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Re: This has got me stumped [Re: outdoorfan] #942651 04/29/09 06:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 212
O
outdoorfan Offline OP
Wheeler
ECTS checks out, as expected. Same with the CSTS. I don't have a way right now to check for fuel pressure at the regulator.

From the Off-Road World
Re: This has got me stumped [Re: outdoorfan] #942652 04/29/09 10:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 212
O
outdoorfan Offline OP
Wheeler
Did the best I could to check for vacuum leaks. Couldn't find any. I took the pickup for a spin. It behaved normally. Only when it's idling does it lope/high idle. What sensor is it that triggers the engine loping when the there's air in the cooling system? It's not the ECTS, is it?

I also made sure, just for my own peace of mind, that there was no exhaust getting into the cooling system. That is the reason I had to tear the top end apart again after only 5,000 miles.

Re: This has got me stumped [Re: outdoorfan] #942653 04/29/09 10:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 212
O
outdoorfan Offline OP
Wheeler
Oops, I forgot to mention what other things I did while I had the top-end apart:

New three-core radiator, new plugs (ngk) and wires.

I'm pretty sure I got all the vacuum hoses back on right. I wasn't so sure about 2-3 of them at first, but I think I got them figured out.

Question: What's that single wire (I think it's a single wire) sensor that sits on the passenger's side of the intake manifold (right next to the head)? There's a coolant tube that runs below it. I'd like to test that circuit, but I don't know how? Edit: I think it's for the temp gauge.

I really believe this problem is in the cooling system, but I have no idea how.

Last edited by outdoorfan; 04/29/09 11:08 PM.
Re: This has got me stumped [Re: outdoorfan] #942654 04/30/09 02:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 80
B
Billydkid Offline
Getting the Wheeling Fever
Are you elevating the front of the truck (like on ramps) to make the radiator the highest point in the cooling system when the truck is running? It's what I alsways do when I wanna get all the air out. I've had the loping problem before, and it was always because of low coolant or air.


93 4runner V6, 4.88's, 31" mt's with more to come.
03 Tundra V8 on 265's
Re: This has got me stumped [Re: Billydkid] #942655 04/30/09 02:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 212
O
outdoorfan Offline OP
Wheeler
I have a T-fitting in the uppermost heater hose, which is the highest point in the cooling system. I cracked that cover loose and no bubbles came out (only straight coolant). However, I'm willing to try just about anything if I think it'll work. I may have to put the front end up on jacks tomorrow and try that.

Re: This has got me stumped [Re: outdoorfan] #942656 04/30/09 03:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,576
engnbldr Offline
Roll Me Over
*****
>>>*I have been keeping an eye on this one, time to stick my nose in I guess if I may.

A lope, or shuddery type idle can be caused by many factors, the first place we look is the TPS. If that checks out, the next place to look is the foundation. This means recheck the timing chain to make sure it's not off a tooth.

I do know (from having done it..go ahead and laugh, I am old and need glasses...*LOL**) that if the top timing mark is straight up rather than at 11:30 position at TDC the result is a shuddery idle and poor driveability.

Now if that checks out, next is the EGR. Rarely, some systems require a restrictor in the vaccum line and I concede I am not sure why it is only sometimes. Just plugging it smooths the idle out but can set off the check engine light which irritates the DEQ inspectors. We find that an early event (high torque) camshaft combined with our StreetRV does cause this once in awhile. The result is a off quality idle and hesitation at steady midrange throttle.

*I know, you didn't mention that, just checking. Anyway, go back and check all of the foundations, even a quick compression test is indicated. Simple things like tightening the head down while the cam is a tad off time can tweak a valve, that will demonstrate as an off quality idle and poor response.

I am pretty sure you know about all of this, just a couple of thoughts here, the StreetRV head will be smooth as silk when all is right....*EB


*Beats the he** outa me!....*LOL**...
Re: This has got me stumped [Re: engnbldr] #942657 04/30/09 05:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,686
Staceman Offline
Body Damage is Cool
I was also thinking timing, if all else checks out. Possibly too far advanced?


85 4Runner - With NEW Marlin 4.7 Gears!! It's a whole new beast!
Re: This has got me stumped [Re: Staceman] #942658 04/30/09 09:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 212
O
outdoorfan Offline OP
Wheeler
Quote
I was also thinking timing, if all else checks out. Possibly too far advanced?



Which timing, cam or ignition?

I have the ignition timing set at 7 btdc now. My road test told me that there was more lower end grunt (especially in the 1500-2500 range, or so) than before. But, the top end is still the same. It makes power to around 4500-4700 rpm.

I wish I could post pictures, but there doesn't seem to be an easy upload feature. The rotor in the distributor is not quite pointing at #1 with the crank at tdc. It is slight advanced of #1. Not sure why. Is this normal? If I adjust it by one tooth the other way it is about the same distance away from #1, only on the other side.

Re: This has got me stumped [Re: engnbldr] #942659 04/30/09 09:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 212
O
outdoorfan Offline OP
Wheeler
Quote
>>>*I have been keeping an eye on this one, time to stick my nose in I guess if I may.

A lope, or shuddery type idle can be caused by many factors, the first place we look is the TPS. If that checks out, the next place to look is the foundation. This means recheck the timing chain to make sure it's not off a tooth.

I do know (from having done it..go ahead and laugh, I am old and need glasses...*LOL**) that if the top timing mark is straight up rather than at 11:30 position at TDC the result is a shuddery idle and poor driveability.

Now if that checks out, next is the EGR. Rarely, some systems require a restrictor in the vaccum line and I concede I am not sure why it is only sometimes. Just plugging it smooths the idle out but can set off the check engine light which irritates the DEQ inspectors. We find that an early event (high torque) camshaft combined with our StreetRV does cause this once in awhile. The result is a off quality idle and hesitation at steady midrange throttle.

*I know, you didn't mention that, just checking. Anyway, go back and check all of the foundations, even a quick compression test is indicated. Simple things like tightening the head down while the cam is a tad off time can tweak a valve, that will demonstrate as an off quality idle and poor response.

I am pretty sure you know about all of this, just a couple of thoughts here, the StreetRV head will be smooth as silk when all is right....*EB



I took some pictures of the cam sprocket, distributor rotor, etc, and emailed them to Ted. He said everything looked like is was probably fine.

Compression readings are 170-175.

I put some vacuum on the EGR while the engine was running, and the result was the typical "almost stall out".

Re: This has got me stumped [Re: outdoorfan] #942660 05/01/09 03:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 212
O
outdoorfan Offline OP
Wheeler
Ok, here's another update. This time I jacked the front end up and forced the uppermost heater core hose down a couple of inches so that the radiator cap was the highest point in the cooling system. I drew enough coolant out of the radiator to make the level at least an inch below the bottom of the filler neck of the cap. I didn't want it absolutely full because I didn't want a big mess if things expanded.

Some notes on my engine, etc:

I have a '94 pickup 4x4 with the 22re. It has 150,000 on the bottom end, but head is a brand new EB/Topline with O/S valves. Cam is EB's 268. Intake is K&N cone, AFM is stock (untouched). Exhaust is LC headers (4-into-1), 2 inch pipe from cat to muffler, 2.25 out to exit. Cat is almost brand new (cheap aftermarket from Checker) and flows fine.

I have a vacuum gauge in the cab, and it's T'ed in to the PCV hose. I also have an O2 gauge (A/F ratio) in the cab. O2 sensor is a Denso from Sparkplugs.com. It's almost brand new and hasn't given me any trouble. O2 sensor location is right in front of the cat, and it's the 4-wire (heated). The TPS was previously tested and is set correctly.

I started the engine.

Now, I took a lot of notes in order to document my observations. I'm sure I missed testing some things, but I did cover quite a bit. Here it goes:

-After starting engine, the idle rose to 1900 and 20 pounds of vacuum. After 45 seconds or so, I depressed the throttle lightly, and the O2 sensor started to oscillate voltage. Oscillations showed a lean mixture.

-After 2.5 minutes, the O2 was still oscillating lean, and the rpm's were at 1750. (Note, although I can't remember the exact details, I did notice that early on before reaching operating temp the O2 sensor would swing on it's own without appyling throttle. At every point after warm-up, it would not oscillate unless the throttle was applied. A very slight depression of the throttle would bring the rpm up to 2500 and the O2 sensor would oscillate.)

-After about 5 minutes the thermostat opened, spewing some coolant out the filler neck. At that point the engine started to lope.

-It settled into a consistent lope between 1600 & 2000 rpm. The cycle time between the high and low rpm took approx. 2.5 seconds. The vacuum cycled between 19 & 20 pounds. This is with the idle screw all the way in. When I experimented by turning it out to raise the rpm, it caused the loping to increase in frequency. I then screwed it all the way back down.

-When applying throttle all the way up to 4000+ rpm there was a very obvious miss in one or more of the cylinders. However, I don't think I could detect that miss at the "normal" 1600-2000 loping.

-After engine was fully warm, and throttle was applied to get the O2 sensor to oscillate, it seemed to oscillate at stoic. However, it would jump around a little. I couldn't detect any particular pattern. And, I think it did this to some extent before I did the teardown and swapped heads.

-I topped the coolant off right up to the top of the filler neck. There were bubbles being released every time the lope caused the idle to drop. This went on for several minutes, and then the bubbles ceased. Even after the bubbles ceased, the loping persisted without any change. I put the radiator cap back on.

-I disconnected the TPS, causing the engine to cease loping and go into a high-rpm idle. I plugged it back in, and the loping continued.

-I then unplugged the O2 sensor. This didn't stop the loping, but it did cause the "missing" to cease when depressing the throttle. I plugged it back in.

-I then jumped the two terminals in the diagnostics box that lower the rpm for setting timing and checking codes. This caused the idle to smooth out at 1600. Codes 21 & 41 were flashing.

-I shut off the engine, pulled the EFI fuse for 2-3 minutes, and put it back in. Started engine back up with jumper still in. No codes flashed this time. One difference is that the idle dropped to a steady 1500 (instead of the previous 1600).

-I released the jumper, and the idle kicked up to 2000. But this time there was no loping. Barely touching the throttle would cause the lope to come back, but if I let off the throttle, the idle would smooth back out to 2000. There was not perceptible miss when idling at 2000. When revving it up, the miss was noticeable.

-I also grabbed my propane bottle and cranked it way open. I checked for vacuum leaks, and none were detected. Applying it to the air filter caused the engine to stumble and almost die.

-Unplugging the vacuum line (the big one on the front side of the valve cover; not the pcv line) increased the rpm and eliminated the loping. Plugging it back in brought the loping back.

-I unplugged the vacuum line to the EGR valve, and there was no difference in engine performance. Applying vacuum to the valve would almost stall it.

After over an hour of doing all this, I shut her down. If someone can make sense out of all this mumbo jumbo, even though most of it is probably meaningless, I would be thrilled.

There seems to possibly be a connection between the LC headers that I have and the way they react to the new head. I thought the O2 sensor readings/fluctuations, etc. were interesting, but I don't know what to make of it.

Last edited by outdoorfan; 05/01/09 06:35 AM.
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