out (somehow) when in 4wd lo


Yep. Both the Gen 1 and Gen 2 if I remember correctly. I'll be using Rory's full manual Winter's shifter so in theory I could have access to all four gears in anything including T/C lock in any gear.

What I've been told is "DON'T DO THAT!" laugh 1-3, is ok. NO T/C lock on the trail.

On the highway, I'll be running the PCS TCU. Nothing Mitsu will be controlling the A/T.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transfer case and crawl box [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079718
12/16/15 08:48 PM
12/16/15 08:48 PM
Ian Sharpe  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 315
Braidwood NSW, Australia
Ed,

35 & 37 tyres are huge, are you changing the front end. Folks generally say that 33s are the limit with the Paj IFS. Oh btw got my new front shaft from Tom Woods, great no vibes very happy!!! I pulled the old one apart , the splines were worn at the slip joint, too much play that must have been the cause of the vibes.

Last edited by Ian Sharpe; 12/17/15 12:28 AM.

97 Exceed, 3.5l SOHC auto, 4.90 gears, ARB front locker,rear Harrop E-Locker, Magnum winch, dual transfer cases also 2008 NS swb Pajero, front bar & winch
Body Lift [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079720
12/17/15 02:19 AM
12/17/15 02:19 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Got the 2" body lift ordered yesterday night from 4Crawler. I have to give them points for responsiveness! Less than a 1 day turnaround to get all the info I needed.

D12+HD12+EH

It ended up being about $160 with shipping, etc. I wanted a couple extra pieces so I got the 12 instead of the 10 and the extra long hardware. I especially wanted the Grade 8 hardware since this is going to get a lot of wear and tear off road.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transfer case and crawl box [Re: Ian Sharpe] #1079721
12/17/15 02:33 AM
12/17/15 02:33 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by Ian Sharpe
Ed,

35 & 37 tyres are huge, are you changing the front end. Folks generally say that 33s are the limit with the Paj IFS. Oh btw got my new front shaft from Tom Woods, great no vibes very happy!!! I pulled the old one apart , the splines were worn at the slip joint, too much play that must have been the cause of the vibes.


I'm not planning on running IFS. My '97 already has a SAS with D44s & 35"s. Well aware of how big a 37" is. laugh laugh This build will also get a solid axle conversion, but will be running a 3-link up front and leaf springs in the rear with Dynatrac ProRock 44s front and rear.

Dynatrac ProRock 44ô

Trying to decide if I can justify this ... laugh

Dynatrac ProRock 44/60 Hybridô

I'm not up to posting the suspension stuff yet. I'm trying to get all the stuff I need to do before it goes to the shop for the SAS up. That is a LOT of stuff. smile I have an appointment with the shop the 2nd of January to go over everything and get the ball rolling. I was worried about not being able to do the 3-link but we may have that figured out. With the 2" body lift we may be able to raise the engine and transmission 1-2" to clear the upper link. Keeping my fingers crossed! laugh

Cool!! Good to hear! Yea, been there. That's how I could tell it was time to replace the slip yoke on my '97 back before the SYE. Good that fixed things, though!

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Mitsubishi AW4 transmission fill tube and dipstick [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079738
12/21/15 09:34 PM
12/21/15 09:34 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
I finally resolved the issue of no dipstick and dipstick tube for the new transmission. A guy in Houston from one of the other forums managed to track two dipsticks and dipstick tubes down for me.

This turned into a two and a half month long ordeal. Part numbers changed between '97, '98 and early '99. I originally thought it was a 'superseded by' thing, but based on his pics it looks like the tubes and dipsticks are actually different.

My suggestion? Make sure you get the dipstick and tube with the transmission. frown

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Brake master cylinders [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079739
12/22/15 12:41 AM
12/22/15 12:41 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Brake caliper reference material:

Pirate4x4 - Info: Calipers

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: AW4 shifter [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079748
12/23/15 08:17 PM
12/23/15 08:17 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Santa came early this year! laugh

The switch kit, shifter and transmission 'shift' kit all showed up. I need to contact Rory. I think the 'decals' are incorrect based on the images on his web site.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079752
12/23/15 10:17 PM
12/23/15 10:17 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
I haven't messed with boosters and only a little on non-Mitsu stuff.


I did some research last night. The booster ratio is 7:1 on all US Gen 1 Montero Sports. 2.4L, 3.0L and 3.5L - both narrow and wide, 2/4WD. I haven't checked the Gen 2 Sports or the Monteros.

I THOUGHT I had my brake issues on the '97 SAS Sport all taken care of with the BMC upgrade, but a week latter we replaced front pads and turned the rotors and now I'm back to where I started. Actually, in some cases its worse.

The BMC swap was goodness. Upgrading the bore to 1 1/16", irrespective of anything else, was necessary for the Exploder rear disks and GM D52 front disks to really work 'correctly'. smile

What I'm dealing with now is the same problem I've had for 10 years. Every time I or someone else has to replace a brake part, everything goes straight to hell and I end up replacing everything or close to it to get it all to work correctly again. The rear Explorer setup has been pretty bullet proof but the front GM setup has been a real PITA.

After doing a lot of research I figured out that there are a lot more different D52 parts than I was ever aware of. All of the pieces fit together but that doesn't mean everything will work correctly when you're done. So far, I've found three different piston bore diameters on calipers and almost half a dozen rotor thicknesses. Everything being 're-manufactured' now in China doesn't help at all, either, since no one there seems to know how to use a ruler.

This is a real PITA since this is the brake configuration I plan to use on this '99 build. mad With the gearing I'll be running and 37"s, I need brakes that work correctly and well.

Anyway, I spent some quality time with Bill's 'Brake Bible' and his Xcel spread sheet trying to figure out if there was some inherent flaw in my brake design. (the download link for the spreadsheet is about half way down the 'Brake Bible' page)

Pirate4x4 - The Brake Bible

As for an 'inherent flaw', the answer I came up with was no. I kinda figured that since I'm not the first one to run this setup and for the first 3-4 years after the SAS I had NO issues at all. Only after I had to replace pads, a frozen caliper and a master cylinder did 'issues' start cropping up.

My educated guess at this point is that I have 'mismatched' calipers and rotors. I think the rotors may be too thin for these calipers for everything to work correctly and we made it worse by turning them again last week. I'm not sure what the piston diameter on the calipers is or even if they're the same side to side. I specifically told the shop to replace both when it was in a couple years ago but they just replaced one. Both calipers are re-manufactured and are from different stores and are different brands, so ....

After plugging in a lot of numbers to Bill's spreadsheet, I should have more than enough pressure for everything to work even with the monster gearing and 37"s. Yea, well, I already knew that. When they're working correctly they're fantastic. Besides, his numbers are almost exactly the same as we got back when we pressure tested the brake system two weeks ago when the BMC was done. But, it was good to see some independent feedback. smile

I'm making the assumption that I'm running the 2.94" front D52 calipers now. Based on a lot of research, a lot of math, Bill's calculator, and a few educated assumptions, I THINK the front caliper volume is still a little out of whack - barely. It doesn't quite match up with the 1 1/16" BMC. From what I've read, the 1 1/8" would be the 'correct' BMC for the 1.88" rears and 2.94" fronts.

So, back into the shop on Tuesday. New rotors, new calipers, new front brake lines. Currently installed Hawk HPS pads. I found all the specs and matched up two sets of calipers to the Powerslot/Stoptech brand rotors I currently use.

  • Rotors - StopTech Cryo Brake Rotors 127-68000CL, 127-68000CR (drilled/slotted, 1.25")
  • Calipers - Wilwood GM D52 Dual Piston Caliper Kits, for 1.25" rotor 140-11290-R
    Southwest Speed - NEW D52 Brake Caliper & Pad Set with Pins, for 1.28" rotor 203-6241
  • Lines - Wilwood Brake Flexline Kits 220-11718 (20")


I've been wanting to try the frozen rotors, so this is just coincidental 'good' timing.

I can't find new calipers anymore and I refuse to buy re-man anymore, so I am pretty much stuck with after-market. frown Piston diameter is 2"x2 for the Wilwood and 2.81"x1 for the Southwest Speed calipers. OEM is 2.94"x1 - which is what my existing calipers are supposed to be.

I'm 99.9% sure the Southwest Speed calipers would be perfect. I'm not as sure with the Wilwood calipers. I'm not yet quite comfortable trusting just the math. smile Besides price, the downside to the Wilwoods are no dust boot which is not such a great thing for an off road vehicle. Otherwise, both are direct D52 bolt-ins.

Anyway, I have both sets of calipers ordered, new font lines and new front rotors. Tuesday we'll replace everything with the Stoptechs and the Wilwood rotors. If the Wilwoods work, I'll keep those on the '97 since that's almost entirely a DD now. The Southwest Speed calipers will go on this build with another set of Stoptech rotors. Otherwise, I'll pull the Wilwoods, return 'em and try the Southwest calipers. I'm going to stick with the HPS pads through this until I'm confident everything is good.

Provided all goes well, I have new cryo rotors for the rear and Wilwood D52 'E' pads and 667 pads for the rear almost ready to go. Figured if I was switching to cryo rotors, I might as well try to get something out of it and try the 'E' pads.

  • Pads - Wilwood PolyMatrix E Compound Brake Pads 15E-6102K (D52)
  • Pads - Wilwood ProMatrix Brake Pads 150-D0667K (Ford)
  • Rotors - StopTech Cryo Brake Rotors 127-65052CL, 127-65052CR (drilled/slotted) (Ford)


Baby steps first. smile I know how the Hawk HPS pads work, so change rotors and calipers first, see what happens and then go from there. smile

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079756
12/24/15 09:06 PM
12/24/15 09:06 PM
TOASTY  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,126
Mesa AZ, US. *****
Do you already have your new front axle for the new build? Have you considered Toyota outers at all? You can run them on a D44 center if you like, then you get 4 piston calipers and 45 degree steering with RCV's.

After you posted all this stuff i started wondering why my setup just worked considering i just randomly put mine together. The Mighty Max has a 15/16" bore BMC, I have the 4 Runner brake upgrade AND Montero rear discs. So i am running twice the calipers and three times the amount of pistons this BMC was designed for BUT as it turns out it's nearly exactly the same setup as the 4 Runner has stock. So i just got lucky that all my mismatched parts just happened to be correct for my application.

I don't suppose you know about the Dodge 1500 BMC crossover? On PA_JERO's rig we are going to run a late 90's early 00's BMC off of the 1500 to power his Wagoneer brakes. He's running Wagoneer front calipers and Montero Sport rears, I imagine we won't be as lucky with this one and will probably go through a series of trials to get it working correctly.
The Dodge BMC is huge and just happens to bolt up to a Mitsu power booster, and Napa has adapter fittings for standard to metric brake lines. I can't remember the bore size for the dodge but we did physically bolt one up to a Montero in the junkyard, there are a few different types though so we had to try a few different Dodges before we found the correct one.


1999 Montero Blizzard package

2005 Montero Limited

2015 Mirage with antifreeze Sparco wheel package
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079757
12/24/15 10:26 PM
12/24/15 10:26 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
I haven't messed with boosters and only a little on non-Mitsu stuff.


I did some research last night. The booster ratio is 7:1 on all US Gen 1 Montero Sports. 2.4L, 3.0L and 3.5L - both narrow and wide, 2/4WD. I haven't checked the Gen 2 Sports or the Monteros.


In the FSMs I've found boosting ratios of 5, 6 and 6.5, besides the 7 I found for the Gen 1 Sports. I think I saw 4 somewhere, too. I THINK the Montero is 7:1, and I don't think any of the other ratios are available in the US.

I checked the pedal ratio for the Montero Sport. The Gen 1 Sport (all) is almost exactly 4:1. Something like 3.98...something:1. smile

Bill's brake calculator is cool! First time I've played with it myself. Once you track down all the information, its really interesting to see how a change propagates through the system.

Following is a link to a PDF 'snapshot' of Bill's calculator with all the data plugged in for my SAS'd '97 with the Wilwood calipers, 'E' & 667 pads, and Stoptech cryo rotors...

BillaVista Brake Calculator - 1997 SAS Montero Sport GM D52 & Explorer Disks (PDF)

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: TOASTY] #1079758
12/24/15 11:35 PM
12/24/15 11:35 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by TOASTY
Do you already have your new front axle for the new build? Have you considered Toyota outers at all? You can run them on a D44 center if you like, then you get 4 piston calipers and 45 degree steering with RCV's.


Nope. I won't be dealing with axles until after April. I've got shelves of parts ready to go in before I get to the SAS. laugh laugh

Actually, I started talking to the tech at the dealership about this. He's building a 4-Runner now to replace his truggy and that kinda got us started on the subject. Previously, I hadn't but now its something I think I'll look into. I have a meeting with the shop on the 2nd to discuss the SAS. I need to do more research on this as it may be an option.

I started looking at the ProRock 44 with the 60 outers the other day, but I think that's just overkill. laugh I'm not sure that the Toy outers wouldn't also be overkill. smile Anyway, I'm still going to look into it this weekend.

Quote
After you posted all this stuff i started wondering why my setup just worked considering i just randomly put mine together. The Mighty Max has a 15/16" bore BMC, I have the 4 Runner brake upgrade AND Montero rear discs. So i am running twice the calipers and three times the amount of pistons this BMC was designed for BUT as it turns out it's nearly exactly the same setup as the 4 Runner has stock. So i just got lucky that all my mismatched parts just happened to be correct for my application.


Sometimes that happens. Usually, I'm not that lucky. grin I haven't looked at what the Sport had stock so don't know how far off I am now from OEM. But, like I said, I think my issues stem more from part problems.

Quote
I don't suppose you know about the Dodge 1500 BMC crossover? On PA_JERO's rig we are going to run a late 90's early 00's BMC off of the 1500 to power his Wagoneer brakes. He's running Wagoneer front calipers and Montero Sport rears, I imagine we won't be as lucky with this one and will probably go through a series of trials to get it working correctly.
The Dodge BMC is huge and just happens to bolt up to a Mitsu power booster, and Napa has adapter fittings for standard to metric brake lines. I can't remember the bore size for the dodge but we did physically bolt one up to a Montero in the junkyard, there are a few different types though so we had to try a few different Dodges before we found the correct one.


The Wagoneer brakes are D52s, and I think either the 1/2 ton 2.94" piston or the 3/4 ton 3.375" piston. Sport big rears or small rears?

Nope, I didn't know any of the Dodge BMCs would bolt up although I'm not surprised. I'm starting to figure out that the Mitsu style isn't as unique as I thought it was. Make/model/engine did it come off of?

Uh, how huge is 'huge'? There is a careful balancing act between volume and pressure. BMC has to move enough volume to move the caliper pistons, but still has to make enough pressure to generate the clamping force to stop the vehicle.

I ran some appropriate changes through Bill's calculator. Which Wagoneer calipers? The 1/2 ton 2.94" or the 3/4 ton 3.375"? 'Cause that makes a big difference.

Take a look at the PDF in my last post. All I did was change the front piston diameter to 3.375" and the math worked out to needing a 1 5/16" - just like '3.375 = 79 Chevy 1 ton (Dana 60) ................................. Brake Cylinder Bore Size:1 1/4" or 1 5/16"' in "Info - Calipers".

Then I JUST changed to the D52 2.94" caliper and I went from needing 1,035 PSI to 1,318 PSI.

Front
Required Brake Torque (front) (in. lbs) 43,596
Calculate Brake Torque (front) (in. lbs.) 34,243

Rear
Required Brake Torque (rear) (in. lbs) 10,404
Calculate Brake Torque (rear) (in. lbs.) 12,302

As you can see, there's not even remotely close to enough brake torque. It ended up short almost 25%. Now here are the numbers with a 1 1/8" BMC ...

Front
Required Brake Torque (front) (in. lbs) 43,596
Calculate Brake Torque (front) (in. lbs.) 46,616

Rear
Required Brake Torque (rear) (in. lbs) 10,404
Calculate Brake Torque (rear) (in. lbs.) 16,747

1 1/16" probably wouldn't have enough volume for the calipers and larger than 1 1/8" won't produce enough pressure. Annnndddd ... '2.934 = 79 Chevy 1/2ton ............................................... Brake Cylinder Bore Size:1 1/8"' Surprise, surprise. laugh laugh

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: TOASTY] #1079762
12/27/15 04:13 AM
12/27/15 04:13 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by TOASTY
... Have you considered Toyota outers at all? You can run them on a D44 center if you like, then you get 4 piston calipers and 45 degree steering with RCV's.


Ok. What I was thinking about was a D44 with heavy duty inners and Reid Chevy outers and RCV axles. After a lot of research last night I figured out that ain't happening. There is way too much crap involved with RCV and D44 Chevy outers. Which sucks 'cause that appears to be a real solid setup.

The solution to this problem is to go with Ford outers, hubs, brakes, etc. Except EVERYTHING I already have is GM and I don't want two vehicles with completely different stuff. While I don't like the old D52 OEM materials quality, the design is good and there's a ton of after-market support for that stuff.

As for Toy outers, by the time I spend enough to do that with RCVs I could do the D60 outer conversion and still have my GM D52 and 6x5.5 setup. The D60 outer conversion is stronger than the Toy setup and still gives about the same 45 degrees. For whatever that's worth - you're not going to do 45 degrees on anything less than full width axles and no fenders. smile

The idea is good, but technology has long since passed that design by. smile


Quote
... I don't suppose you know about the Dodge 1500 BMC crossover? On PA_JERO's rig we are going to run a late 90's early 00's BMC off of the 1500 to power his Wagoneer brakes. He's running Wagoneer front calipers and Montero Sport rears, I imagine we won't be as lucky with this one and will probably go through a series of trials to get it working correctly.


Spent most of today going through brake stuff including this. frown frown

Mitsubishi 3000GT non-turbo 1" brake master cylinder 1.00 40.00 M10x1 IF M10x1 IF
Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 w/ABS 1 1/16" brake master cylinder 1.06 40.00 M10x1 IF M10x1 IF

Dodge RAM 1500 1 1/4" brake master cylinder '98-'0? RAYBESTOS MC390426 1.25 M12x1 IF M10x1 IF
Dodge RAM 1500 1 1/8" brake master cylinder '95-'96 RAYBESTOS MC390259 1.13 40.00 9/16x18 IF 1/2x20 IF
Dodge RAM 1500 1 1/4" brake master cylinder '97 RAYBESTOS MC390257 1.25 9/16x18 IF 1/2x20 IF

The Mitsu booster has a 40mm x 14mm ID bore. Measured that today. All three of the RAM BMCs above have a 40mm OD bore as far as I can tell. The 1 1/8" for sure does - referenced in everyone's docs. I presume the 1 1/4" BMCs do also - at least they look like they do.

The sucky part - as you pointed out - is the SAE fittings. But, companies make adapters, so .... laugh Note, the first RAM BMC is metric. Unfortunately, both ports are not M10s.

None of the RAM ones have fluid level sensors?

After sorting through calipers and BMCs all day long, I think I have the setup figured out for this build. Late '70s metric Chevy 3/4 ton 3.15" front calipers, late '90s Explorer 1.88 rear calipers with the 1 1/4" BMC. The alternative is a 2.94" front caliper with the 1 1/8" BMC but I don't particularly like the numbers, especially for the rear.

Front 3.15"

Required Brake Torque (front) (in. lbs) 52,193
Calculate Brake Torque (front) (in. lbs.) 51,900

Rear 1.88"

Required Brake Torque (rear) (in. lbs) 5,505
Calculate Brake Torque (rear) (in. lbs.) 16,284

Hydraulic pressure: 1370 PSI.


The Wagoneer uses the D52 brake calipers and rotors. Same setup I have on the '97. I think at some point the Wagoneer goes to metric D52 calipers so you might want to check that out.

What ratio brake booster are you going to use?

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079763
12/27/15 10:13 PM
12/27/15 10:13 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Quote
Dodge RAM 1500 1 1/8" brake master cylinder '95-'96 RAYBESTOS MC390259 1.13 40.00 9/16x18 IF 1/2x20 IF
...

The Mitsu booster has a 40mm x 14mm ID bore. Measured that today....


I may have misinterpreted the 1 1/8" BMC spec. Some mention of this being a dual bore diameter of 1 1/8 & 40mm. 40mm is like 1.57". Obviously there's no way this would bolt up if that's the case.

The 2 bolt flange design and pattern is some kind of fairly new standard for interchangeably.

Maybe some options...
Powerbrakeservice.net

Some corrections ...

Chevy K20/K30 Truck '77-'86 Metric 3/4 ton calipers
RAYBESTOS FRC4156, FRC4155 D370

These are not D52 pad format, but D370 which is slightly different. Rotor thickness specs for these calipers is the same as my D52s - 1.29" max & 1.21" min. The rotor diameter is 12.5" instead of the smaller D52 11.87".


I'm going to contact Dynatrack and see how they work their D44/D60 conversion. The D370 is normally a Dana60 caliper along with the D149 (3.38") format. What I want is the D44 6-5.5 pattern but with the D370 (3.15") calipers. Match that up with the RAYBESTOS MC390426 1 1/4" BMC if it'll bolt in. Definitely need a proportioning valve to cut down on the pressure to the back. Looks like it'll be about 2x what it should be.

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 12/27/15 11:56 PM. Reason: Corrections and additional information

'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079785
01/01/16 10:39 PM
01/01/16 10:39 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
Some corrections ...

Chevy K20/K30 Truck '77-'86 Metric 3/4 ton calipers
RAYBESTOS FRC4156, FRC4155 D370

These are not D52 pad format, but D370 which is slightly different. Rotor thickness specs for these calipers is the same as my D52s - 1.29" max & 1.21" min. The rotor diameter is 12.5" instead of the smaller D52 11.87".


Ok. One more time ... frown

1979-1986 Chevy K20 Suburban V8 5.7L, '82-'86 6.2L, 8,400 Lbs GVW, RPO JB7 13" rear drum

WAGNER CR98954, CR98955 GM "D52" HD - D153(metric) piston bore 3.15"
Wagner QuickStop ZX153, Friction Thickness of 0.662" (Inner Pad) and 0.572" (Outer Pad)
Centric 121-68004 Rotor (8-lug) 12.5"

Same format as a D52, but different pads. This is the 3/4-1 ton larger caliper and use the D153 pad format. Same dimensions as a D52 but thicker. They are not interchangeable.

BillaVista - 14-Bolt Disc Brakes V2

Quote
I'm going to contact Dynatrack and see how they work their D44/D60 conversion. The D370 is normally a Dana60 caliper along with the D149 (3.38") format.


Not D370. D153. Apparently also found on the 3/4 ton D44 axle.I couldn't get in touch with the correct person at Dynatrac so I'm still waffling between the 44 outers or the 60 outers. If I stick with the 44 outers, I'll use the 3.15" calipers with the 1 1/4" BMC.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Update 5/3/2016 [Re: ES_97Sport] #1080520
05/03/16 11:27 PM
05/03/16 11:27 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Spring Moab trip is out of the way so now its time to get back to this. smile

I figured out all the brake stuff both on my existing '97 SAS Sport as well as for this build. So, irrespective of my caliper choice for the new axle I have potential master cylinders and I know which one I'll need for what calipers. The Wilwood 'E' pads have been working great - noisy as hell but they work really well, especially off road.

I'm still sticking with the ProRocks for axles. I still need to talk to Dynatrac and figure out what the front one will look like. Unless there's some horked up geometry issue with the steering it looks like it might be a good idea to go with the new JK axles and JK brakes. Its a LOT easier to get JK brake and hub parts than D52 parts from the '70s.

On to the next thing to figure out. The change to the '1-ton' steering on the black '97 Sport has been great. Over a year now and the joints are still good. Unfortunately the steering box isn't doing so hot. frown For some reason I can't figure out I've gone through three steering boxes in four years. I had a new one slapped on the big Sport three months ago and its already loosening up. Which I know by now is just the beginning of the end. Another issue I never had with the original steering box. frown Sigh.

So its time to work out a replacement. I was looking at going with the upgraded '70s Saginaw Bronco ported for hydraulic assist - and FINALLY doing hydraulic assist. I stopped by the shop this morning and they were in the process of replacing the steering and box on one of their race trucks. PSC is selling both a ported and un-ported version of the new 'Grand Cherokee' box which apparently is an almost direct bolt in for the Ford Saginaw. It looks like a modernized version of the late '90s Mitsu box. smile

I need to talk to PSC about the pump, box and whatever, do a little research and then have everything installed. I still have a lot of little details to work out on this but the plan is to have it installed on the '97 by July and ready for Moab in Aug. If everything goes well I'll move onto the suspension.

I keep waffling on the front suspension and whether of not to do the 3-link or go with an extended radius arm setup. If I KNEW the 3-link wasn't going to turn into a architectural nightmare, I'd just do it, but ....

BUT, one of the fab guys gave me a good idea. To avoid the track bar/oil pan clearance issue, the plan is to do the 2" body lift and then raise the engine and transmission 1". I'm not keen on that from a CG standpoint but if I can cut 2-3" off the frame height, move the body up 2" and the engine up 1", at worst it'll all wash and at best I'll end up with a CG that's maybe (at least) 1" lower than the '97 while still running 37"s. And, while I'll have 22-23" of ground clearance to the frame (down from 25"), the transmission & transfer cases will sit 1" higher in the frame which will give them a little more protection.

The last couple trips to UT have been a kind of a PITA. The Easter Jeep guys fix the trails up and by the time we get there they've been flooded out. frown A lot of the trails have a lot more off camber/washout crud than they used to 10-13 years ago and a lot of the old mining, etc. trails scattered over southern UT are just getting old and degrading. frown So, moved to the top of my list is widening the track another 1.5-2" over my '97. That combined with the (hopefully) lower CG will make a huge difference in stability if the current abilities of my '97 are any indicator. The trick will be to do this without having to do body work. grin

Anyway, the project isn't dead. Its just not moving as fast as I wish it was. grin grin

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
17" Rims [Re: ES_97Sport] #1101355
05/25/16 09:12 PM
05/25/16 09:12 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Just a little early in the build, but .... smile

I've been thinking about switching from my 15x8 Stockton Series 22 rims to 17x9 rims on my black SAS'd '97 for the last year. I finally decided to move forward on that during our last trip to Moab. I'm using the '97 as a guinea pig for working out stuff before I get into this build. If they work out well, I'll use the same on this build.

Stockton Wheel Service - Heavy Duty - Military - Light Truck - Off Road

After a lot of surfing I decided to go with Stockton rims again. Mostly because I can't find anyone that will build custom rims that are useable on the highway and because I'm already familiar with Stockton's product quality.

I decided to go with the Series 24 rims (with 8 holes instead of the usual six). I could have gone with the Series 22 but I wanted something different. smile

I also decided to install 'rock rings' - which are just stiffeners that fit around the rim lip to help prevent taco'ing the rim lip/bead area. Which I managed to do three months after I bought my first set of Stockton rims. mad Anyway, even on 15x8s I still beat the crap out of the rim lip and bead area. That's not going to improve by going to a 17x9 with 2" less sidewall and less pinch. frown

In order for the rings to go on without interfering with the valve stems, Stockton is relocating the valve stems to about 1/2 way between the outer face of the center section and the first curve in the rim. With the rings in place it'll be almost impossible to scrub a valve stem off on a rock. Also something I'm looking forward to not having happen again.

After spending a couple nights looking for ready-to-weld-on rock rings I gave up in disgust and decided make a set myself. 90% of everything I could find alternated between tacky and useless. The 10% left just didn't really appeal to me and everything was in 1/4" - I want 3/16".

Back to Solid Edge 2D. smile It didn't take long to mock something up. I don't have the outer rim dimensions so this was just an excercise to come up with a design and see kinda what it would look like. The following are what I ended up with ...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I did the yellow before I knew they'd be able to relocate the valve stems so the divot isn't necessary. I also - duh - forgot that laser cutters STILL need some metal for wastage so you can't do the diagram like you would draw on paper. :rolleyes: So, the red rings have the logos correctly laid out. smile

Everything is to scale - 2.25" ring on a 17" rim and I tried to make the rim look as close to the Series 24 as I could with my limited abilities. smile

Not too bad. Except I just realized that I'll NEVER be able to sell these to anyone without a Mitsu if it turns out I don't like them. cry laugh

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Electrical Accessory Wiring [Re: ES_97Sport] #1102059
09/13/16 12:09 AM
09/13/16 12:09 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
I'm working on the under-hood wiring diagram for all the accessories. Lockers, lights, fans, etc.

I want to install 'corner lights' - two LED packs, one in each 'wing' on the ARB bull bar. This has been an issue forever on my big '97. I love the OEM glass headlight housings but light distribution to the front corner sides is horrid. I had this problem fixed off-road back in the day with the IPF floods mounted on the forward edge of the roof rack, but I'm not installing a roof rack. Too much of a liability where I wheel. The problem isn't just off road. Driving and turning through poorly lit intersections is kind of nerve wracking in my big Sport. There just isn't enough light on the corners when making a right hand turn.

I've been noodling this around in my head and I can't make a decision. I have two options as I see it ...

1) True cornering lights - when I turn on the right hand turn signal, the right hand corner light turns on solid and stays on until the turn signal is turned off. Same thing for the left hand turn signal.

2) Manual on/off - wire both sides into a dash switch so I can turn them on/off as needed. Great for off road. I dislike anything that requires manual management and decreases my attention on the road while driving on the street though.

All opinions/thoughts are welcome. KIM this vehicle will see a LOT of road driving in unfamiliar territory - neither the big Sport nor this one are strictly off road vehicle. smile

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Electrical Accessory Wiring [Re: ES_97Sport] #1102321
10/22/16 01:10 AM
10/22/16 01:10 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Updates:

The running boards are off and the rocker panels are Rhino Lined ...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Just finished the 2" body lift from 4Crawler ...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I spent the last month and a half working on the electrical accessory system. I'm building an entire harness and fuse panel for the cornering lights, b/u and rear corner lights, rock lights, ARB air lockers, compressor, etc. and an accessory switch panel that will fit where the OEM single CD player normally sits in the console forward of the shifter. Everything I add will tie into this rather than run everything separately.

1/0AWG for the XD9000 winch, 1/0AWG for the alternator to battery and replacement for the OEM negative battery cable, and 1/0AWG for the new fuse panel to the battery.

And, the 175A alternator from QualityPower was installed this week as well. smile

I'll post up all details when I have more time.

The next steps are: rip out the OEM intake and ABS, install the new air intake, do all the wiring and rebuild the brake system sans the ABS system. THEN the fun begins - the transmission swap, crawl box and NP231 install. Oh, boy. smile

Then its off to the shop to get the All-Pro rock skids, ARB bull bar and winch installed. Custom rear bumper and tire carrier after that, and then it'll be time to torch the bottom off and do the SAS. smile

Hoping to have this project completed and tested before our April trip to Moab. crazy smile

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
17" Rims and Rock Rings [Re: ES_97Sport] #1102374
11/02/16 12:29 AM
11/02/16 12:29 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
17" rims

For lack of a better choice, I'm going to stick with the Stockton Series 22 rims. They're good, solid rims, but mostly because I can get them custom built pretty much however I want them.

Stockton Wheel Service - Series 22

I also finished up the rock ring design and sent it off to the shop that does all my laser cutting.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I'm sticking with the same dimensions I was thinking about in my previous post (top of this post). I did widen the rings and change the design, but otherwise 17x9", rings and relocate the valve stem with Geolandar 37"s.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Body Lift [Re: ES_97Sport] #1102375
11/02/16 12:36 AM
11/02/16 12:36 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Whoohoo! Body lift is finished. smile

I had dropped the '99 off at the dealership Tuesday to take care of a couple misc things before I started tearing into it. The tech that does all my work agreed to do the 2" body lift on his own time when he could. I figured it'd take a couple weeks but he stayed after work last night and got the whole body lift done in one evening. WHOOHOO!! There is some major benefit to having someone who makes a living working on Mitsus doing the work. smile

For thems who might be reading this, redraif's information was spot on. (see the link below) I got my complete body lift from 4Crawler and it went in without a hitch.

01 Montero Sport 4wd. Body lift & suspension lift info...

Here are some notes from the lift ...

The ABS wheel sensor wires at the wheels had to be detached at the last mount point at the wheels. The wires were too short otherwise, but are the perfect length now.

There were a few places where the wiring harness goes for the frame to the body where the harness at the last attaching point on the frame had to be disconnected. It really was 'a few'. Like three or four. smile I think he said three. smile

The front brake HARD LINES - as redraif pointed out - needed to be tweaked a little. There was way more than enough coiled up for the little that was needed. It took more time to readjust the hard line to sit in the middle of the grommet where it goes through the fender wells. smile

There are two steel 'bumpers' that mount to the radiator support behind the OEM fascia that must be removed. When the fascia goes up with the body lift the fascia is tweaked up against the 'bumpers'. These are basically a 'stop' behind the fascia that prevents the fascia from being pushed into underlying pieces and parts. If you have an ARB bull bar, there's nothing to do here as these would long since have gone away.

The fuel filler hose that redraif used - the same that I supplied the tech - is the same diameter on both ends. The OEM Mitsu filler hose is not. Stupid. frown One end fits fine but the other end is a little over sized and requires that it be clamped down pretty good to get it to seal. The tech is concerned that this may lead to a evap leak. Time will tell. There are a couple ways to fix this that we came up with, but we're going to take a 'wait and see' approach here.

Ah, yes, and then there's the negative battery cable .... redraif and I have been over this several times. Her negative cable required a slight adjustment but was otherwise reusable. Mine was not. The length from the frame to engine block was too short - apparently it ended up like a guitar string, so it was in no way, shape or form usable. Before anyone asks - yes, it was the OEM cable with the OEM part number still attached, so its not an aftermarket piece. I purchased a new OEM neg cable a week and a half ago using the '99 VIN - I think - to get the length and bolt sizes as well as a spare for my stock Sports. I tossed it in the '99 in case the tech needed it - everyone pretty much knows how the neg cable looks after 170K+ miles, so .... smile When the cable length thing came up, the tech just assumed I'd included the appropriate - LONGER - cable 'cause I knew he'd need it. Sure, right, except I'd done no such thing. Apparently the cable I supplied him with is about 2-3" longer between the frame mount and the engine block mount - coincidentally, the EXACT length needed for a 2" body lift.

I have absolutely NO idea what is going on here. The Mitsu part number is different for the two parts - off by the trailing digit. They appear visually identical and are functionally identical. I was under the impression that the neg cable was the same for all the US v6 Sports, but that appears to not be the case. The tech said, other than than needing the extra length, it was just a direct bolt in.

The tech saved the old cable with its P/N and the P/N of the new cable so I'll look into this more this weekend. I guess maybe the good thing out of this is we have a OEM P/N for the negative battery cable that is a drop in part to go along with the 2" body lift. Maybe. laugh

No changes were necessary to the steering - also pointed out by redraif. smile

According to the tech, the only 'bad' part about the entire body lift was the fact that half the interior has to come out. laugh He was otherwise impressed with how relatively easy and simple the entire process was.

Anyway, he's already driven it and all appeared well. I'll get it back tomorrow afternoon. This should be interesting. I did walk out to the back lot and took a long and got a pick. I think this thread should be renamed, "How to make your brand new 31" tires look like roller-skate wheels!" (rofl)

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Body Lift [Re: ES_97Sport] #1102384
11/02/16 10:29 PM
11/02/16 10:29 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Before and after pics of the body lift. The running boards were pulled off and the rocker panels Rhino Lined a couple weeks ago, too.

Before ...
[Linked Image]

After ...
[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Electrical Accessory Wiring [Re: ES_97Sport] #1102385
11/03/16 12:17 AM
11/03/16 12:17 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
For the most part I'm done with all the electrical accessory design and I'm ready to start building the enclosure, harnesses and installing the base pieces.

I have the 175A alternator installed. I settled on 1/0 AWG from the Blue Sea 150 fuse/buss panel that will be mounted where the existing OEM air box is to the battery, 1/0 AWG to replace the OEM negative battery cable, 1/0 AWG for the positive run from the alternator to the battery and 1/0 for the winch to the battery. 1/0 for fuse/buss panel is overkill right now, but its easier to do the heavy cable up front while the entire front is tore off rather than have to tear into it after everything is built. I'm going to install 500A bulk head pass-throughs in the radiator support for the winch - run two short runs from the battery to the radiator support, and two short runs from the winch to the support. The way I wire the winch, this allows me to easily disconnect the winch without disturbing any of the wiring if the bumper has to come off. My black '97 has two long runs and its a PITA. It was worth $40 for bulkhead pass-throughs and four 3/8" lugs to not have to deal with this again.

For lack of a better place to put a bunch of switches for the lighting, compressor and air lockers, I'm pulling the single CD player located in the console and installing a custom built enclosure. Its an enclosure rather than a 'panel' because it will also hold the three relays necessary for the front cornering lights and the delayed-off enclosure illumination and exterior lighting feature. The enclosure is connectorized just like the OEM CD player so it will be easily removable if I need to tech to do something under the dash.

The enclosure illumination (the switch lettering) will stay lit for 15 minutes after the ignition is turned off. The compressor and locker solenoids are powered continuously so the lockers will stay engaged even with the vehicle turned off and the key removed. I wanted the exterior lighting only powered with the ignition on or in acc - so normal OEM behavior - but I wanted the exterior lighting to stay on (if it was already on) after the vehicle was turned off for the same 15 minutes as the enclosure illumination and then automatically turn off. InPOWER supplies a nifty delayed-off relay that makes this all possible in a simple, single tiny package.

The really annoying fly in this setup is having the front and rear locker switches in the console out of easy reach. Fine for a mall-crawler, but otherwise not so good. frown I've lived for almost 15 years with the front/rear lockers in my big Sport wired together so that one switch turns both on or off and its rare that this is an issue. Mostly I wanted to be able to turn the front and rear on/off independently of each other in the this build BEFORE I hit an obstacle - not during. If I could get that functionality I'd be happy. The '99 has the OEM R/D locker so it has the switch in the left side of the dash which will be removed since I'm installing ARB air lockers. I reworked the wiring a little and found a company that will 'print' custom Carling rocker switch covers so this switch will replace the OEM locker switch and will effectively be a master on/off switch for the differentials. I can set whatever configuration at the console, and control on/off form the master switch next to the steering wheel.

The toggle switches are Carling illuminated tip - white off and red on - and the Carling rocker also has off and on illumination. I think I'll either paint or powder coat the enclosure using the black 'wrinkle' paint - I haven't looked that far ahead yet. smile If I end up having to make a custom enclosure for the shifter, I'll make them match. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. laugh

I ran out of space on the face of the enclosure so I had to cut out one switch. I integrated the backup lights and rear corner lights into on switch figuring that if I needed one or the other, I probably needed both.

I'm looking forward to having the front corner/cornering lights and if they work as well as I expect, I'm going to integrate this design into my big '97. The design has two 'modes'. The front lights can be used as 'corner' lights were both LT/RT can be turned on/off from a switch in the console enclosure - handy off road - OR they can function like 'cornering' lights found in higher end sports luxury vehicles where the corresponding LT or RT corner light is turned on when the turn signal is activated.

This has nothing to do with any overall real benefit in functionality, its just my personal preference - if the corner lights are turned on via the console switch, when the turn signal is activated, both corner lights turn off and the corresponding LT or RT corner light activates. I have no idea why I'd have the corner lights turned on on the street, but I didn't want the opposing light on making a turn - especially a right hand turn. Like I said, just personal preference. smile

There's several ways to make the cornering light thing work, but again I'm two relays from InPOWER - in this case 5 second 'one shot' relays - to make the corner lights stay steady rather than flash like the turn signals. I also added a small mini solid state relay to cut power to the InPOWER relays when the vehicle is turned off. Its only a few milliamps of draw per relay but there's no reason to power them when the vehicle is sitting off in the driveway for three months. smile Half a dozen 3A rectifier diodes finish up the logic to make the corner/cornering lights work. smile

I'm going to use the new ARB air compressor in this build as well. I'm pretty happy with it to the point - even if the price is outrageous. frown I haven't used it to air up tires yet, but I want to keep that as my emergency backup method so I'm using 8 AWG for the run from the compressor to the fuse/buss panel with a 75A relay. The Blue Sea panel uses AMI/MIDI and ATO/ATC fuses so the compressor will tie in though a 40A fuse in the panel.

I'm testing a new headlight harness from CE Auto Electric Supply on my big Sport. If that works out well, I'll get another one for this build and tie it back into the same Blue Sea panel with a 30A AMI/MIDI fuse.

The sucky part is I'm still trying to work out how to attach all this to the battery. frown Monster stopped making the battery terminals I use on the big Sport. I need two 175A, one 500A and one 60A fuses at the battery for the alternator, fuse/buss panel, winch and electric cooling fans and there's precious little space around the battery. frown

This is what I'm waiting for: MRBF Surface Mount Fuse Block - Common Source, but I'll probably end up using these Dual MRBF Terminal Fuse Block - 30 to 300A directly off the battery terminal. I found one that looks like it might work but it will require a little modification - like replacing the three 5/16" that they come with with 3/8" screws.

Bassik Positive Battery Terminal

While I am still underwhelmed by the components that Derale supplies with their cooling fan controller, I'm pleased with the controller itself so I'm going to stick with that for the time being. It works well controlling the dual Ford Contour fans using the in-hose sensor. The Contour fan motor plugs are now available even on Amazon and its simple enough to wire up a custom harness so there's not much point in crawling through the salvage yards for wiring anymore. smile I think I paid $12 for two brand new plugs with pig-tails - less than the cost of gas to the nearest yard. smile

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I have all the parts and pieces - I think - to start working on this piece this weekend. I'm only going to wire up the engine bay, winch to the radiator support, and the harness into the cab to the enclosure and the master locker switch harness for now. Once the bumpers are on with the corner lights and the SAS is done, I'll finish the exterior wiring.

Next on the list after all the electrical will be installing the ARB bull bar - which is taking up like 1/4 of my driveway right now frown - and the XD9000 Warn and the All-Pro rock skids. Then its off to the shop for a custom rear bumper and tire carrier. Then the SAS. A lot left to do before this thing will be done. smile

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Electrical Accessory Wiring [Re: ES_97Sport] #1102388
11/03/16 10:51 PM
11/03/16 10:51 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Updated wiring diagram. Forgot the under hood lights and added documentation.

[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1103970
11/06/17 08:59 PM
11/06/17 08:59 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Long time between updates but the project is still moving forward.

Brake master cylinder -

Raybestos MC390426 1 1/4" bore. This BMC is - ALMOST - a direct replacement. The flare fittings are a different size than Mitsubishi but that's easy enough. The unit is about 3" longer than the Mitsubishi BMCs. This means that the Group 65 battery will not fit in the standard location with this BMC installed. frown

I spoke to Steve at Dynatrac two weeks ago. Dynatrac uses the 'standard' late '90s Ford Exploder rear brakes on their rear axles. The information for that caliper and rotor are posted earlier in the thread. They use the 2004 Dodge 1500 4x4 front calipers and rotors on their D60 and D44 axles. The calipers are 2x2.12" dual piston with 13.22" rotors. The MC390426 should work just fine with this setup - provided an adjustable proportioning valve is used to dial down the rears.

So the existing plan is the Dynatrac D60 in the back with the D44 HP in the front. 6x5.5 with the D44 outers on the front axle. I just couldn't justify the D60 outers on the front.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 17" Rims and Rock Rings [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104223
03/02/18 10:06 PM
03/02/18 10:06 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
17" rims

... Stockton Series 22 rims. ... I also finished up the rock ring design and sent it off to the shop that does all my laser cutting. ....


Slow going, but still at it. Yokohama stopped making the Geolandar M/T+ so I'm going with the Geolandar M/T G003. I don't have time at this point to find different tires and these were at the shop, so ....

37" Geolandar M/T+ beside my little '97 with 31"s and stock 15" rims.
[Linked Image]
37" Geolandar M/T+ beside my big '97 with 35"s and Stockton Series 22 17" rims.
[Linked Image]

Yokohama Geolandar M/T G003 37"x12.5"x17". I'm not overjoyed with this tire already. The tread width is at least 2" narrower than the M/T+ irrespective of what Yoko says. I put both tires side by side - you don't need a ruler, it's VERY obvious. How flotation will be with the new tire is now a giant question mark. Compound is - AFAIKT - exactly the same at the M/T+. VERY soft.
[Linked Image]

Stockton Wheel Series 22 17"x9" custom built rims, with custom rock rings powder coated in 80% black. Zinc undercoat and clear over-coat. Gonna have to do some body work to get everything to fit. grin
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transfer case and crawl box [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104224
03/02/18 10:18 PM
03/02/18 10:18 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
Christmas is coming early this year! grin

Teraflex Extreme Short Shaft SYE
Teraflex Low231 4:1 Transfer Case Kit - Short 23 Spline
Output yoke - 32 spline Spicer CV output yoke 1310

NWF Eco Box crawl box kit
Output Shaft:: 23 Spline
Input Bearing Retainer: Dual Oiling Billet Bearing Retainer
Crossmember Mounting Foot:: Universal Mount
....


Teraflex stopped making the Low231. I managed to get one of the very last ones they had and got the transfer case and Low231 built, and promptly decided building a vehicle around a part I couldn't replace if it broke was a REALLY bad idea. So, rather than engineer the entire drive train around the NP231 and Eco Box, I decided to cut my losses and go with the Atlas 4-speed.

On the + side, I guess I now have an entire spare t-case as well as an NWF box to replace the setup in my black Sport if something should break.

The went into production last Wed so it should be here next week.

Oh, and I switched to the 1350 u-joints. The 37" Geolandar G003's with the 17" steel rims and rings are massive and REALLY heavy and the G003's are super sticky. Figured I probably shouldn't press my luck with 1310s. Also, the 1350 CVs have a higher operating angle.

Atlas t-case -

Gear Ratio: 10.34:1
Drop: Left hand drop (Driver Side)
Input Spline: 23 Spline short
Tailhousing: Standard Tailhousing (w/ speedo provission)
Speedometer: Electronic Speedometer Module
Rear Yoke: 1350 CV
Front Yoke: 1350 CV
Site Tube: Yes Please

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
A/T Transmission Control Module [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104225
03/02/18 10:35 PM
03/02/18 10:35 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****

This is what happens when a project starts pushing 3 years. PCS now makes an entirely new TCM and stopped selling the one I originally had planed to use. After spending an inordinate amount of time dealing with the two supposed PCS Colorado vendors, I finally found an online source. I probably should have just skipped trying to source the part locally in the first place, but ....

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Finally showed up at the office this morning. Whoohoo! shocked smile This was the last piece I was having issues getting. The only thing I added was the remote gear position indicator. I'm not entirely sure I'll be able to hook the PCS unit into the dash to make the dash position indicator work and I figured it'd be really nice to know what gear I'm in in the dark as the RADesigns shifter isn't lighted.

I finally got the parts below from "Pace Performance" -

PCSA-TCM2800 - TCM-2800 Transmission Controller Only (TCM-2800)
PCSA-TCM4028 - TCM-2800 Universal Unterminated Harness
PCSA-GDS5012 - PCS Gear Indicator, Red Display w/ PCS Option

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104226
03/02/18 11:00 PM
03/02/18 11:00 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
UPDATE (3/2/2018):

Using the Atlas transfer case instead of the NP231 and Low231 and NWF crawl box. Tera quit making the Low231 some time ago so switching made more sense than building my entire drive train around a discontinued part.

Changed axle configuration. I'm still using the Dynatrac Pro Rock front and rear, but I decided to go with the D60 in the rear instead of the D44. Whether I regret this remains to be seen. The front axle is still a D44 but I decided to go with the D44/60 Hybrid. Pro Rock D44 axle but with the D60 knuckles and hubs. I'd seriously considered doing a D60 front, but remembered that it won't fit without major surgery. Just not worth it since the only thing I was really worried about was ball joints and the u-joints.

Had to change tires from the Yokohama Geolandar M/T+ I've been using for almost 20 years to the Geolandar M/T G003. 'Not happy' is a major understatement. mad I'm keeping my fingers crossed. We'll see. Unfortunately I found out that Yoko stopped making the M/T+ about a month ago, leaving me with nowhere near enough time to start searching for something different. The plan is to keep in mind that I may be changing tires in the near future and to design accordingly.

Body lift is done. Rhino Liner on the rocker panels is also done.

I decided to use King coil-overs front and rear.

Anti-wrap bar in the back.

Sticking with the leaf springs from Alcan in the back, but the 3-link in the front got scrapped. Rather than the 3-link, we're going to do extended radius arms.

Howe hydraulic assist steering with a different steering box. Mitsu steering boxes are getting really difficult to find in good shape and not worth fighting with. This will also make it a lot easier to find a Pitman arm.

All-Pro skids and ARB bumper, XD9000 winch and line are in. The only pending parts is the t-case and axles. Both should be here at the shop next week or the week after.

All that's left is to drop it off once the t-case and axles show up and start work. grin

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104227
03/04/18 09:41 PM
03/04/18 09:41 PM
rxinhed  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,132
Gerber, CA *****
Do you have enough thread engagement on the front wheel lug nuts? They look pretty empty in the pics.

Yeah, big tires!


1988 Mighty Max turbo 2.6 service body
1980 Power Wagon W400
Sundry Mitsubishi Montero Gen 1 parts, Gen 1 and Gen 2 Max parts
Parts vehicles: 89 LS Montero 4-door, 2002 Sport AWD
For Sale: 1989 Power Ram 50 extended cab, #277 Montero
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: rxinhed] #1104229
03/05/18 11:08 PM
03/05/18 11:08 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by rxinhed
Do you have enough thread engagement on the front wheel lug nuts? They look pretty empty in the pics.

Yeah, big tires!


Those pics are somewhat dated. smile They were taken after I went to 17" rims and replaced the lug nuts last year with open-ended 1" lug nuts, but before I had the lug studs replaced on the front with the same diameter and length as the rears. So, actually the fronts have about 1/4" of stud sticking out of the 1" lug nut now.

Pictures do not do them justice. I have them sitting next to my 33"s and 35"s and the 37"s just dwarf the others. They're also about 130lbs +/- a wheel. frown

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104231
03/06/18 02:13 AM
03/06/18 02:13 AM
rxinhed  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,132
Gerber, CA *****
[Linked Image]

Following in your tire path, a little, but trying to stay independent.

Was just curious about the shadow in the nut, but figure that was under control.

Cheers,
Russell


1988 Mighty Max turbo 2.6 service body
1980 Power Wagon W400
Sundry Mitsubishi Montero Gen 1 parts, Gen 1 and Gen 2 Max parts
Parts vehicles: 89 LS Montero 4-door, 2002 Sport AWD
For Sale: 1989 Power Ram 50 extended cab, #277 Montero
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104232
03/06/18 02:34 AM
03/06/18 02:34 AM
dannytuned  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 391
St. John, IN
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
..decided to use King coil-overs front and rear...Anti-wrap bar in the back.


Nice!

With the atlas/pro rocks, sounds like a starter kit for a race rig...


2001Sport 3.0-Headers-Cage-RoofChop-NP231/D300-D44/ARB-Ford9/Yukon/3Link-37's+H1's-PSC Assist-108:1
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104236
03/07/18 08:17 PM
03/07/18 08:17 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
UPDATE (3/7/2018):

One of those weeks ... packed everything up yesterday for the transmission build and half way through realized no Transgo shift kit. I know I ordered it and I know it showed up but it looks like my garage ate it. mad Thankfully the shop says they will get another one.

On a more positive note ... the Atlas 4-speed showed up at the shop this morning. Whoohoo! grin

[Linked Image]

All that's pending are the axles and the transmission build. I'm on my way back to the transmission shop tomorrow to hopefully kick that off.

I can't wait to get this build actually started. I WANT MY GARAGE BACK! :D:D

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: rxinhed] #1104237
03/07/18 08:27 PM
03/07/18 08:27 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by rxinhed
... Following in your tire path, a little, but trying to stay independent.

Was just curious about the shadow in the nut, but figure that was under control.

Cheers,
Russell


Very nice!

Yep. The OEM 44s only had a 1/2" thick lug nut so with the 1" thick lug nuts, things looked pretty scary. smile Why GM used such short studs and thin lug nuts on a truck, let alone a 4WD truck, is a good question. But, yes, fixed, for whatever 'problem' existed. They were like that for 14 years and never had a problem with them backing off or studs breaking. It was really freaking people out, though. laugh laugh

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: 1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build [Re: dannytuned] #1104238
03/07/18 08:31 PM
03/07/18 08:31 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by dannytuned
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
..decided to use King coil-overs front and rear...Anti-wrap bar in the back.


Nice!

With the atlas/pro rocks, sounds like a starter kit for a race rig...


Oh, good God! Don't even THINK it! laugh laugh laugh I could see my business partner's face if I told him I was gonna start racing. LOL!!

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transfer case and crawl box [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104255
03/15/18 10:43 PM
03/15/18 10:43 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
... Atlas t-case -

Gear Ratio: 10.34:1
Drop: Left hand drop (Driver Side)
Input Spline: 23 Spline short
Tailhousing: Standard Tailhousing (w/ speedo provission)
Speedometer: Electronic Speedometer Module
Rear Yoke: 1350 CV
Front Yoke: 1350 CV
Site Tube: Yes Please ....


[Linked Image]

The Atlas 4-speed transfer case showed up last week with the electronic speedometer module included as ordered. The same part is available separately from AA under "300640 : TJ SPEEDOMETER HOUSING KIT".

TJ Speedometer Kit (PDF)

[Linked Image]

Since I've already wired up one Dakota Digital SGI-5 for converting VSS signals and have all the appropriate documentation, I figured I'd get this documented so the guy doing the work wouldn't have to recreate the wheel.

[Linked Image]

Advanced Adapters Electronic Speedo...ital SGI-5e for 1999 Montero Sport (PDF)

Dakota Digital is up to 'e' on their SGI-5. If I remember correctly, I used the SGI-5c when I did the NP231 swap into my black SAS'd 1997 Sport. From a wiring perspective, nothing has really changed there. I originally used Tera's VSS from their NP231 ultra-short SYE which will accept 12v, but Advance Adapters VSS only accepts 5v. That required a change in the wiring configuration. Not a big deal. If anything it makes it easier to understand. smile

Again, the plan is to located the SGI-5 under the console right behind the shifter where it's well protected and easy to get to when configuring. One hole through the floor with a grommet and a LOT of silicon sealer. smile

Code
Dakota Digital SGI-5e -> Mitsubishi Speedometer -

Male connector (SGI side):
A - Red			Power 12v DC (SGI - POWER)
B - Black		Ground (SGI - GROUND)
C - Yellow		Sensor Signal Out (SGI - OUT1 or OUT2*)

Female connector (Mitsu side):
A - Black/White		Power 12v DC (key switched)
B - Black		Ground
C - Yellow/White	Sensor Signal (to speedometer)


AA Electronic Speedometer (VSS) -> Dakota Digital SGI-5e -

Male connector (VSS side):
A - Orange		5v Sensor Power (SGI - SENSOR PWR)
B - Black/Blue		Sensor Ground (SGI - SENSOR GND)
C - White/Orange	Sensor Signal In (SGI - SIGNAL IN)

Female connector (SGI side):
A - Red			5v Sensor Power (SGI - SENSOR PWR)
B - Black		Sensor Ground (SGI - SENSOR GND)
C - Orange		Sensor Signal In (SGI - SIGNAL IN)

* If OUT1 doesn't work, use OUT2.


According to the Advance Adapter tech, there's another way to do this with different parts, but I KNOW this works well with the Mitsu speedometer and sends a reliable sensor signal to the PCM which is pretty important. smile

Now I have to figure out how to get the 2WD/4WD switch part working on an Atlas. smile

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transfer case and crawl box [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104260
03/22/18 11:13 PM
03/22/18 11:13 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Corrected diagram for the VSS and Dakota Digital SGI-5e. Correct labeling on the signal wire to the speedometer.

[Linked Image]

The Atlas 2 & 4 speed transfer cases (now) will accept up to two open/closed switches - exactly the same functionality as the Mitsubishi transfer case switches from 1997-2001. Installing two Atlas Low Range Switch Kits (#300378A) maintains the "2WD/4WD Detection Switch" and "Low Range Switch" functionality. Soft of. There is no switch for the doubler on the 4 Speed Atlas so something creative would have to be done there. AA suggests a toggle switch. Sigh.

Given that I'm replacing the transmission and TCM, all of this is somewhat academic, but I want to keep the 4WD indicator on the dash functional and I also want to minimize the amount of stuff going into/out of the PCM that has been disconnected or will now be non-functional. (the switches in the diagram are shown in the positions they need to occupy to function correctly)

[Linked Image]

Waiting on the axles still. frown I had to hunt all over to get a 4 PPR reluctor ring for the AW4. I can't believe how expensive the sensors are. sick

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transfer case and crawl box [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104262
03/24/18 01:04 AM
03/24/18 01:04 AM
TOASTY  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,126
Mesa AZ, US. *****
Looking good Edward, Think you'll make it to the Sierras this August?

Also i'm planning on switching to an Atlas 4, the Rocktrac is kind of crappy and wasn't worth the effort. I need something at least stronger than the stock Mitsu case, the worst part is that what I spent on the Aussie 3.15's then the Rocktrac, I could have almost bought an Atlas to begin with and be done. Good Call.


1999 Montero Blizzard package

2005 Montero Limited

2015 Mirage with antifreeze Sparco wheel package
Montero Sport & Jeep A/T Output Shaft [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104264
03/26/18 08:43 PM
03/26/18 08:43 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
The five pictures below show the 1997-1998 Montero Sport V4AW3 transmission output shaft with the Mitsubishi 4 PPR reluctor ring. Note the keyway in the second picture. Don't do what I did and buy a shaft without the key (or loose it). I'm still looking for a replacement. smile
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

The three pictures below are of the 1998-2001 Jeep Cherokee 4WD 4.0L AW4 transmission output shaft and 4 PPR reluctor ring. Chrysler shipped a 4 PPR and a 16 PPR reluctor ring (at least that's what I've been told). I haven't seen a 16 PPR reluctor ring, so .... smile
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Shown in the picture below is the difference between the Jeep output shaft on top and the Mitsubishi output shaft on the bottom. The '3rd', outer lock ring groove is missing on the Mitsubishi output shaft (see red arrows).
[Linked Image]

I have a pre-1998 Cherokee output assembly and I'll post pictures as soon as I have time. The differences between the pre-1998 and 1998-2001 Jeep assemblies were not clearly pointed out by anyone (or I'm just dense), so in a nutshell ...

The pre-1998 AW4 output adapter housing, output shaft speed sensor and reluctor ring:

1) The (Jeep) output adapter housing bolt patterns are the same on both sides, but the output shaft speed sensor and reluctor are totally different from their 1998-2001 counterparts. The parts are not interchangeable in any way. If you have a pre-1998 housing, you have to use the corresponding pre-1998 sensor and reluctor.

2) The pre-1998 output speed sensor/reluctor assembly is a 1 PPR setup, while the 1998-2001 sensor/reluctor assembly is a 4 (or theoretically 16) PPR setup.

3) The pre-1998 output shaft speed sensor and reluctor ring are completely different from later versions, and as far as I know are not even of the same type.

So, for anyone that's thinking of doing this, you need the following, all from a 1998-2001 Jeep AW4 (short snout 23-spline) ...

1) 23-spline AW4 output shaft with the third lock ring groove (and the half moon key)
2) Output adapter housing
3) 4 PPR reluctor ring and corresponding output shaft speed sensor (Chrysler calls this a 'Vehicle Speed Sensor', BTW. IT IS NOT the same as the actual VSS on the transfer case tail shaft housing.)

If there's no intention of using the output speed sensor stuff, the correct 23-spline output shaft and adapter housing are probably it. smile Since I'm going to use a TCM (the PCS unit mentioned further up), I kinda need the output speed sensor functional. smile

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transfer case and crawl box [Re: TOASTY] #1104265
03/26/18 09:01 PM
03/26/18 09:01 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by TOASTY
Looking good Edward, Think you'll make it to the Sierras this August?

Also i'm planning on switching to an Atlas 4, the Rocktrac is kind of crappy and wasn't worth the effort. I need something at least stronger than the stock Mitsu case, the worst part is that what I spent on the Aussie 3.15's then the Rocktrac, I could have almost bought an Atlas to begin with and be done. Good Call.


Unfortunately not this year. I'm not expecting this to be done until June and then we have a lot of tuning to do. Both with the suspension and transmission TCM. Unless a miracle happens, I'm not expecting that to be finished until the end of summer. sigh If you all are still going up next year, though ... laugh

Eeak! Well, that's good to know. I was actually looking into that option but I couldn't find one. I couldn't even find a used junkyard one here.

Not a very good call. frown I wish I would have decided on the Atlas before building an entire NP231 setup I probably won't ever use.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104266
03/27/18 09:59 PM
03/27/18 09:59 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
Long time between updates but the project is still moving forward.

Brake master cylinder -

Raybestos MC390426 1 1/4" bore. This BMC is - ALMOST - a direct replacement. The flare fittings are a different size than Mitsubishi but that's easy enough. The unit is about 3" longer than the Mitsubishi BMCs. This means that the Group 65 battery will not fit in the standard location with this BMC installed. frown ....


The new BMC with a Group 34 battery. I lined the new BMC up as close as I could to where it will actually mount. There's about 3/4-1" between the BMC in my black Sport and my Group 65 battery. The gap here is about 3/4". There wouldn't be more than 1" between the new BMC and this battery - which is significantly shorter than a Group 65. smile
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Transfer case and crawl box [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104267
03/27/18 10:14 PM
03/27/18 10:14 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
... The Atlas 2 & 4 speed transfer cases (now) will accept up to two open/closed switches ....


Two switch kits from Advance Adapters for the 2WD/4WD switch and Low Range switch. Note that these are the 300378 -A- parts for the post 8-2014 production transfer cases.
[Linked Image]

Advance Adapters speedometer gear for the Atlas transfer case. This is the 'short' (p/n 300637) speedometer gear for the Atlas electronic speedometer housing. (the mechanical speedometer housing uses different gears) This is the 39 tooth for a vehicle with 37" tires and 5.38:1 axle gears. It doesn't make all that much difference in my case because I'm using the SGI-5 speedometer converter from Dakota Digital and I could have ordered any gear and made all of the adjustments to correct the speedometer using the SGI-5, but I starting out in the ballpark is a good idea. smile
[Linked Image]

This is the last of the pieces for the transfer case. Everything is here and ready to go. STILL waiting on the axles ... sigh.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: A/T Transmission Control Module [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104268
03/27/18 11:41 PM
03/27/18 11:41 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Wiring diagram for the resistors that need to be installed in place of the transmission solenoids that will disappear when the original transmission is removed. These will keep the PCM from popping trouble codes for the missing solenoids.
[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: A/T Transmission Control Module [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104269
03/28/18 08:48 PM
03/28/18 08:48 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
Wiring diagram for the resistors that need to be installed in place of the transmission solenoids that will disappear when the original transmission is removed. These will keep the PCM from popping trouble codes for the missing solenoids. ....


[Linked Image]
Advance Adapters Electronic Speedom... Montero Sport Speedometer ECM/PCM (PDF)

[Linked Image]
Advance Adapters 2WD/4WD & Low ...7-1999 Montero Sport Transfer Case (PDF)

[Linked Image]
1999 Montero Sport A/T V4A51Solenoid Bypass Resistor Wiring Diagram (PDF)

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: A/T Transmission Control Module [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104272
03/31/18 12:36 AM
03/31/18 12:36 AM
TOASTY  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,126
Mesa AZ, US. *****
That looks like the Dodge pickup BMC, I think Napa has the conversion fittings for you.


1999 Montero Blizzard package

2005 Montero Limited

2015 Mirage with antifreeze Sparco wheel package
Re: A/T Transmission Control Module [Re: TOASTY] #1104274
04/02/18 08:51 PM
04/02/18 08:51 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by TOASTY
That looks like the Dodge pickup BMC, I think Napa has the conversion fittings for you.


Yep. I have the fitting sizes written down here somewhere but I think they do, too. I bought new flare fittings and brake line a few months ago since the ABS stuff is all coming out and the front will need to be completely re-plumbed anyway. Figured that was easier than trying to make the old stuff fit. smile

Dynatrac says the axles go into assembly the 26th of next month. frown Pushes us out another month. frown frown At least it gives me time to mock up the Winters shifter assembly and do the wiring diagram for the TCM, shifter and transmission. Getting impatient to see something actually happen. smile

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Montero Sport & Jeep A/T Output Shaft [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104275
04/02/18 09:24 PM
04/02/18 09:24 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
AW4 A/T output adapter housing - pre-1998 on the right and 1998-2001 on the left. You can see the differences in the bosses for the output shaft speed sensor.
[Linked Image]
AW4 A/T output adapter housing pre-1998 with the retainer clip for the output shaft speed sensor.
[Linked Image]
AW4 A/T output adapter housing pre-1998 with the output shaft speed sensor installed.
[Linked Image]
AW4 A/T output adapter housing pre-1998 internals - 1 PPR reluctor ring installed on 23 spline output shaft.
[Linked Image]
Inside view of AW4 A/T output adapter housing pre-1998 with the output shaft speed sensor installed.
[Linked Image]
AW4 A/T output adapter housing pre-1998 output shaft speed sensor and reluctor ring installed on 23 spline output shaft.
[Linked Image]
AW4 A/T output adapter housing 1998-2001 with the Jeep output shaft speed sensor (and a replacement connector/pigtail) installed.
[Linked Image]
AW4 A/T output adapter housing 1998-2001 with the 1997-1998 Mitsubishi Montero Sport V4AW3 output shaft speed sensor installed.
[Linked Image]
AW4 A/T output adapter housing 1998-2001 internals - 4 PPR reluctor ring installed on 23 spline output shaft.
[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Montero Sport & Jeep A/T Output Shaft [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104276
04/02/18 09:25 PM
04/02/18 09:25 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
AW4 A/T output adapter housing 1998-2001 Jeep output shaft speed sensor.
[Linked Image]
AW4 A/T output adapter housing 1998-2001 Mitsubishi Montero Sport V4AW3 output shaft speed sensor.
[Linked Image]
AW4 A/T output adapter housing 1998-2001 - Jeep 1998-2001 output shaft speed sensor and Mitsubishi Montero Sport V4AW3 output shaft speed sensor comparison.
[Linked Image]
AW4 A/T output adapter housing 1998-2001 Jeep output shaft speed sensor replacement connector pigtail.
[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: AW4 shifter [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104285
04/11/18 12:56 AM
04/11/18 12:56 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
I think I'm finally done with the wiring diagram for RADesigns' Winters Rock Shifter. This is a little more complicated then Rory's intended shifter setup, as I need P, N, R, D (4), 3, 2, L (1) signals to control the PCS TCM.

If this wiring works as I think it should, the Winters shifter will generate 1, 2, 3, and 4th. P, N, R are generated by the OEM switch on the PS side of the V4AW3. These signals will be fed into the PCS TCM and also back into the OEM wiring to the PCM. Feeding the signals to the existing PCM will maintain (I'm pretty sure) existing functionality like backup lights, brake cut off for the cruise control, cruise control, the selector position in the dash cluster and anything else that would normally be affected by the OEM shifter.

The nice thing about this setup is that - with the help of the PCS TCM - I will have full manual 1, 2 and 3rd like Rory's setup with the shifter and switches, only without the switches. D (4th) will behave just like D normally does with OD and TC lock-up. I won't have manual control 4th or TC lock-up but I think I can live with that. smile

Wiring the shifter and TCM into the existing infrastructure is a lot easier than if I were trying to do this with a '97-98. The '97-98 only has L (1-2), 2 and D as noted in the diagram below. The '99 wiring matches up perfectly with the shifter and PCM, making this a straight 1 to 1 wiring job. smile

A couple days ago I found a wiring diagram on PCS' site for the Mitsu AW3. laugh Definitely not rocket science. I had Boomslang send me another harness for the '99 PCM so the half dozen connections to the PCM can be wired into the Boomslang harness, leaving the OEM PCM harness intact. Now onto building the spreadsheet for the transmission, shifter and PCM connections. Not too bad. Only about 35 connections. smile

[Linked Image]
1999 Mitsubishi Montero Sport Limit...ams V4AW3 RADesigns Winters Shifter v3.4

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: AW4 shifter [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104311
05/01/18 12:28 AM
05/01/18 12:28 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Whoohoo! The axles are shipping this week! Finally! smile

I spent the last week and a half working on the wiring and I'm almost done. I have a hangup trying to determine how the transfer case 'range detection switch' works as the FSMs seem to contradict themselves, but hopefully I'll be able to figure that out tomorrow.

I got the wiring diagram for the old 2000 PCS TCM translated to the new 2800 and cross referenced to the Winters shifter and Sport's PCM. I stumbled across a PCS-2000 wiring diagram for the old European AW3 from the Eclipse which helped a LOT. Other than cross referencing a about 40 wires and one call to tech support to clear up the wiring on the transmission output sensor, it was pretty painless. Very time consuming but painless. smile (The PCS diagram was for the old AW3 with a reed switch, rather than the magnetic A/C sensor that the newer Jeeps, Mitsus and Toys used. The reed switch needs a +5v pull-up where the magnetic sensor doesn't. Which I already knew but had forgotten. Doh!)

The Toy A340E and the Mitsu Turbo AW3 use a line pressure solenoid instead of the mechanical 'throttle cable' setup to regulate transmission line pressure. The line pressure 'throttle cable' is the cable visible on the DR side of the transmission in earlier transmission pictures. It is -- NOT -- a 'kick down' cable as is erroneously reported in numerous threads on the internet.

Having a mechanical line pressure 'regulator' is a good thing and a bad thing. If like me you are replacing the TCM and have to program a new TCM, not having to figure out line pressure is a huge plus. That's where 99% of the issues come in - and also where you're most likely to trash a transmission, I am told. The three remaining AW3 solenoids are not 'linear', they're strictly on/off - there's no position(s) in the middle like newer transmissions. The FSMs contain detailed shift and TC charts and information so its very clear how to program the tables for the three solenoids.

The downside to having the mechanical throttle cable setup is that the 3.5L throttle bodies don't have the second attachment point for the transmission throttle cable. The 97-99 3.0L throttle bodies do, but they are not quite the same animals. After spending several days researching this, I've come up with some possible avenues -

1) Install the cruise control box from the old style cruise with the separate vacuum control. This is basically the box on the '97 Sport bolted to the firewall that all the cables run into. Run the cable from the pedal and the throttle cable into the box and the accelerator cable out the box to the TB. The same way it worked originally. smile

2) Change TB from the 3.5L to the 3.0L. I know they'll bolt up because I have a 3.0L TB on a '02 3.5L manifold and it works peachy. I just don't know if the IAC will work. I seem to remember that the two IACs are not the same. But, if the plugs and electronics are the same, this would be the simplest solution. All that would be required is a 3.0L accelerator bracket or to fab up a bracket.

3) Figure out how to put the second cable attachment on the 3.5L TB. I'm waiting for a new generation 3.0L TB with the cruise built onto the TB to see if this is even remotely possible. The TB comes with both attachment points but ... there are a lot of 'buts' in this possibility. smile

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for #2. laugh

I was really impressed with PCS' tech support. Very helpful. This is unfortunately going to be a one-off thing, though. PCS kindly informed me that I shouldn't have even been able to buy their controller. Apparently, they don't sell their controller if they don't have a CAL file for the TCM. I ended up with mine because of an error on the part of one of their sales channels. I'm not going to go there right now, but once I get this all working satisfactorily, I'm gong to see if I can pester them into selling me a spare for emergencies. smile

Anyway, the axles should be here late this week or early next. Then its time to drop everything at the shop and get started.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: AW4 shifter [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104324
05/08/18 12:06 AM
05/08/18 12:06 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Whoohoo! The axles are in! I'll stop by the shop latter this week and get pics. The Sport goes in the week of the 28th. Finally!! laugh

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: AW4 shifter [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104327
05/09/18 10:35 PM
05/09/18 10:35 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Danny, Toasty, anyone? Does anyone know if the throttle cable (transmission line pressure cable) reaches the throttle body? Danny, I found a post where you were wondering the same thing but I couldn't find a post where you said yea or nay. Like Danny said, the 3.0L TB has the second slot for the cable but I'm not sure the cable actually will reach ok.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: AW4 shifter [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104329
05/10/18 12:46 PM
05/10/18 12:46 PM
dannytuned  Offline
Mudrunner
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 391
St. John, IN
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
Danny, Toasty, anyone? Does anyone know if the throttle cable (transmission line pressure cable) reaches the throttle body? Danny, I found a post where you were wondering the same thing but I couldn't find a post where you said yea or nay. Like Danny said, the 3.0L TB has the second slot for the cable but I'm not sure the cable actually will reach ok.

Edward


Yes it reached and fit right into the slot on the tb.


2001Sport 3.0-Headers-Cage-RoofChop-NP231/D300-D44/ARB-Ford9/Yukon/3Link-37's+H1's-PSC Assist-108:1
Re: AW4 shifter [Re: dannytuned] #1104330
05/10/18 07:22 PM
05/10/18 07:22 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Originally Posted by dannytuned
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
Danny, Toasty, anyone? Does anyone know if the throttle cable (transmission line pressure cable) reaches the throttle body? Danny, I found a post where you were wondering the same thing but I couldn't find a post where you said yea or nay. Like Danny said, the 3.0L TB has the second slot for the cable but I'm not sure the cable actually will reach ok.

Edward


Yes it reached and fit right into the slot on the tb.


Thanks Danny!!! I was starting to freak out a little as my other options were not looking like they'd work. smile Looks like I'll be working on throttle bodies this weekend. laugh

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Montero Sport & Jeep A/T Output Shaft [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104331
05/10/18 07:59 PM
05/10/18 07:59 PM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
Things that make you go "Hmmmmm...."

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I picked up a spare V4AW3 from a 1998 Sport a couple weeks ago. I just got around to pulling the tail shaft housing a few days ago and found that this transmission already has an output shaft with the outside lock ring groove.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: AW4 shifter [Re: ES_97Sport] #1104332
05/11/18 12:33 AM
05/11/18 12:33 AM
ES_97Sport  Offline OP
Rock Warrior
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
Colorado, US *****
I think I'm finally done with all the wiring diagrams for the VSS, shifter TCM and transmission & t-case swap. Essentially, this is a LOT of wiring just to make the new setup do the exact same thing the original OEM setup does. smile Only without shift-on-the-fly and this will have full manual shifting when I want it. smile

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

(PDF that all the images were taken of, below...)
1999 Mitsubishi Montero Sport Limited 3.5L SAS, Transmission and T-case Swap (PDF)

Now, on to building the CAL file for the PCS TCM. smile

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
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