Extreme Terrain
4x4Wire Trail Talk Forums: Jeep, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Pajero, Isuzu, Kia, 4WD, 4x4, SUV, Off-Road and OutdoorWire Forums


Search

Recent Posts on TrailTalk
Ford 9in 28 spline
by OldColt - 01/28/22 08:22 PM
monty build thread
by motero - 01/24/22 03:29 PM
Surging on acceleration.
by Trailmonkey - 01/23/22 10:11 PM
Reloading - My Observations
by 4x4Wire - 01/23/22 04:41 AM
Sad day for my wife Gen III
by rxinhed - 01/23/22 02:57 AM
Water temperature sensor
by Trailmonkey - 01/15/22 03:58 PM
98 Monty Purchase?? Tranny problem question.
by rxinhed - 01/03/22 12:01 AM
Support 4x4Wire
New Topics on TrailTalk
Ford 9in 28 spline
by Trailmonkey - 01/28/22 03:07 PM
Reloading - My Observations
by 4x4Wire - 01/20/22 10:34 PM
Water temperature sensor
by Trailmonkey - 01/15/22 03:58 PM
98 Monty Purchase?? Tranny problem question.
by FireDude - 12/29/21 01:26 PM
Happy Holidays
by rxinhed - 12/24/21 12:52 AM
Sad day for my wife Gen III
by JAVYPRO - 12/04/21 04:30 PM
4x4 Gallery
Photos of rig
Attila
99 Monterrible Sport
Scar the Cylon Raider
Mercenary Sergeant: Code Name "Sapphire"
More News on the 'Wire

4x4Voice
4x4Wire
MUIRNet-News
OutdoorWire
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 106 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums37
Topics138,257
Posts1,081,623
Members15,240
Most Online907
Dec 28th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 9 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Re: OT: Well, since today is "the" day...we gotta have some laughter.... #203011 03/21/03 04:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,634
bretwalda Offline
Roll Me Over
First let me say I hold nothing personal against mrGUY and his remarks towards me, your entitled to them. I have no doubt your a good man, heck you drive a Montero right? If my viewpoint is enough to keep you from any dialogue with me about our Montero addiction your entitled to that as well and I'll try to not let it bother me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Powell I'll try to get to your first round of rebuttals when I find the energy. As far as your second post:

1. By goodwill I mean the consolation and moral support by citizens of other countries that was influential in helping us eliminate the immediate problem at hand right after 9/11. I think you misunderstood me cuz I meant it as nothing to do with anything we extended to others. We were on the receiving end of a favorable emotional response that helped us a great deal and now is all but lost. If you think the current demonstrations (of ill-will) by tens of thousands isnt going to affect the leaders of those nations and our relationships with them I think your mistaken. Do you really think Tony Blair will be around next term? Do you really think the next PM is going to stiff his constituency as Blair has? Unfortunately Bush has been more than a little outspoken in demonstrating that international opinion means little to him in spite of his trying to make the Iraq thing an international affair.

2. You may not mind taking off your shoes at the airport now, but will you mind when they listen to your phone calls, or interrogate you about what you thought were your own personal affairs, etc.? It would be naive not to think that powers such as the HSA releases will only snowball (the power to keep tabs and control is already in there). 15 years from now when some new administration you disagree with profiles you as a potential threat for whatever new reason I wonder how supportive of these changes you will be? The danger is in the precedent this administration has set as to how involved the government will be in our individual lives in the future. I say its already too much and its gonna get a whole lot worse.

3. In theory you are absolutely correct. UN waffling "empowered" Hussein. In principle I completely disagree. This whole issue is what baffles so many of us trying to find justification for this war... Empowered him with what? WMD? OK, supposing he has them, based on this justification to strike, who else violates our principles and international laws concerning WMD? How about Isreal? How about Korea to name a couple? As I said in an earlier post, it becomes apparent that human rights, liberation, WMD, nonexistent ties to Al Quaida (my opinion based on the evidence and lack thereof), etc isn't the real issue.
WMD aside, how has your life as an American in any way been affected by Hussein's continued control of Iraq? 90 miles worth of rocket propellant hasnt kept me on edge all that much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

3-4. Maybe "damaged" would be more appropriate. A little hyperbole never hurt anyone, and it made my point sound alot better dont you think? <img border="0" alt="[Pirate]" title="" src="graemlins/bppirate.gif" />
you say: "We are preserving our American way of life by fighting a war on terror. If we follow through, our children and grand-children will have a better chance to exercise the freedom we have today."
I couldn't disagree more. Our war on "terror" is only instigating more resolve to inflict more attacks against us. As I see it, your logic is missing a fundamental gap unless you believe A. We will someday eliminate every single individual capable of being a terrorist. B. Our punishment of known terrorists and/or sympathetic countries and individuals will create mass repentance from "evil" ways of hostile humanity and turn all to warm and sympathetic love toward us.
Your logic has been applied in Isreal toward the Palestinians for some time now - and how safe are they over there?
Our macho, tough guy approach toward humanity at large, thier problems and struggles on the other side of the world make me wonder why people less fortunate than us and who have found themselves in path of our indignation really dont like us. Doesnt take much to figure out that this method isnt going to keep us many freinds. And freinds ARE important these days - look at Pakistan post 9/11. Think we would have caught these creeps without thier help? All I'm saying is evil is a very relative term when it comes to these sort of things.
Japan, Germany are nice examples for your point but one I think your missing. The WORLD agreed that domination and defeat of Japan and Germany were critical to everyones survival and everyone worked TOGETHER to bring it about. How many nations are saying that here? Of course money is power and the new support of war in my opinion is simple resignation to the fact that what is started cant be undone and if there is any gain to be had by supporting the US now then go for it. You say 40 nations have joined in support? Please tell me Botswana is in on this because where will we be without them!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

This wears me out. I'll chill for now.

Peace


concreteprinter.com
Support our sponsors
Re: OT: Well, since today is "the" day...we gotta have some laughter.... #203012 03/21/03 05:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,634
bretwalda Offline
Roll Me Over
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Originally posted by Kevin C:
<strong>
None of my protests were funded....

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helv, Helvetica, Sans">Screwed again! Mine neither! That $.25 for candles would have made it alot easier for me to carry out my "anti-American" agenda. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />


concreteprinter.com
Re: OT: Well, since today is "the" day...we gotta have some laughter.... #203013 03/21/03 10:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,169
mrGUY Offline
Roll Me Over
Ok, I'm willing to just let it lie. Once again I have blown off steam with the keyboard, and thus will not be spending any nights in the can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I can't take back the meaning of comments I've made, but I do regret the tone of my remarks. I really do wish to extend my apoligies to any I may have "yelled" at. I should know better than to debate over this medium.

I simply can no longer be in that frame of mind after finally FIXING my truck after three months, AND getting the thumbs up from the inspection station, AND just plain being in one HELL of a good mood.

Peace. (oh, and we certainly are kicking the sh!t out of them, aren't we? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> )



2008 Toyota FJ Cruiser
1989 SWB V6 Gone to 4x4 Heaven

Photo Pages
Semper Paratus
Re: OT: Well, since today is "the" day...we gotta have some laughter.... #203014 03/21/03 11:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,169
pmontero Offline
Roll Me Over
Bret,

You said: We were on the receiving end of a favorable emotional response that helped us a great deal and now is all but lost.

I say: Yes, it gave us a nice warm fuzzy feeling to receive worldwide condolences if that's what you mean by "helped us." As far as the US "needing" other countries to execute on national security or survival, all I can do is chuckle. It is clear to me that the US is fighting a war today. We are fighting a war on terror where identifying good and evil is a trivial task. The US is fighting evil. When other countries recognize this and lend us support and want to join in the fight, that does give me a warm fuzzy feeling that there are other nations that understand the difference between good and evil.

You said: If you think the current demonstrations (of ill-will) by tens of thousands isnt going to affect the leaders of those nations and our relationships with them I think your mistaken.

I say: I can't speak for other countries, but in the US, the demonstrations are miniscule. They will have no effect on the future and have already been overshadowed by the actual war events.

You said: Do you really think Tony Blair will be around next term? Do you really think the next PM is going to stiff his constituency as Blair has?

I say: Actually, I think he will. Nothing is certain, but I think he now has support of the majority of the British people. To put things in perspective, you say there are tens of thousands of people who are demonstrating against the war. Let's just say for grins that all of the protesters were in the UK. For grins, let's say that we pick the upper end of your size estimate: 100,000 people. The UK has a population of ~60 million people. That's less than one fifth of a percent of the entire population actively opposing the war. Even if you say that 100,000 people in the city of London (population ~7.4 million) are protesting, that is only 1.35 percent of the entire population of the city of London that opposes the war. For this reason, I think you are grossly exxagerating the effect that war protesters will have over world opinion. (especially once the war is over, the Iraqi people are free and all of Saddam's atrocities get out)

You said: Unfortunately Bush has been more than a little outspoken in demonstrating that international opinion means little to him in spite of his trying to make the Iraq thing an international affair.

I say: That is not true. The fact that Bush put the responsibility initially on the UN to disarm Bush shows that he does value having the world work together to fight evil. What he is opposed to is putting the United States' national security in the hands of the UN.

You said: You may not mind taking off your shoes at the airport now, but will you mind when they listen to your phone calls, or interrogate you about what you thought were your own personal affairs, etc.? It would be naive not to think that powers such as the HSA releases will only snowball (the power to keep tabs and control is already in there). 15 years from now when some new administration you disagree with profiles you as a potential threat for whatever new reason I wonder how supportive of these changes you will be? The danger is in the precedent this administration has set as to how involved the government will be in our individual lives in the future. I say its already too much and its gonna get a whole lot worse.

I say: Point well taken. I, too, do not want to lose my liberties. I don't think we have reached that point yet, but I appreciate and respect all those who wish to safeguard the liberties and freedom of America.

You said: In theory you are absolutely correct. UN waffling "empowered" Hussein. In principle I completely disagree. This whole issue is what baffles so many of us trying to find justification for this war... Empowered him with what? WMD?

I say: Ego. They inflated his ego to think that he could control the world by lying and running circles around the UN security council. If we backed up our ultimatum with unity and threatened force as a united world front, there is a chance he would have backed down. (we still may have been required to attack, though, we'll never know)

You said: OK, supposing he has them, based on this justification to strike, who else violates our principles and international laws concerning WMD? How about Isreal? How about Korea to name a couple? As I said in an earlier post, it becomes apparent that human rights, liberation, WMD, nonexistent ties to Al Quaida (my opinion based on the evidence and lack thereof), etc isn't the real issue.

I say: Israel isn't a threat to the American people. Israel isn't a threat to the world community. Israel is a threat to the well-being of Palestinians. Militant radical Palestinians are a threat to the well-being of Israel, Americans and the rest of the non-Muslim "infidels." This case is complicated. Bush wants peace in Israel and a Palestinian state. I hope that there can be peace in Israel, but, as I stated in previous posts, there will probably have to be a decisive victory where one party completely dominates and controls the other before there will be peace between Israel and the Palestinian people.

You said: WMD aside, how has your life as an American in any way been affected by Hussein's continued control of Iraq? 90 miles worth of rocket propellant hasnt kept me on edge all that much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I say: It has concerned me, my family and many of my friends. We weigh the possibility of terrorist attacks when we plan vacations and when I travel overseas. Iraq, North Korea, Iran, Hamas, Al-Qaeda, all of the countries/groups that compose the axis of evil contribute to feelings of insecurity since these countries/groups have been identified as either sponsors of terrorism or suppliers. I will feel better when there is a democratic Iraq. I won't feel the security I felt pre-9/11 until there are no countries left that sponsor terrorism.

you said: Our war on "terror" is only instigating more resolve to inflict more attacks against us. As I see it, your logic is missing a fundamental gap unless you believe A. We will someday eliminate every single individual capable of being a terrorist. B. Our punishment of known terrorists and/or sympathetic countries and individuals will create mass repentance from "evil" ways of hostile humanity and turn all to warm and sympathetic love toward us.

I say: Your reasoning here is greatly flawed. It violates laws of human nature. If people are evil and decide to do evil, you punish them and make examples of them to others. If evil is met with destruction at every turn, eventually, future evildoers lose the resolve to do evil. That's how "law and order" works. Your reasoning applied to the case of punishing evil in the United States would mean that we should let murders and robbers to roam free and just try to avoid them and lock your doors. Please let me know in advance if you decide to run for Mayor of Atlanta. I need time to move.

You said: Your logic has been applied in Isreal toward the Palestinians for some time now - and how safe are they over there?

I say: No, my logic has not been applied in Israel. Yasser Arafat is still in power. Hamas roams freely in Syria and is free to cross the border and conduct attacks and supply Palestinian suicide bombers with munitions to wage terror. When this logic is applied to Israel, Hamas will be destroyed, Arafat will be gone and there will be a democratic Palestinian state and a safer Israel.

You said: Our macho, tough guy approach toward humanity at large, thier problems and struggles on the other side of the world make me wonder why people less fortunate than us and who have found themselves in path of our indignation really dont like us. Doesnt take much to figure out that this method isnt going to keep us many freinds.

I say: Why, thank you. I appreciate the nice words. I've always considered myself macho and a tough guy. Unlike many neutered males in the world these days, I wear those titles with great pride! Have you ever travelled to the third world? Africa? Maybe India or the Middle East? If not, you don't know what real poverty is. People in these countries, with the drive to succeed, are forced by poverty or other circumstances to scratch an existance from barren earth. They either develop the drive to get out of their circumstances and flee to the free world or they develop a strong hatred for the free World. (we are the symbol of the free world to them) You have to improve living conditions for these people in order to eradicate this hatred. Removing evil dictators and bringing democracy to these nations, along with aid, will go a long way to fostering respect from these peoples.

You said: And freinds ARE important these days - look at Pakistan post 9/11. Think we would have caught these creeps without thier help?

I say: We would have had the same results in Afghanistan without the "help" of Pakistan. Having allies is helpful but not necessary for success. We are the sole "hyper-power" in the world.

You said: All I'm saying is evil is a very relative term when it comes to these sort of things.

I say: May God have mercy on your soul. If you can't tell the difference between good and evil in this war, then there is little hope for you. I'm sorry to be harsh, but it has to be said.

You said: Japan, Germany are nice examples for your point but one I think your missing. The WORLD agreed that domination and defeat of Japan and Germany were critical to everyones survival and everyone worked TOGETHER to bring it about.

I say: No, that is wrong. There was similar opposition in both World Wars. (of course, France and Poland asked for help after Hitler invaded) I'm running out of steam and don't have the energy to look up the countries, but suffice it to say that there was similar waffling with Hitler and Hirohito. There were no pre-emptive strikes and the war came to our allies.

You said: Of course money is power and the new support of war in my opinion is simple resignation to the fact that what is started cant be undone and if there is any gain to be had by supporting the US now then go for it. You say 40 nations have joined in support? Please tell me Botswana is in on this because where will we be without them!?

I say: Now you are reading the minds of world leaders? I don't think we should assume that money is their sole incentive for joining us. I give them more respect than that. You should too. Relatively speaking, Botswana has just as much value to us as an ally as any other nation in the world. We can do it alone, but would prefer that the world join us in fighting evil.

You said: This wears me out. I'll chill for now.

I say: Amen... me too. (I'm allowed to say that after typing all of the stuff above, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Powell


'87 Montero Diesel
'98 Porsche Boxster Electric
and more...
Greasology
NotPetroleum
Re: OT: Well, since today is "the" day...we gotta have some laughter.... #203015 03/24/03 08:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,634
bretwalda Offline
Roll Me Over
I'll let it go after this Powell. You can have the last word <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You say, "US "needing" other countries to execute on national security or survival, all I can do is chuckle"

I say, The goodwill has a definite bearing on our ability to wage this war. Look at Pakistan vs. say, Saudi Arabia. Our scrutiny and castigation of SA (and much of it rightly so) has led to much more reluctance and draggin of feet to work with us in bringing international criminals to justice.

You say, "but in the US, the demonstrations are miniscule. They will have no effect on the future and have already been overshadowed by the actual war events"

I say, Not hardly! These demonstrations are some of the largest our nation has ever seen. As far as the demonstrations after these first few days of war go - larger in number and frequency than the final months of demonstrations that were critical in getting our men home from a useless (I'm choosing that word carefully to mean in terms of the end result) slaughter in Vietnam. "They will have no effect" is speculation. If the future involves our men being over there longer than we hoped and more lives lost than Americans can stomach I think the issues and grounds of anti-war protesting will be revisited with a whole new light cast on them and help hasten a change of plans. All said I pray to God it ends sooner than coming to this.

Your points on Blair, For the record, Brits supporting a war without a UN resolution was 20 some percent. With, 70 some percent.

You say, "The fact that Bush put the responsibility initially on the UN to disarm Bush shows that he does value having the world work together to fight evil"

I say I applaud Bush for giving the UN a kick in the pants. But why did he turn his back on the whole process? Time? What else? And how does that support your opinion that Bush wants to work together with the world? I say there's not single reason that he could have comprimised on that was worth sending our troops out there and putting them in danger.

You say, "Ego. They inflated his ego to think that he could control the world by lying and running circles around the UN security council. If we backed up our ultimatum with unity and threatened force as a united world front, there is a chance he would have backed down."

No offense Powell but if this is all about bringing his ego back down...I don't even know what to say. I think it brings up my original point. The reason the UN waffled is they dont take Hussein seriously - and I say rightly so. The world went on as usual the last twelve years. He should be brought to trial for crimes against humanity - but that shouldnt involve 300,000 troops. Our actual reasons for war as stated by the administration are unproven and very weak at best.

You say, "Israel isn't a threat to the American people"
Of course. But we're talking the violation of international laws that Bush wages this war over - of which Isreal among others is in violation. You did fail to answer for Korea and I am interested as to what your response to that would be. (I would have to assume that in your opinion, they should be next) You can suppose all you want what Saddam would do with WMD IF he has them. If he does, the facts are for the last twelve years he has done nothing with them, internationally speaking. I am saying that to myself and a large number of the rest of the world, the pretext for this war is hypocritical - and I speak for ALL the reasons we've declared war.

You say, "It has concerned me, my family and many of my friends. We weigh the possibility of terrorist attacks when we plan vacations and when I travel overseas. Iraq, North Korea, Iran, Hamas, Al-Qaeda, all of the countries/groups that compose the axis of evil contribute to feelings of insecurity since these countries/groups have been identified as either sponsors of terrorism or suppliers. I will feel better when there is a democratic Iraq."

It concerns me as well but so does crossing my busy street. If "feelings" of insecurity are the pretext to pick our enemies and wage our wars we are opening an unmanageable can of worms.

You say, "If people are evil and decide to do evil, you punish them and make examples of them to others. If evil is met with destruction at every turn, eventually, future evildoers lose the resolve to do evil. That's how "law and order" works. Your reasoning applied to the case of punishing evil in the United States would mean that we should let murders and robbers to roam free and just try to avoid them and lock your doors. Please let me know in advance if you decide to run for Mayor of Atlanta. I need time to move."

No plans for mayor yet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I never said that international forms of justice should apply to domestic. Its a different animal. We are not soveriegn over the rest of the world. We are not the world's police force, supreme court, etc. - whether we think we are or not. Arabs have not committed acts of terror against us from the beginning of time. Terrorism is a reaction to something these people strongly oppose. What I am saying is if we are going to take up some righteous crusade against evil - we need to first at least consider what evils we are being accused of. Lets remove any reason for offense to these people, and in my opinion there have been and continue to be many.

You say, "No, my logic has not been applied in Israel."

Yes it has! Every intrusion with tanks and air power into the occupied territories is preceded by some statement to the effect. "We are moving in to destroy the terrorists capabilities to wage suicide attacks." If I understand you correctly you are saying Isreal is just playing along with the Palestinians/Arafat which doesnt make sense - please clarify. To finish the thought. The armored occupation inevitably ensues with more suicide attacks and followed by a statement from Hamas as to the reason being the most recent Isreali intrusion and resulting deaths and destruction of property. Its a vicious cycle that very clearly does not work. We should learn from it.

You say, "You have to improve living conditions for these people in order to eradicate this hatred."

Money is not the answer to these problems. It is, interestingly enough, "the root of all sorts of evil" This is a whole other debate on its own but I completey disagree with this statement. Look at the king of hatred - Bin Laden. Look at where the 9/11 terrorists came from - living conditions are not the issue.

You say, "Having allies is helpful but not necessary for success".

I point to my argument using the Pakistan/Saudi example. How could we have caught the latest creep in Pakistan if we were locked out of the country? For that matter, Pakistan is the one that got that guy. Whether we would have gotten him without thier help is highly debatable. But this strays from the point.

You say, "May God have mercy on your soul. If you can't tell the difference between good and evil in this war, then there is little hope for you. I'm sorry to be harsh, but it has to be said."

May God have mercy on all our souls. "Terror"/ evil is relative. In the mid 80's Rumsfeld was embracing Hussein and handing over the biological ingredients with the intent and full knowledge that they would be turned into chemical weapons that would be used against military and civilians alike in Iran. This is no secret. Try telling to Joe Mohammed in Iran who is permanently impaired from the ordeal, who's kids have a multitude of neurological disorders, whose wife was killed, etc that the US isn't a sponsor of terror. I am not one to hold to past mistakes but for crying out loud, the same guy that orchestrated all those atrocities is now running Gulf WarII! And for the record he made no apology for it as I watched him on that talk show yesterday.

Your last two counters - fair enough. I'm not going to pursue it other than in regards to my statement about newfound support of US after we started our attack - it is a logical deduction.

Its been good as well as enlightning. You have personally salvaged my image of the "pro-war" crowd as one consistenting entirely of dittoheads. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Its good to know some folks are thinking this through beyond the rhetoric...

Now come and get me! <img border="0" alt="[Mr.T]" title="" src="graemlins/mrt.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Shiner]" title="" src="graemlins/shiner.gif" />

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: bretwalda ]</small>


concreteprinter.com
Re: OT: Well, since today is "the" day...we gotta have some laughter.... #203016 03/24/03 10:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,169
pmontero Offline
Roll Me Over
Bret,

I won't post a tome here again, since I have already fully stated my case and backed it up with supporting data. I'm glad to see that some anti-war folks actually have thought a little about things instead of just chanting "no war for oil."

For the record, I and 25 million other folks do listen to Rush Limbaugh since it is the only source of news/commentary from a conservative point of view. I also enjoy Fox News since you get to hear liberals, moderates and conservatives go head to head. If you think that "dittoheads" just regurgitate Rush Limbaugh's views, I think you under-estimate the intelligence and drive of most conservatives. Most liberals and anti-war folks, usually just state the "feel good" response since it sounds like they care. (present company excluded... you obviously have thought about your position and are voicing it here)

Here are a few comments on your statements.

You said: Not hardly! These demonstrations are some of the largest our nation has ever seen.

I say: Facts please. When I've looked into numbers from newspaper articles, they quote much smaller numbers than the news or anti-war coordinators give. There is a lot of exxagerating going on out there... kind of like the Million Man March and the Million Mom March. Both came up hundreds of thousands short, but they didn't hesitate to to claim a lot more. I remember looking at some of the NPS Park Police data where they actually photographed the crowd from the air and did a quadrant count.

You said: If the future involves our men being over there longer than we hoped and more lives lost than Americans can stomach I think the issues and grounds of anti-war protesting will be revisited with a whole new light cast on them and help hasten a change of plans. All said I pray to God it ends sooner than coming to this.

I say: Unfortunately, there will be a lot of lives lost. We have not even engaged the real enemy yet. Once the battle for Baghdad begins, I'm pretty certain there will be a lot of casualties. I hope and pray that there will be a swift, easy end to the war, but this is not realistic. We haven't fought a real ground war in a very long time. I know we will win the battle of Baghdad, but there is a cost. Regardless, I think we see all of the folks in the US who will protest the war, already protesting today. I don't think we will see these numbers double or even triple. Watch and wait is the order I guess...

You said: Your points on Blair, For the record, Brits supporting a war without a UN resolution was 20 some percent. With, 70 some percent.

I say: These are old numbers. If you check again, his popularity numbers have jumped significantly since the beginning of the war. They are comparing him to Winston Churchill.

You said: No offense Powell but if this is all about bringing his ego back down...I don't even know what to say.

I say: Nope, it's about getting him out of power, finding and destroying his WMD and restoring liberties and freedom to the Iraqi people. In that order.

You said: But we're talking the violation of international laws that Bush wages this war over - of which Isreal among others is in violation. You did fail to answer for Korea and I am interested as to what your response to that would be.

I say: Violation of international law is arguable. I and others would argue that the UN resolutions in place give us the basis to wage this war. I think Korea will be in the hot seat next by their choosing. I wonder whether we'll try to go through the UN again? We'll have to see.

You said: I am saying that to myself and a large number of the rest of the world, the pretext for this war is hypocritical - and I speak for ALL the reasons we've declared war.

I say: You have the right to your own opinion as an American. The opinions of the rest of the world don't count in issues of American national security. They don't get to vote.

You said: It concerns me as well but so does crossing my busy street. If "feelings" of insecurity are the pretext to pick our enemies and wage our wars we are opening an unmanageable can of worms.

I say: Yes, it's a can of worms, but not unmanageable for us. Iraq will set the precedent and then we'll move forward from there. The more nations that buckle, the easier the war on terror will get.

You said: No plans for mayor yet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I never said that international forms of justice should apply to domestic. Its a different animal. We are not soveriegn over the rest of the world. We are not the world's police force, supreme court, etc. - whether we think we are or not.

I say: You could argue that case before 9/11, but it doesn't hold water any more. After 9/11, they are not completely different animals. We now have to look for internal threats of evil from outside of our borders. Yes, you are right. We should not be the world's police force like Clinton tried to make us. (ie. Haiti, Somalia, Kosovo and without consulting the UN at all!) We must identify threats to American national security both inside and outside our borders and pro-actively remove the threat.

You said: Arabs have not committed acts of terror against us from the beginning of time. Terrorism is a reaction to something these people strongly oppose. What I am saying is if we are going to take up some righteous crusade against evil - we need to first at least consider what evils we are being accused of. Lets remove any reason for offense to these people, and in my opinion there have been and continue to be many.

I say: Well... now you've gone off the deep end. You want us to remove from our way of life anything that offends these people? (please don't run for office... I beg you) Where do we start? OK. They don't like our prosperity. They don't like the freedom and liberties we have. They would like to kill all Christians for what they did to Islam during the crusades. Actually, they would like to kill anyone who is not Muslim. Remember, these are the extreme radical Muslims who are waging the terror. Which one do we get rid of first? Or maybe we should just go whole hog and take away freedom, liberty and capitalism and set up an Islamic dictatorship. I'm sure this would please them.

You said in regards to Israel: Yes it has! Every intrusion with tanks and air power into the occupied territories is preceded by some statement to the effect. "We are moving in to destroy the terrorists capabilities to wage suicide attacks."

I say: I don't agree. Yes, they have responded to attacks, but not with full force. In order to apply my logic, they would have to crush the Palestinians, win a decisive victory, remove Arafat and destroy their ability to wage war. They haven't gone that far yet. See my comments before... I think the Isreal/Palestine conflict is complex and I'm not saying that this logic should be applied. Currently, Bush is proposing a Palestinian state to coexist with Israel. We'll see if that happens.

You said: Money is not the answer to these problems. It is, interestingly enough, "the root of all sorts of evil" This is a whole other debate on its own but I completey disagree with this statement. Look at the king of hatred - Bin Laden. Look at where the 9/11 terrorists came from - living conditions are not the issue.

I say: Good point. I agree that living conditions are not the only issue... but it is one of the issues and improving living conditions will help neutralize the breeding ground for American hatred: third world poverty.

You said: In the mid 80's Rumsfeld was embracing Hussein and handing over the biological ingredients with the intent and full knowledge that they would be turned into chemical weapons that would be used against military and civilians alike in Iran. This is no secret. Try telling to Joe Mohammed in Iran who is permanently impaired from the ordeal, who's kids have a multitude of neurological disorders, whose wife was killed, etc that the US isn't a sponsor of terror. I am not one to hold to past mistakes but for crying out loud, the same guy that orchestrated all those atrocities is now running Gulf WarII! And for the record he made no apology for it as I watched him on that talk show yesterday.

I say: I know that we supported Hussein during the Iran/Iraq war, but remember, Iran had held our diplomats hostage. He was probably the lesser of two evils at the time. As far as supplying biological weapons to Saddam, show me some facts or reports to prove this. I haven't seen this data... only heard the rumors, accusations, etc.

Thanks for the debate. I'm done. If you agree, let's close this thread and not respond any further. I think we've thoroughly presented both sides of the war debate here. You certainly have forced me to flex my brain muscle in this thread!

Powell


'87 Montero Diesel
'98 Porsche Boxster Electric
and more...
Greasology
NotPetroleum
Re: OT: Well, since today is "the" day...we gotta have some laughter.... #203017 03/24/03 11:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,634
bretwalda Offline
Roll Me Over
Agreed.

Peace.


concreteprinter.com
Re: OT: Well, since today is "the" day...we gotta have some laughter.... [Re: mrGUY] #203018 11/09/03 07:03 PM
Anonymous
Unregistered
I just found this thread and want to bump it back to the top as I find this series of posts amazingly interesting, especially now with the benefit of what, 8 months hindsight?
Yes, interesting to reflect back.
For my own contribution let me simply add this. First my qualifications so that you know where I am speaking from:
I have been to all these places, in various military/gov and private capacities. I had occasion to speak to many of the 'players' at one time or another in the past 30 years, and even had my hotel room at the King David blown up while I was out in the Negev.
I have been a participant in six "armed conflicts" as we so delicately describe them these days in one capacity or another, and I have personally taken many lives in the process, and would again.
Yet I am also the guy who will stop an entire lane of freeway traffic to jump out and try a save an errant squirrel from getting run over so don't jump to any 'blood and guts' conclusions.

I'm also waaaaaay over educated for any one's good- I think institutions of 'higher learning' have a tendency to drive common sense out the curriculum....

There's more, but that's enough for the present discussion.

It is my considered opinion that despite the treatises to the contrary, there are lots of people in this world whom for various reasons will kill you given the chance. Whether they want your money, your property, your wife, your daughter, or just dominion over what you do or say. I think it is unarguable that there are "BAD" people. Now, assuming that people of equal intelligence exist on both sides of the "good"/"bad" equation, it is most likely impossible to deal with the 'truly bad' without relying upon similar tactics. Sorry, but this seems to me incontestible. Someone shoots a gun at you, bow's and arrows in return, rocks/ stones, generally just don't get it. Whatever else can be said about Martin Luther King, Ghandi, Christ, all of those 'non combattant' types, well whatever else you can say about their non-violent approach, one indisputable fact remains- they were all murdered.

There's an old line which seems to me inescapbly true.
"Every country has an army, either theirs...or someone else's"....

For various reasons, the muslim world has always (with extremely rare exceptions) centered upon authoritarianism, either by small committee (no "King", Mullah, Sultan etc. ever truly rules alone) in the case of large countries or empires, or by chiefs of some sort or other in smaller tribal based communities. I believe that unless and until this changes in the muslim world, we will continue to march towards the armageddon which appears to lie before us as things now stand. It is impossible to negotiate with someone who believes in his heart that his version of "GOD" decrees that he should die for a religious cause. Much the same as trying to negotiate your life with a hungry lion tiger or bear, regardless of your 'feelings' towards them. (Of course I'm referring to our recently departed bear expert who offered up himself and unfortunately his girlfriend as the main course.)

The muslim people are manipulated, incredibly in this day and age. They do not hear what we in the west hear, they do not know 'news' as we know it, and they are ruled with an iron fist. It is the nature of the despots who sit atop the various societies to blame the west for all the ills that beset them, 24/7 in order to preserve their privileged positions. Saudi Arabia is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, one would think, right? WRONG. It is in fact, nearly bankrupt. Why? little thing called corruption, endemic to the muslim world. Sure it exists everywhere but the scope and breadth of the institutionalization of it is breath taking in the muslim world.

Imho the palestinian/israeli situation is perhaps the largest 'red herring' that human history has ever encountered. When you look to see what the 'bad' boys are up to..you do not look at the obvious...the palestinian/israeli circus for lack of a better word is the 'distraction' given the world to divert attention from the real, and extremely dangerous struggle now taking place. How many Saudi's are dying in Jerusalem? damned few. How many Indonesians? How many Malaysians? How many Turks? How many Persians? etc. etc. etc.? What's the economic power of Arafat? zilch, he can barely afford his mistresses...
so what the hell is really going on here?

What we are facing is the "war" that everyone seems to fear, but seem afraid to acknowledge is not in some distant avoidable future, but in fact has been raging since WWI. It is the war between cultures over the economics of this earth for the forseeable future. You do not ask the footsoldier to define the nature of the war, he is never told, poorly informed, and only given bland generalizations sufficient to motivate him into giving up his life or taking someone else's, for some not quite definable cause.
You have to go look at the great illusionists, who distract with one hand and act with the other. Who are they? well, at the risk of some oversimplification, they are the ones in every society who individually control the largest amounts of influence over economic activity. They never 'fight' themselves, they manuever armies much like chessplayers manuever kings/queens/knights/bishops and yes, our soldier 'pawns' around the board.

Right now we have several large groups of such players engaging in a tremendous struggle to expand and fortify, acquire and defend their economic and political 'turf' before technology catapults us into the next level of the 'game'. This will occur with the widespread utiliztion of hydrogen based fuels at which point oil and gas reserves will decrease markedly in importance and countries such as SArabia etc. will be left with little more than sand..and incredible debt. This isn't going to happen tomorrow, but it may happen in my lifetime and the powers that be are struggling for positions now.

The Europeans, well, you almost can't describe them that way at the moment, lets say France and Germany want a united expanded europe under their control. Isn't going to happen. The Russians are trying to relatively low profile while they completely reform their society, but they must advance quickly-thus the huge move to develop strong ties with the US. The Chinese play the game with a longer view than anyone, and see themselves as replacing the US at some point as THE international hyperpower, not only as to military/economic strength, but as to political influence as well. Observe their moves concerning the panama canal, the asian nations and vis-vis N. Korea and Australia. Never underestimate the Chinese.When an entire culture cares nothing for an individual human life, an amazing array of opportunities to be "bad" arises.

Of course there are many other 'players' at the moment, but these are the principals. Now toss in the muslim nations, or would be nations. The Arabs have dreamed for ages of a "United Arab Republic" incorporating most of the islamic countries in the mideast. The Arabs like the idea, many of the other islamic peoples do not, as they would have to surrender their own autonomy to achieve it. Therefore they back different 'factions' in the palestinian/israeli struggle who unfortunately, are merely the pawns in this larger game. How long would the various groups survive without the funds from these competing sponsoring nations?

What is going on in Iraq? The autocractic islamic regimes MUST NOT LET THE US SUCCEED!!! It is going to get worse, much worse. All the stops will be pulled out to prevent a democratic or at least representative iraqi nation from coming into being for it spells the end for all the others.

What we have is a war. Plain and simple, but the war is not Muslim vs. Christian or Jew as people would have you believe, it is a war between despots against representative government-between autocrats and would be democrats in the last major bastion of dictatorships around the world. It just happens that most of them are predominantly Muslim, it is NOT the fact that they are muslim. This is a fight between political systems, not religions. Religion is just employed by them as the means of motivating their pawns but this is not new. In fact its the oldest trick in the book.

It has been my experience that you can deal with any real man/ or woman of substance by treating him/her and his/hers with respect, disagreeing or not.

But you cannot negotiate with lions/tigers/bears/sharks/rabid dogs/or religious fanatics- whether sunni/shiite/baptist/catholic/jew/hindu/whatever.

That's why they are employed as the 'pawns' in the game. A thinking soldier is a dangerous soldier-not only to the "enemy" but even more so..to his manipulators.

In turning their attention to the 'real' conflict in the mideast, the people behind Bush are taking a gamble beyond measure. One that if it works will change the course of human history forever and at last resolve the 'mideast problem'. If they fail however, this world is going to become even more dangerous that it already is. It is a very brave and gutsy thing to try, and under the circumstances and given the limited time to solve this problem i.e. before "terrorists" are empowered with the ability to cause enormous loss of life and resources through the acquisition and deployment of not only the wmd's that everyone hollers about all the time, but through the sophisticated manipulations of the the electronic lines of communication and control-not simply the internet; it is I think, the correct course of conduct. It is better to fight the political war now, than the to be manufactured 'religious war' in the near future.

There is hope however for by and large this same group of people have already accomplished this. They and like minded peoples in other nations succeeded in bringing down a host of autocratic empires of tyranny in the last century alone, the last without even a direct military confrontation. Not only that, this same mindset centered group has managed so far to turn all of their former deadly enemies into for the most part, allies.

The task before the Bush "committee" and its friends and allies, is supremely difficult, but history has shown, not impossible. I myself am hopeful.

As for those who think that if the US and its allies were to simply withdraw from "the field", leaving the autocrats to have their way..and therefore 'bring the boys home regardless'....I have only this to say and the words are not mine.
I paraphrase (and roughly, for my latin is not what it used to be)the words of the Roman General Marius who having been selected as Tribune of the Empire and concluding his speech seeking to raise an army to defend the interests of Rome-finished his exhortation in this manner:

"If words could make cowards brave, I would say more, but to those strong men to whom I speak...I have said enough."

seer





Re: OT: Well, since today is "the" day...we gotta have some laughter.... [Re: bretwalda] #203019 03/18/13 11:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,634
bretwalda Offline
Roll Me Over
...10 years later.


concreteprinter.com
Re: OT: Well, since today is "the" day...we gotta have some laughter.... [Re: bretwalda] #203020 03/20/13 02:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,169
pmontero Offline
Roll Me Over
... and I'm still here and still driving a Gen I SWB Montero! (it's a diesel now though)

Until the next ten years.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pmontero


'87 Montero Diesel
'98 Porsche Boxster Electric
and more...
Greasology
NotPetroleum
Page 9 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9







4x4Wire Social:

| 4x4Wire on FaceBook |


OutdoorWire, 4x4Wire, JeepWire, TrailTalk, MUIRNet-News, and 4x4Voice are all trademarks and publications of OutdoorWire, Inc. and MUIRNet Consulting.
Copyright (c) 1999-2019 OutdoorWire, Inc and MUIRNet Consulting - All Rights Reserved, no part of this publication may be reproduced in any form without express written permission
You may link freely to this site, but no further use is allowed without the express written permission of the owner of this material.
All corporate trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3
(Release build 20190728)
PHP: 7.4.27 Page Time: 0.035s Queries: 16 (0.014s) Memory: 2.9800 MB (Peak: 3.1933 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2022-01-28 23:23:55 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS