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Power upgrades #486500
08/10/04 06:00 AM
08/10/04 06:00 AM
A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered

Hello all;

I am new to this forum. I retired this year and as a gift/project, my wife bought me an ‘87 Raider. Even though it shows a quarter million miles on the odometer, it is in great shape. It (“Robbie Raider”; I like to name my vehicles) is bone stock with a 2.6 4 banger, 5 speed manual, 31” tires, auto hubs and (I think) limited slip/locking rear axle.

This last week I took him to Colorado for some serious off roading in the Rockies. I was very impressed. In stock form this is a very capable 4wd vehicle, BUT, power wise, he is a real wimp!! Highway performance sucks!!! I am able to cruse on the interstate at 70 to 75mph on the flat, but any type of grade and I am seriously grabbing gears and getting as far to the right as I can.

NOTE: There are NO smog regulations where Robbie is regestered.

Of course, the best possible solution to the power problem is a small block chevy V8. There appears to be enough room in the engine compartment but what about the drive train??? This would probably turn out to be a very major modification. I have read about vortec V6 conversions but it seems that the whole drive train needs to be replaced. If I have to do that much work, I'll drop in a V8 and go from there. Nothing sounds better than an American V8!!!

I also understand that the Radier/Montereo of this vintage also came with a V6. If I can find one, will it mate to the standarad transmission? What are the possible problems with this upgrade?

Lastly, what about the 2.6 4banger? What can I do to improve its highway performance? I would like to be able to cruse at 80mph on the interstate with enough pedal left to do some climbing. I know cooling is an issue so I replaced the radiator with the best one I could buy. How strong is the bottom of this engine? Is there an aftermarket head available that is able to breathe better? What is the difference between jetted and non-jetted heads? How about a Turbo or supercharger?

If I go with the 2.6, I will have it built from the from the crankshaft out with the objective of 150hp at the rear tires. Not a lot, but certianly enough to keep up with any metroplex rush hour freeway situation.

Thanks
Bob

bob-stith@earthlink.net

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Re: Power upgrades #486501
08/10/04 06:22 AM
08/10/04 06:22 AM
K
Kevin C  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 6,131
Portland OR ****
A good start is to check if the secondary on the carb is working. The diaphram tends to leak with age and no secondary = no power.

The part is located near the throttle cable and has a rod that reaches to the secondary throttle. Unhook the line to it and see if it holds a vacuum.

Kevin


87 Turbo Intercooled Raider, roller cam, torsen rear diff, LSD front diff, lockup auto with modified converter, V6 brakes, low transfer case gears...
Re: Power upgrades #486502
08/10/04 06:35 AM
08/10/04 06:35 AM
LRJ4x4  Offline
Web Wheeler
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,725
Monterey, CA *****
Remember this is a 80's truck when the Federal speed limit was 55 <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's pretty much a brick on wheel, just the way I like them.

250k is a lot of miles. First I would do a compression check to see what condition the valves and rings are in. If you get everything running in top shape your only looking at 109hp with the 4banger. Check the "depression chamber" on the carb. It's the UFO looking vacuum device that open your secondaries. It needs to hold vacuum and not leak down.

The jet valve's are are a smog control device, and are about worthless. When they replace the head they get
a non-jet valve head. You will see a reference to a Clearwater head which is a company in Clearwater Florida where we get them.There is no performance gain either way.
There is no aftermarket head but you could have a stock head ported.

The Raider V6 option, almost everything is different, you would be better off buying a V6 Raider.

The most common power upgrade is the Turbo, you get the parts from a doner Conquest or Starion. Lot of info on that and at least two turbo Raiders in Colorado. A well built 2.6 Turbo is pushing around 200hp, depending on boost.

You can get a aftermarket Weber carb, it will eliminate all the vac lines and add a few HP. There is a debate on if it's a reliable off road as the Mikuni.

As far a V8....well you can go where ever your cutting torch takes you.

Welcome.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />


98 Montero with cold weather package
96 Toyota Land Cruiser, fully locked Mall Machine :-)
Re: Power upgrades #486503
08/10/04 03:10 PM
08/10/04 03:10 PM
ForcedAir_Montero  Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,393
Maple Falls, Washington
Colorado?? Last week??? Your's isn't red with a sticker that says- "I go where I'm towed" is it? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Anyhow--Welcome.
As has been told, the most common option is to keep the 2.6 setup, and go with the turbo. That's what mine is, and it ran great at the high altitudes in Co. It is a bolt in by using the fuel injection system and block out of a Mitsu Starion or Chrysler Conquest. There have been a few who have turboed the monty block, yet there are reasons not to, without some machine work first. The Vortec V6 is a neat option, yet alot of work. As for the V8, The general consensus is that there isn't enough length for the SBC which is the shortest of the americans. There is talk about the aluminum Rover V8, but nothing yet. A V8 would likely require alot of cutting and extending the entire front of the body. There is a Gen2 with a V8 swap, and rumor of a raider, but that it was converted to 2wd due to lack of space.
As for the factory V6, The turbo 4 actually makes bettter torque and HP, and is a direct bolt in since it uses the same block.


-Dave D
Reservoir of Useless Knowledge

"But... If I kill all the golfers, they'll lock me up, and throw away the key..."
-Bill Murray

'84&change Monty MPI Turbo, choptop, f&r lsd, swapped in AT- All the goodies!
Re: Power upgrades [Re: ForcedAir_Montero] #486504
08/10/04 04:57 PM
08/10/04 04:57 PM
socalmonty  Offline
Rock Warrior
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 715
Orange County, CA
Welcome!

They certainly are capable litle trucks off-road.

Here's some numbers I found.

The N/A 2.6 four (Raider) makes 109hp and 143tq.

The Gen1's 3.0 V6 makes [email]143hp@5[/email],000 and [email]168tq@2[/email],500.

There are stroker kits available for the 3.0L to make 3.3L, fun but procey ($2600). Power would be around 190hp and 225tq (equal to the 4.0L Jeep V6 in our 2003 Cherokee I think).

The base model Mitsu Starion/Chrysler Conquest makes 146hp @ 5000 and 185tq @ 2500 from '83 through '87 I think. IIRC, this uses a smaller turbocharger (TD05) than the others.

The ESI/ESI-R/TSI models made 170/220 ('85), 176/223 ('86-'87) at 7.5 psi, and then 188/234 ('88) at 10 psi.

A "Stage 1" turbo upgrade will make about 275hp @ 18 psi, but will not make for an off-road friendly powerband. I only mention the stroker kit for the 3.0L because while it's very expensive, the powerband is well suited to 4x4 driving compared to a big turbo 4 cyl.

There is almost ALWAYS a way to retrofit a supercharger to just about any engine. There is more DIY involved, but it could end up being easier/faster/cheaper than a complete engine swap, depending on a few variables. Then again, it may not be possible at all - I don't know the 2.6 very well!

I don't know much about the other V6 or V8 swaps, but maybe those numbers can give you an idea as to what you want to do. Good luck and have fun! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />


Sean - Orange County, CA
MAIL: seanwilliams78@gmail.com
1995 Montero SR - For exploring and getting away!
1994 Volvo 850 Turbo - 402hp and counting!
1966 VW Bug 2275cc - For stoplight drags!
Re: Power upgrades [Re: socalmonty] #486505
08/10/04 05:32 PM
08/10/04 05:32 PM
ForcedAir_Montero  Offline
Body Damage is Cool
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,393
Maple Falls, Washington
Actually the turbo setup from the starion has a wonderful powerband for offroading, with full boost coming in at around 2800 rpm. With a lockup torque converter in an A/T, that can be brought down even further. I have done the MPI changeover on mine, and while I haven't dynoed or even finished tuning mine, there are lots of starquestclub guys who have. With similiar mods they are seeing easy #'s in the 275-300 hp range. Adjusting the diameter and length of the intercooler pipes, also really helps (or hurts) the spoolup time. Granted, you can, and guys do, start changing over to really big high flowing turbos, and the powerband starts to go WAAY up, out of usable 4X4 range. When we recently in Co., we had three turboed raider/montys there and they all performed awesome. Even after having trouble with the electronics on mine, I believe this to be the most cost effective DRIVEABLE power there is for the raider/montero


-Dave D
Reservoir of Useless Knowledge

"But... If I kill all the golfers, they'll lock me up, and throw away the key..."
-Bill Murray

'84&change Monty MPI Turbo, choptop, f&r lsd, swapped in AT- All the goodies!
Re: Power upgrades [Re: socalmonty] #486506
08/10/04 05:49 PM
08/10/04 05:49 PM
K
Kevin C  Offline
Trail Leader
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 6,131
Portland OR ****
The turbo motor responds well to a few small tweaks to further boost its output. From the factory it was very restricted with a small exhaust and a converter very close to the turbo outlet.

The compression ratio can come up from 7 to 1 to 8 to 1 if you keep the boost under 12 psi. This gives about 3% more power at the same boost but you will need to run 91 octane (193 hp, 241 tq). Going to 12 psi adds a bit more around, 212 hp, 260ft lbs tq.

Larger intercooler pipes, some head porting…. ect all help. The motor tends to build low to mid range torque more easily than hp at rpm. Most of this is that the smallish factory turbo tends to run out of cfm at past 5000 rpm and a very long stroke. 230-240 hp is very reasonable... But what you really get is lots of torque at 2700-3000 rpm.

And yea... 270 hp is very doable.

For a hot rod not perfect… But it looks like Mitsubishi made a great truck motor for the Starion that just happens to fit our trucks.

Off road in low range you wont see too much boost or need it. The motor does not see enough loading for it. In the sand if you are loading down and need some hp it does really help.

The rare times I was short on power lots of tq was seconds away once the turbo spooled (10,000 ft altitude, 100ºf temp in a big hole). I had to hold the E brake against to get the LSD to lockup so the motor saw lots of loading.... No way a stock 4 would have done that.

On the highway it’s a huge difference. You don’t need to down shift and get the rpms up to make power, boost comes in around 2600 rpm and its easy to get 12 psi at 2800 rpm. Peak tq is around 2600 rpm.

Kevin

Last edited by Kevin C; 08/10/04 05:54 PM.

87 Turbo Intercooled Raider, roller cam, torsen rear diff, LSD front diff, lockup auto with modified converter, V6 brakes, low transfer case gears...
Re: Power upgrades [Re: Kevin C] #486507
08/10/04 05:53 PM
08/10/04 05:53 PM
LRJ4x4  Offline
Web Wheeler
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,725
Monterey, CA *****
Kevin, quit teasing us non-turbo people. Those numbers make me drool. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


98 Montero with cold weather package
96 Toyota Land Cruiser, fully locked Mall Machine :-)
Re: Power upgrades #486508
08/10/04 06:47 PM
08/10/04 06:47 PM
D
davidlong  Offline
Need a Spot
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 15
Canton Michigan
V8 swap can be done. I've got a Ford 302 with C6 tranny and NP 205 transfer case in a 85 SWB Raider. Motor actually fits very easily in the engine compartment. Hardest thing to fit is big enough radiator. Transmission and transfer case will fit once a 2 inch body lift is done. I went with stronger torsion bars because of the added weight of the V8. Biggest obstacle I ran into was the gear ratio in the diffs. Stock 4.625 ratio is too high. I switched to a 3.7 ratio in the back so I could drive it as 2wd. I am planning on switching the front and back to somewhere in the 3.5 to 3.9 range so I can have 4wd again.


Dave Long
Re: Power upgrades [Re: davidlong] #486509
08/10/04 07:23 PM
08/10/04 07:23 PM
socalmonty  Offline
Rock Warrior
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 715
Orange County, CA
Quote
Actually the turbo setup from the starion has a wonderful powerband for offroading, with full boost coming in at around 2800 rpm...


Well, stock, I agree with you. It has almost the exact same peaks as the V6 does! However, once you *modify* it, you are going to shift the HP peak higher and higher, running the RPM's up to take advantage of the raised boost pressure. At that point, I'd prefer a weaker V6 with a less peaky powerband.

But it's just different driving a turbocharged car. I've had a few race/track cars (SCCA), and I prefer N/A or S/C to Turbo because of the nature of a turbo's powerband. Granted, that Turbo 2.6 can make GREAT power, yes. But driving a turbo car, especially a highly modded one, feels like you're less directly connected to the throttle. You hit the gas, and you have to wait for the boost to build. An N/A car gives you a much more direct feel, and better throttle response IMHO. I would rather have that for teetering on rocks, instead of the "hit the gas, and try to time the boost buildup correctly" game. I've had the boost come on hard in sharp corners before on race courses in a couple turbo cars and it can be sketchy. That's all.

If money were no object? I'd do a stroked 3.0L (3.3) with nicely worked heads in a heartbeat.

On a budget for more power? Turbo swap. About 1/2 the cost and way more power than stock. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />


Sean - Orange County, CA
MAIL: seanwilliams78@gmail.com
1995 Montero SR - For exploring and getting away!
1994 Volvo 850 Turbo - 402hp and counting!
1966 VW Bug 2275cc - For stoplight drags!
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