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Re: Mitsubishi AW4 transmission fill tube and dipstick [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079738 12/21/15 09:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
I finally resolved the issue of no dipstick and dipstick tube for the new transmission. A guy in Houston from one of the other forums managed to track two dipsticks and dipstick tubes down for me.

This turned into a two and a half month long ordeal. Part numbers changed between '97, '98 and early '99. I originally thought it was a 'superseded by' thing, but based on his pics it looks like the tubes and dipsticks are actually different.

My suggestion? Make sure you get the dipstick and tube with the transmission. frown

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
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Re: Brake master cylinders [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079739 12/22/15 12:41 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Brake caliper reference material:

Pirate4x4 - Info: Calipers

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: AW4 shifter [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079748 12/23/15 08:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Santa came early this year! laugh

The switch kit, shifter and transmission 'shift' kit all showed up. I need to contact Rory. I think the 'decals' are incorrect based on the images on his web site.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079752 12/23/15 10:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
I haven't messed with boosters and only a little on non-Mitsu stuff.


I did some research last night. The booster ratio is 7:1 on all US Gen 1 Montero Sports. 2.4L, 3.0L and 3.5L - both narrow and wide, 2/4WD. I haven't checked the Gen 2 Sports or the Monteros.

I THOUGHT I had my brake issues on the '97 SAS Sport all taken care of with the BMC upgrade, but a week latter we replaced front pads and turned the rotors and now I'm back to where I started. Actually, in some cases its worse.

The BMC swap was goodness. Upgrading the bore to 1 1/16", irrespective of anything else, was necessary for the Exploder rear disks and GM D52 front disks to really work 'correctly'. smile

What I'm dealing with now is the same problem I've had for 10 years. Every time I or someone else has to replace a brake part, everything goes straight to hell and I end up replacing everything or close to it to get it all to work correctly again. The rear Explorer setup has been pretty bullet proof but the front GM setup has been a real PITA.

After doing a lot of research I figured out that there are a lot more different D52 parts than I was ever aware of. All of the pieces fit together but that doesn't mean everything will work correctly when you're done. So far, I've found three different piston bore diameters on calipers and almost half a dozen rotor thicknesses. Everything being 're-manufactured' now in China doesn't help at all, either, since no one there seems to know how to use a ruler.

This is a real PITA since this is the brake configuration I plan to use on this '99 build. mad With the gearing I'll be running and 37"s, I need brakes that work correctly and well.

Anyway, I spent some quality time with Bill's 'Brake Bible' and his Xcel spread sheet trying to figure out if there was some inherent flaw in my brake design. (the download link for the spreadsheet is about half way down the 'Brake Bible' page)

Pirate4x4 - The Brake Bible

As for an 'inherent flaw', the answer I came up with was no. I kinda figured that since I'm not the first one to run this setup and for the first 3-4 years after the SAS I had NO issues at all. Only after I had to replace pads, a frozen caliper and a master cylinder did 'issues' start cropping up.

My educated guess at this point is that I have 'mismatched' calipers and rotors. I think the rotors may be too thin for these calipers for everything to work correctly and we made it worse by turning them again last week. I'm not sure what the piston diameter on the calipers is or even if they're the same side to side. I specifically told the shop to replace both when it was in a couple years ago but they just replaced one. Both calipers are re-manufactured and are from different stores and are different brands, so ....

After plugging in a lot of numbers to Bill's spreadsheet, I should have more than enough pressure for everything to work even with the monster gearing and 37"s. Yea, well, I already knew that. When they're working correctly they're fantastic. Besides, his numbers are almost exactly the same as we got back when we pressure tested the brake system two weeks ago when the BMC was done. But, it was good to see some independent feedback. smile

I'm making the assumption that I'm running the 2.94" front D52 calipers now. Based on a lot of research, a lot of math, Bill's calculator, and a few educated assumptions, I THINK the front caliper volume is still a little out of whack - barely. It doesn't quite match up with the 1 1/16" BMC. From what I've read, the 1 1/8" would be the 'correct' BMC for the 1.88" rears and 2.94" fronts.

So, back into the shop on Tuesday. New rotors, new calipers, new front brake lines. Currently installed Hawk HPS pads. I found all the specs and matched up two sets of calipers to the Powerslot/Stoptech brand rotors I currently use.

  • Rotors - StopTech Cryo Brake Rotors 127-68000CL, 127-68000CR (drilled/slotted, 1.25")
  • Calipers - Wilwood GM D52 Dual Piston Caliper Kits, for 1.25" rotor 140-11290-R
    Southwest Speed - NEW D52 Brake Caliper & Pad Set with Pins, for 1.28" rotor 203-6241
  • Lines - Wilwood Brake Flexline Kits 220-11718 (20")


I've been wanting to try the frozen rotors, so this is just coincidental 'good' timing.

I can't find new calipers anymore and I refuse to buy re-man anymore, so I am pretty much stuck with after-market. frown Piston diameter is 2"x2 for the Wilwood and 2.81"x1 for the Southwest Speed calipers. OEM is 2.94"x1 - which is what my existing calipers are supposed to be.

I'm 99.9% sure the Southwest Speed calipers would be perfect. I'm not as sure with the Wilwood calipers. I'm not yet quite comfortable trusting just the math. smile Besides price, the downside to the Wilwoods are no dust boot which is not such a great thing for an off road vehicle. Otherwise, both are direct D52 bolt-ins.

Anyway, I have both sets of calipers ordered, new font lines and new front rotors. Tuesday we'll replace everything with the Stoptechs and the Wilwood rotors. If the Wilwoods work, I'll keep those on the '97 since that's almost entirely a DD now. The Southwest Speed calipers will go on this build with another set of Stoptech rotors. Otherwise, I'll pull the Wilwoods, return 'em and try the Southwest calipers. I'm going to stick with the HPS pads through this until I'm confident everything is good.

Provided all goes well, I have new cryo rotors for the rear and Wilwood D52 'E' pads and 667 pads for the rear almost ready to go. Figured if I was switching to cryo rotors, I might as well try to get something out of it and try the 'E' pads.

  • Pads - Wilwood PolyMatrix E Compound Brake Pads 15E-6102K (D52)
  • Pads - Wilwood ProMatrix Brake Pads 150-D0667K (Ford)
  • Rotors - StopTech Cryo Brake Rotors 127-65052CL, 127-65052CR (drilled/slotted) (Ford)


Baby steps first. smile I know how the Hawk HPS pads work, so change rotors and calipers first, see what happens and then go from there. smile

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079756 12/24/15 09:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,129
TOASTY Offline
Trail Leader
*****
Do you already have your new front axle for the new build? Have you considered Toyota outers at all? You can run them on a D44 center if you like, then you get 4 piston calipers and 45 degree steering with RCV's.

After you posted all this stuff i started wondering why my setup just worked considering i just randomly put mine together. The Mighty Max has a 15/16" bore BMC, I have the 4 Runner brake upgrade AND Montero rear discs. So i am running twice the calipers and three times the amount of pistons this BMC was designed for BUT as it turns out it's nearly exactly the same setup as the 4 Runner has stock. So i just got lucky that all my mismatched parts just happened to be correct for my application.

I don't suppose you know about the Dodge 1500 BMC crossover? On PA_JERO's rig we are going to run a late 90's early 00's BMC off of the 1500 to power his Wagoneer brakes. He's running Wagoneer front calipers and Montero Sport rears, I imagine we won't be as lucky with this one and will probably go through a series of trials to get it working correctly.
The Dodge BMC is huge and just happens to bolt up to a Mitsu power booster, and Napa has adapter fittings for standard to metric brake lines. I can't remember the bore size for the dodge but we did physically bolt one up to a Montero in the junkyard, there are a few different types though so we had to try a few different Dodges before we found the correct one.


1999 Montero Blizzard package

1991 Montero RS
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079757 12/24/15 10:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
I haven't messed with boosters and only a little on non-Mitsu stuff.


I did some research last night. The booster ratio is 7:1 on all US Gen 1 Montero Sports. 2.4L, 3.0L and 3.5L - both narrow and wide, 2/4WD. I haven't checked the Gen 2 Sports or the Monteros.


In the FSMs I've found boosting ratios of 5, 6 and 6.5, besides the 7 I found for the Gen 1 Sports. I think I saw 4 somewhere, too. I THINK the Montero is 7:1, and I don't think any of the other ratios are available in the US.

I checked the pedal ratio for the Montero Sport. The Gen 1 Sport (all) is almost exactly 4:1. Something like 3.98...something:1. smile

Bill's brake calculator is cool! First time I've played with it myself. Once you track down all the information, its really interesting to see how a change propagates through the system.

Following is a link to a PDF 'snapshot' of Bill's calculator with all the data plugged in for my SAS'd '97 with the Wilwood calipers, 'E' & 667 pads, and Stoptech cryo rotors...

BillaVista Brake Calculator - 1997 SAS Montero Sport GM D52 & Explorer Disks (PDF)

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: TOASTY] #1079758 12/24/15 11:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Originally Posted by TOASTY
Do you already have your new front axle for the new build? Have you considered Toyota outers at all? You can run them on a D44 center if you like, then you get 4 piston calipers and 45 degree steering with RCV's.


Nope. I won't be dealing with axles until after April. I've got shelves of parts ready to go in before I get to the SAS. laugh laugh

Actually, I started talking to the tech at the dealership about this. He's building a 4-Runner now to replace his truggy and that kinda got us started on the subject. Previously, I hadn't but now its something I think I'll look into. I have a meeting with the shop on the 2nd to discuss the SAS. I need to do more research on this as it may be an option.

I started looking at the ProRock 44 with the 60 outers the other day, but I think that's just overkill. laugh I'm not sure that the Toy outers wouldn't also be overkill. smile Anyway, I'm still going to look into it this weekend.

Quote
After you posted all this stuff i started wondering why my setup just worked considering i just randomly put mine together. The Mighty Max has a 15/16" bore BMC, I have the 4 Runner brake upgrade AND Montero rear discs. So i am running twice the calipers and three times the amount of pistons this BMC was designed for BUT as it turns out it's nearly exactly the same setup as the 4 Runner has stock. So i just got lucky that all my mismatched parts just happened to be correct for my application.


Sometimes that happens. Usually, I'm not that lucky. grin I haven't looked at what the Sport had stock so don't know how far off I am now from OEM. But, like I said, I think my issues stem more from part problems.

Quote
I don't suppose you know about the Dodge 1500 BMC crossover? On PA_JERO's rig we are going to run a late 90's early 00's BMC off of the 1500 to power his Wagoneer brakes. He's running Wagoneer front calipers and Montero Sport rears, I imagine we won't be as lucky with this one and will probably go through a series of trials to get it working correctly.
The Dodge BMC is huge and just happens to bolt up to a Mitsu power booster, and Napa has adapter fittings for standard to metric brake lines. I can't remember the bore size for the dodge but we did physically bolt one up to a Montero in the junkyard, there are a few different types though so we had to try a few different Dodges before we found the correct one.


The Wagoneer brakes are D52s, and I think either the 1/2 ton 2.94" piston or the 3/4 ton 3.375" piston. Sport big rears or small rears?

Nope, I didn't know any of the Dodge BMCs would bolt up although I'm not surprised. I'm starting to figure out that the Mitsu style isn't as unique as I thought it was. Make/model/engine did it come off of?

Uh, how huge is 'huge'? There is a careful balancing act between volume and pressure. BMC has to move enough volume to move the caliper pistons, but still has to make enough pressure to generate the clamping force to stop the vehicle.

I ran some appropriate changes through Bill's calculator. Which Wagoneer calipers? The 1/2 ton 2.94" or the 3/4 ton 3.375"? 'Cause that makes a big difference.

Take a look at the PDF in my last post. All I did was change the front piston diameter to 3.375" and the math worked out to needing a 1 5/16" - just like '3.375 = 79 Chevy 1 ton (Dana 60) ................................. Brake Cylinder Bore Size:1 1/4" or 1 5/16"' in "Info - Calipers".

Then I JUST changed to the D52 2.94" caliper and I went from needing 1,035 PSI to 1,318 PSI.

Front
Required Brake Torque (front) (in. lbs) 43,596
Calculate Brake Torque (front) (in. lbs.) 34,243

Rear
Required Brake Torque (rear) (in. lbs) 10,404
Calculate Brake Torque (rear) (in. lbs.) 12,302

As you can see, there's not even remotely close to enough brake torque. It ended up short almost 25%. Now here are the numbers with a 1 1/8" BMC ...

Front
Required Brake Torque (front) (in. lbs) 43,596
Calculate Brake Torque (front) (in. lbs.) 46,616

Rear
Required Brake Torque (rear) (in. lbs) 10,404
Calculate Brake Torque (rear) (in. lbs.) 16,747

1 1/16" probably wouldn't have enough volume for the calipers and larger than 1 1/8" won't produce enough pressure. Annnndddd ... '2.934 = 79 Chevy 1/2ton ............................................... Brake Cylinder Bore Size:1 1/8"' Surprise, surprise. laugh laugh

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: TOASTY] #1079762 12/27/15 04:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Originally Posted by TOASTY
... Have you considered Toyota outers at all? You can run them on a D44 center if you like, then you get 4 piston calipers and 45 degree steering with RCV's.


Ok. What I was thinking about was a D44 with heavy duty inners and Reid Chevy outers and RCV axles. After a lot of research last night I figured out that ain't happening. There is way too much crap involved with RCV and D44 Chevy outers. Which sucks 'cause that appears to be a real solid setup.

The solution to this problem is to go with Ford outers, hubs, brakes, etc. Except EVERYTHING I already have is GM and I don't want two vehicles with completely different stuff. While I don't like the old D52 OEM materials quality, the design is good and there's a ton of after-market support for that stuff.

As for Toy outers, by the time I spend enough to do that with RCVs I could do the D60 outer conversion and still have my GM D52 and 6x5.5 setup. The D60 outer conversion is stronger than the Toy setup and still gives about the same 45 degrees. For whatever that's worth - you're not going to do 45 degrees on anything less than full width axles and no fenders. smile

The idea is good, but technology has long since passed that design by. smile


Quote
... I don't suppose you know about the Dodge 1500 BMC crossover? On PA_JERO's rig we are going to run a late 90's early 00's BMC off of the 1500 to power his Wagoneer brakes. He's running Wagoneer front calipers and Montero Sport rears, I imagine we won't be as lucky with this one and will probably go through a series of trials to get it working correctly.


Spent most of today going through brake stuff including this. frown frown

Mitsubishi 3000GT non-turbo 1" brake master cylinder 1.00 40.00 M10x1 IF M10x1 IF
Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 w/ABS 1 1/16" brake master cylinder 1.06 40.00 M10x1 IF M10x1 IF

Dodge RAM 1500 1 1/4" brake master cylinder '98-'0? RAYBESTOS MC390426 1.25 M12x1 IF M10x1 IF
Dodge RAM 1500 1 1/8" brake master cylinder '95-'96 RAYBESTOS MC390259 1.13 40.00 9/16x18 IF 1/2x20 IF
Dodge RAM 1500 1 1/4" brake master cylinder '97 RAYBESTOS MC390257 1.25 9/16x18 IF 1/2x20 IF

The Mitsu booster has a 40mm x 14mm ID bore. Measured that today. All three of the RAM BMCs above have a 40mm OD bore as far as I can tell. The 1 1/8" for sure does - referenced in everyone's docs. I presume the 1 1/4" BMCs do also - at least they look like they do.

The sucky part - as you pointed out - is the SAE fittings. But, companies make adapters, so .... laugh Note, the first RAM BMC is metric. Unfortunately, both ports are not M10s.

None of the RAM ones have fluid level sensors?

After sorting through calipers and BMCs all day long, I think I have the setup figured out for this build. Late '70s metric Chevy 3/4 ton 3.15" front calipers, late '90s Explorer 1.88 rear calipers with the 1 1/4" BMC. The alternative is a 2.94" front caliper with the 1 1/8" BMC but I don't particularly like the numbers, especially for the rear.

Front 3.15"

Required Brake Torque (front) (in. lbs) 52,193
Calculate Brake Torque (front) (in. lbs.) 51,900

Rear 1.88"

Required Brake Torque (rear) (in. lbs) 5,505
Calculate Brake Torque (rear) (in. lbs.) 16,284

Hydraulic pressure: 1370 PSI.


The Wagoneer uses the D52 brake calipers and rotors. Same setup I have on the '97. I think at some point the Wagoneer goes to metric D52 calipers so you might want to check that out.

What ratio brake booster are you going to use?

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079763 12/27/15 10:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Quote
Dodge RAM 1500 1 1/8" brake master cylinder '95-'96 RAYBESTOS MC390259 1.13 40.00 9/16x18 IF 1/2x20 IF
...

The Mitsu booster has a 40mm x 14mm ID bore. Measured that today....


I may have misinterpreted the 1 1/8" BMC spec. Some mention of this being a dual bore diameter of 1 1/8 & 40mm. 40mm is like 1.57". Obviously there's no way this would bolt up if that's the case.

The 2 bolt flange design and pattern is some kind of fairly new standard for interchangeably.

Maybe some options...
Powerbrakeservice.net

Some corrections ...

Chevy K20/K30 Truck '77-'86 Metric 3/4 ton calipers
RAYBESTOS FRC4156, FRC4155 D370

These are not D52 pad format, but D370 which is slightly different. Rotor thickness specs for these calipers is the same as my D52s - 1.29" max & 1.21" min. The rotor diameter is 12.5" instead of the smaller D52 11.87".


I'm going to contact Dynatrack and see how they work their D44/D60 conversion. The D370 is normally a Dana60 caliper along with the D149 (3.38") format. What I want is the D44 6-5.5 pattern but with the D370 (3.15") calipers. Match that up with the RAYBESTOS MC390426 1 1/4" BMC if it'll bolt in. Definitely need a proportioning valve to cut down on the pressure to the back. Looks like it'll be about 2x what it should be.

Edward

Last edited by ES_97Sport; 12/27/15 11:56 PM. Reason: Corrections and additional information

'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
Re: Master Brake Cylinder Upgrade [Re: ES_97Sport] #1079785 01/01/16 10:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 850
ES_97Sport Offline OP
Rock Warrior
*****
Originally Posted by ES_97Sport
Some corrections ...

Chevy K20/K30 Truck '77-'86 Metric 3/4 ton calipers
RAYBESTOS FRC4156, FRC4155 D370

These are not D52 pad format, but D370 which is slightly different. Rotor thickness specs for these calipers is the same as my D52s - 1.29" max & 1.21" min. The rotor diameter is 12.5" instead of the smaller D52 11.87".


Ok. One more time ... frown

1979-1986 Chevy K20 Suburban V8 5.7L, '82-'86 6.2L, 8,400 Lbs GVW, RPO JB7 13" rear drum

WAGNER CR98954, CR98955 GM "D52" HD - D153(metric) piston bore 3.15"
Wagner QuickStop ZX153, Friction Thickness of 0.662" (Inner Pad) and 0.572" (Outer Pad)
Centric 121-68004 Rotor (8-lug) 12.5"

Same format as a D52, but different pads. This is the 3/4-1 ton larger caliper and use the D153 pad format. Same dimensions as a D52 but thicker. They are not interchangeable.

BillaVista - 14-Bolt Disc Brakes V2

Quote
I'm going to contact Dynatrack and see how they work their D44/D60 conversion. The D370 is normally a Dana60 caliper along with the D149 (3.38") format.


Not D370. D153. Apparently also found on the 3/4 ton D44 axle.I couldn't get in touch with the correct person at Dynatrac so I'm still waffling between the 44 outers or the 60 outers. If I stick with the 44 outers, I'll use the 3.15" calipers with the 1 1/4" BMC.

Edward


'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 3.5L conversion
SAS Dana 44s & ARBs, 35" Yoko Geolandar M/Ts
NP231 B4R doubler/Terra Low231/RP 5.38 229:1
'99 Montero Sport Limited 4WD SAS 3-link project
'03 Montero Sport Limited AWD
'97 Montero Sport LS 5-Speed 4WD
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