4x4Wire TrailTalk

Best 4x4 ever built?

Posted By: Anonymous

Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/18/05 06:52 PM

I haven't seen any discussion for this, but this (in my opinion) is the best 4x4 ever built. Well, actually it's a 4x4x4. If you haven't seen it, it's the Jeep Hurricane concept revealed at the International Auto Show. Make sure to look at the reveal video.

Jeep Hurricane

Dual Hemi's, 4 wheel steering, 4 wheel independent drive, and a zero-turning radius. Wow. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: BigJim

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/18/05 07:01 PM

Quote
I haven't seen any discussion for this, but this (in my opinion) is the best 4x4 ever built. Well, actually it's a 4x4x4. If you haven't seen it, it's the Jeep Hurricane concept revealed at the International Auto Show. Make sure to look at the reveal video.

Jeep Hurricane

Dual Hemi's, 4 wheel steering, 4 wheel independent drive, and a zero-turning radius. Wow. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />


Depends on how radical you wish to get... There are some Artic snow gizmos that would put it to shame..

Me? I think the Rubi is the best on the common everyday market place.
Big JIm
Posted By: NCBBA2358

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/18/05 08:02 PM

Stock with manufacturer options.... Well, I would agree with BigJim for the Rubi, the Liberty maxed out is pretty good for off roading from what I have heard, but never driven one, so don't know. The Military HMMWV (Hummer) without the restrictions like governer, is a really great 4X4, but you can't find any of them around.... I'd be more partial to the Rubi since it is the result of tweaking and modifications over quite a few years and the designers had the end user in mind, what they wanted.... The Hurricane is interesting, but looks like a mechanical nightmare with it's design like the military HMMWV but steering on the rear axle. Looks like the big super mods like "BigFoot". If I had the money to buy one, I would just for the fun of it, but I'd bet that this thing will run about $45,000 or more....
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/19/05 12:02 AM

Although the Hurricane is an interesting design and would be awesome to dog for a day. It just doesnt pass the muster for best 4x ever built. Two engines, five diffs, two cases and two transmissions, if i'm not mistaken. it probably weighs 7000 pounds. Is it locked? for all it's qualities the humvee is probably, pound for pound the best. I mean mil spec, intake and exhaust snorkels, hydraulic winch, turbo diesel, the works. Great clearance and stability. It can traverse 5 feet of water, if it isn't swept away. Can the hurricane do the same? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: JeePete

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/19/05 01:28 AM

Jeeps have been traversing 5 ft of water in the annual Swamp buggy Races in Naples FL for years. The problem with Hummvees is they are too big and heavy. Sure they're great in the desert but they suck in mud and/or on tight trails. When they get stuck they really get stuck! Somebody had one (Military model) at an offroad event near here a couple of years ago and they had to be pulled out of the mud by Jeeps more than once. The Hummers aint even worth mentioning <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/19/05 01:43 AM

Think of all the parts to maintain/break... It is neither economical nor practical, which is why it is a Concept car.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/19/05 02:20 AM

not even worth mentioning might be extreme. I'm sure the government spent ooodles designing that thing. And although it is big, the military models, and I mean the real military models, not the H1 or H2 or hummers that people call them, but the HMMWV. This is the military model and most often comes striped to the bone, unless it has body armor, and is not all that heavy for its apparent size. As for the mud, with a good set of tires I think they can hold their own. But I'd still never buy one, I'm a jeepaholic for life. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/notooth.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: tomriddle

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/19/05 02:48 AM

the hurricane has NO storage space. no tools, no parts. the real hummvee has the final gear reduction right on the wheel spindles, a wicked tight turning radius, and 16 inches of clearance straight up the middle. my yj has a toolbox in back, a basstube, and lotts of great memories. wouldn't trade it for anything!
Posted By: JeePete

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/19/05 03:43 AM

The current base model (M1097A2) has a curb weight of 5900lbs bare bones. It's 84" wide (sans mirrors) and 190.5" long with a 130" wheelbase. No treading lightly with that baby!<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" /> I was refering to the H1 and H2 as unworthy of mention. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: NCBBA2358

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/19/05 03:44 AM

I don't have the specs in front of me, it's been a couple years since I had to ship one over to Iraq.... I don't recall it weighing too much. The weight was never a problem. The width is horrid... I knocked a couple mirrors off when trying to get down narrow paths.... The fact that it has a 6.2 L V8 Turbo diesel that has all sorts of governers on it is the problem. When the rev limiter and speed gov are removed, a properly maintained HMMWV, other than it's length, are awesome. Stock options it can easily out do any Jeep with "STOCK OPTIONS". Consider taking something like BigJim's Ford Ranger, go back to the factory and max it out with options. It will really blow your socks off if you are used to the 2WD version with "cute" tires.... It still won't touch a Jeep maxed out or many of the other ORV's. BUT, if you take it and put a 351 in with all sorts of snazzy stuff, you will start making it a wild rig, but it's still not the stock version. Back to basics and stock options, That would be something to start looking at all of the runners for asking what the "Best 4x4 ever built" question....
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/19/05 04:15 AM

I'm a Jeep guy, through and through . . . but I can't help noticing better 4x4's from various companies. The only rig that has really caught my eye in the last fee years that I consider perhaps the best 4x4 would be the Unimogs! They seem un-stop-able! I've only have seen a fee on the trails, but they'll make our Jeep rockcrawling rigs look silly! I haven't seen a Jeep trail obstacle they couldn't do easily! But, Like Jim points out, when you consider real every day life and wages, it's difficult to consider anything but Jeeps for trail rigs. Just my opinion.
Posted By: JeePete

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/19/05 04:51 AM

Yeah they're mighty cool! But I've seen lots of trails here in MS and AL they can't do for the same reason Humvees can't do them. they're too big. The unimog I just looked at has very similar dimentions to the humvee. 84.6" wide 198" long 6172lbs
(open troop carrier) Then again I've seen lots of trails You couldn't do in a Jeep because of their size. I guess it all depends on where you want to go when deciding what is the best 4x4 ever built. The Half-Safe gets my vote, the amphibious Jeep that went around the world Land and sea. What other 4x4 can claim to have ridden out a Hurricane while crossing the Atlantic under it's own power? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: RockJock

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/19/05 04:59 AM

Land Rover??? They can kick some ass straight outa the box. I would take one.
Hummers are prerunner, desert racing trucks! Not trail rigs!
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/19/05 05:10 AM

it all depends on where you want to go when deciding what is the best 4x4 ever built <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/19/05 02:40 PM

Right. Depending on what type of wheelin you do, you'll have a different idea of what would be the ideal 4x4. And for a po boy, a cj with a mild lift, good tires, and a rear lock right is about as good as you can get without breaking the bank. Yeah, Unimogs are awesome, so are Galendanwagons and Hurricanes I'm sure but theyre outta my price range so I wont even consider em. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: kewlynx

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/20/05 04:21 AM

Unimogs have my vote; we have a few up here. Beechazz on the trails north (from a Yotahead)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/20/05 04:25 AM

I think this is the best.
http://jeepin.com/news/rescue/index.asp
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/20/05 02:03 PM

That rescue is pretty sweet. Are they going to produce it? It be interesting to see the sticker. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/20/05 09:05 PM

RockJock, you said, Landrover? Are you joking? There used to be some able Landrovers, but they don't sell in the USA any more, as far as I know! Every landrover I see on the trail is car-like and has difficulty traversing smallish, simple rock obstacles. Okay, maybe I could have got that Landrover over the obstacle that day, but I don't think these Landrover cars and Mercedes g-wagons have anything over the Jeep Rubicon (stock -vs- stock)!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/21/05 12:30 AM

Ditto. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: RockJock

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/21/05 01:00 AM

You know I may be thinking a little more old school. I watched one around 90 or so Rover that did some pretty narly stuff. Ugly as sin but I was pretty inpressed at its capability.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/22/05 02:30 PM

This just goes to show that everyone has their personal preference, and the best 4x4 vehicle for one person might be the worst for another.

I think the Hurricane is a killer design that I wouldn't mind playing with for a day or two. I definitely wouldn't want to own one, due to the maintenance nightmare, and I severly doubt it would ever be slated for production. The thing I like the most about the Hurricane is that it shows Jeep likes to pursue new ideas.

I personally think that the Rubi is the best stock production 4x. Plus, with all of the money you save from the cost of a Hummer, you can customize it to your liking. And still fit it in an average parking space...
Posted By: Chris_J

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/24/05 02:03 PM

2 WORDS DODGE RAIDER/ MITSU MONTERO SORRY COULDNT HELP IM A RAIDER DRIVER
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/24/05 02:48 PM

Chris,

I'm not going to call you an idiot, but your post reflects the majority of 4x4 vehicle owners that promote their personal bias for anything they have purchased.

I passed one of your montero's on the highway yesterday; I couldn't help noticing the narrow and tall profile this rig has . . . wouldn't take much of a trail to lay it on its side.

You obviously have had very little time acutally four wheeling to even begin to compare the montero to the few vehicles discussed above. Guys like you should keep their comments restricted to sites where the posters have a similar mentality, in my opinion. Attempting to stir-up the pot in this manner is just going to get your ego stepped on. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I would recommend you first attempt to actually four wheel your montero for a period of time before revisiting this board; or after you purchase a capable 4x4! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/nana.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Chris_J

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/25/05 01:32 PM

Actually Fred I have taken it "actully 4wheeling" i used to live in virginia and we used to go out to the shandoah mtns almost every weekend. and your comment about them rolling not a problem, look in the MOST USED FORUM on here the mitsu/dodge forum about roll-overs in these. Its not an issue. also not to be rude but most jeep drivers i have encountered on the trails seem to be really cocky about their jeeps when they see my Raider and what it can climb. And i am not bias towards mitsus, i do like them but i would take a Rubicon, i couldnt justify spending 28,000 on one. But thats just my opinion.
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/25/05 03:41 PM

Chris,
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
You continue to miss the point! We're discussing vastly superior rigs! Montero's <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hey, Chris! Just having a little tongue-in-cheek fun! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> What do you expect, anyway . . . this is a Jeep board! BTW, you can buy a Rubicon (TJ) for around $22-$23 thousand. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/25/05 10:37 PM

Everybody's gonna have a different answer for this one. What about the unlimited class trucks that race the Baja 1000? Theyre pretty hardcore. I could probably design some exotic tube type rig that would be my ultimate 4x4 but I doubt it would ever be a reality. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/26/05 12:20 AM

I think we are considering stock here... Just about any tube buggy will beat our jeeps. If you want the ULTIMATE in ability to go places, get a dirt bike. I bet with my bike I can go twice the places anyone here can in half the time....
Posted By: tomriddle

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/26/05 12:46 AM

not if i'm on my dirtbike! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/26/05 02:24 AM

Show me a bike with 4 wheel drive and I'll call it a winner. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/28/05 06:14 PM

Land Rovers blaaa. Note the Jeep pulling the Land Rover over a spot that a Stock Samurai just passed (Not shown).
Pic

Quote
RockJock, you said, Landrover? Are you joking? There used to be some able Landrovers, but they don't sell in the USA any more, as far as I know! Every landrover I see on the trail is car-like and has difficulty traversing smallish, simple rock obstacles. Okay, maybe I could have got that Landrover over the obstacle that day, but I don't think these Landrover cars and Mercedes g-wagons have anything over the Jeep Rubicon (stock -vs- stock)!
Posted By: BigJim

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/28/05 09:43 PM

Scuse me, but where is the dudes radiator?? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

[img]http://www.texasoffroad.net/galleries/ohv/album71/100_1015?full=1[/img]
Posted By: TOASTY

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/28/05 10:46 PM

what a bunch of garbage 4 wheel steering would probably snap like twig rich poeple will buy these and put 20's on them and get in and out of tight parking spaces at the mall with the greatest of ease <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> jeep should remake that cabover 4x4 jeep thing those were cool swb too [Linked Image] but more modern like this [Linked Image] [Linked Image] comes with factory lockers oh yeah and montero's dont tip that easy and they come with big axles like mine 10 inch 35 spline locker all from the factory most jeeps come with dana 35's i have seen zukes break those <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image] monteros eat jeeps alive
i have seen tube frame jeeps with 38's and tube roof roll on the oil change pit but not one montero with or without its roof but what can i say jeeps are just the hype right now <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> and our parts dont break like yours
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 12:03 AM

mid 40's willy with military spec winch, if it cant
drive threw it drag it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 12:06 AM

LOL <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/notooth.gif" alt="" />
In the bed/back of course <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shiner.gif" alt="" />
Quote
Scuse me, but where is the dudes radiator?? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

[img]http://www.texasoffroad.net/galleries/ohv/album71/100_1015?full=1[/img]
Posted By: valleycat

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 12:08 AM

montero? wtf? i thought they were just for getting groceries. whatever dude. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 12:16 AM

Quote
what a bunch of garbage 4 wheel steering would probably snap like twig rich poeple will buy these and put 20's on them and get in and out of tight parking spaces at the mall with the greatest of ease <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> jeep should remake that cabover 4x4 jeep thing those were cool swb too [Linked Image] but more modern like this [Linked Image] [image]
]http://pics.montypics.com/ccnvweb/2005-03-23/1111630394_fuso_p2.jpg[/image] comes with factory lockers oh yeah and montero's dont tip that easy and they come with big axles like mine 10 inch 35 spline locker all from the factory most jeeps come with dana 35's i have seen zukes break those <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image] monteros eat jeeps alive
i have seen tube frame jeeps with 38's and tube roof roll on the oil change pit but not one montero with or without its roof but what can i say jeeps are just the hype right now <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> and our parts dont break like yours



<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> What a maroon! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
You could not have said it better; your post is "what a bunch of garbage "! One thing is clear, you certainly have a bias for Montero's. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />

We see this all the time, four wheelers attempting to promote the vehicles or kits they have purchased. I think the point is well made above that there are trails that are more suited to certain types of vehicles. Other than logging roads and moderate trails, What else is the Montero suited for? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

What is noticeable, is that Montero's are not commonly used on difficult rockcrawling trails here it Colorado and Utah; and like many SUV's such as the Montero, they certainly are not in the same class as the Unimogs . . . but, neither is the Jeep Wrangler, TJ or Rubicon (however, the Rubicon comes close!)

Your point about the dana35 axle is well taken, but with today's Jeeps, you get what you pay for. If you want a good axle in the rear of your Wrangler, Unlimited, or Rubicon, these rigs are now available with a Dana44 . . . it's been that way since 1997.

I find it incredible how blind some four wheelers can be to other obviously, vastly superior, 4x4's simply due to their bias to a particular vehicle brand. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

As far as Jeeps being the product of choice for many offroad four wheelers today . . . it has been that way since 1948! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" /> I am sure that a lot of the jeep's popularity is its relatively low cost and the huge aftermarket support available to build the Jeep into even a more capable offroad rig! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />

It's bad enough that you spewed your bias for SUV's all over our jeep-board, but you also decided to write about your questionable bias without using any punctuation; this is very impolite! If you have a point, at least express it in a legible form! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TOASTY

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 01:07 AM

jeeps would be cool if they came with dana 60's and good flex and i dont like to trail fix and its not in my budget to build a crawler out of a jeep when i can buy a montero and some tires and its ready to go but my uncle is a jeep guy and thats why i like to give you guys a hard time and every time i am on the trail drunkass jeep guys say things like what the hell is a raider doing out here <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" /> some pretty fun times <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> some jeep dude is always bashing on my montero
just thought i would defend montero's today <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shiner.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 04:25 AM

"and" Is not punctuation! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I've wheeled with zuki's out of the Four Corners Area, over in Moab; they had a few rigs pretty well set-up with lockers, gears, and 35" BFG's! I think their breakover angle was nearly non-existent! But, I also have helped a stock zuki make it backdown the Mt.Blanca Trail in Southern Colorado. The rig was actually falling apart as my buddy with a CJ7 with a V8, towed the zuki after the driver broke the rear driveshaft driving down the trail. We then had to stop about every 1/4 mile to pick up leaf springs and bolts that were falling off the rig. The suspension and driveline seemed very tiny and flimsy. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 05:05 AM

Quote
and good flex


Have you been in a TJ? Those things a CRAZY flexy with the swaybars out. Have you been in a ZJ or XJ?

Ignorance is bliss.
Posted By: TOASTY

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 09:13 AM

well your right and jeeps come with front solid axles and monteros don't so i guess jeeps are THE top of the food chain and montero's will never crawl over the big rocks and and and mitsubishi
despite having the most durable trucks ever proved by the Dakar rally have no idea what rock crawling is and also even more only put lockers in monteros AND JEEP RUBICON's so they can crawl into and out of parking spaces at Target
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 03:34 PM

I'm sure you had a point somewhere in your post . . . <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/baby.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: BoggerCJ7

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 03:37 PM

Ah crap, I was hoping you wouldn't show THAT picture. I knew someone would post it to finally put an end to this whole topic. My friend, you're just making an <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> out of yourself now.

Chris
Posted By: JasonB

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 04:45 PM

I'm not gonna sit here and brand bash or people bash or succomb to name calling like some of the less mature people in this board, but the lot of you make me glad I never became a "jeeper"

And now for the long awaited plug for a brand...

Isuzu weighs up there with the top groups of bone stock vehicles that can, will, and HAVE traversed some of THE worst terrain on earth. Right up there with Toyota, and Mitsubishi. Problem is this...most of the people yelling "only in a Jeep" have lived ONLY in the States. The Dakar rally is but one overseas competition where one of the "japanese trucks" dominates.

As for making a rig trail worthy, and the amount of money it takes to do it...

2000 Isuzu Amigo can be had for about 7500 bucks or less. (if you can find one...seems most Isuzu owners tend to hang on to their truck for an abnormally long time. Particularly the very able Trooper)
Comes stock with 208+ horsepower, Dana 44 in the rear, ~70:1 w/automatic...and it will only cost you ~200 bucks to put an additional 3 inches of suspension lift, plus big tires...it will fit 31x10.50's with NO mods, and with minor trimming you can fit 33's easily. Plus...it rides nice at this height and is a very comfy daily driver.

www.trailseeker.com for some pics.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 06:40 PM

I lived in England for the last few years, and the major 4x4 mags over there are ditching their home-based Landrovers in favor of TJs, WJs, and Cherokees (known here of course, as the Liberty). Sure, there are several 4x4s out there that can traverse rough terrain, but Jeeps are designed to go off-road as part of their normal operation. Most of these other vehicles usually do not include stringent off-road testing before their release. Jeeps probably have the best aftermarket support for any 4x4 as well.

Dakar? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />, That's just sandune racing you could do with 2wd vehicles.

I don't have any problem with people discussing 4x4s other than Jeeps, I only expect basic grammar. That way I can actually read the post. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/zombie.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 07:16 PM

Quote
and it will only cost you ~200 bucks to put an additional 3 inches of suspension lift, plus big tires...it will fit 31x10.50's with NO mods, and with minor trimming you can fit 33's easily


With my YJ, I have ran 31x10.5's for years with no lift. With minor fender trimming, 33x12.5's fit easily with no lift... Same goes for a TJ, except their fenders are a bit prettier and more of a shame to cut into.

So lets see if we want to make a trail rig with a YJ running 33's. 2500$ for a beat up post 91 YJ with a 4.0 and the cost of 4 33's and the cost of some cheap shears that will cut through plastic. With the multiple thousands saved on the jeep you could go about and replace the crappy axles bolt in a cheap coil lift and still be a little heavier in the pockets.

Yes mitsu's and montereo's and isuzu's and toy's have some nice Amenities, but as Fred keeps saying, you sre going to find alot of people on the jeep bored that are jeep biased.
Posted By: eightyeight

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 07:52 PM

Quote
Your point about the dana35 axle is well taken, but with today's Jeeps, you get what you pay for. If you want a good axle in the rear of your Wrangler, Unlimited, or Rubicon, these rigs are now available with a Dana44 . . . it's been that way since 1997.


All toyota's use d44 equivalent axles!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/nana.gif" alt="" />

Montero's can be quite caipable vehicles!! And HEY, I DONT OWN ONE! granted their not like heavensent or anything, but they go OK.

Old Landrovers can do some incredible stuff. A mechanic at the gas station i work at had an old SWB. Bone stock, it would go places that lifted, locked toyotas AND JEEPS would not. The new ones suck, and reqire no mention, however.

All said and done i think i would vote for the rubi as the most caipable 4x4 out of the box, but i would never buy one.

you say people choose jeeps in part because of low cost and big aftermarket. Ok, but around here toyotas outnumber jeeps 5-1, because nobody has any money. Toyotas are dirt cheap, have a big aftermarket support, and do take a serious pounding.

When is really comes down to it, you can make pretty much make anything quite caipable. If i SAS'ed an awd corrolla, i bet it would go ok! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

To each his own.
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 07:52 PM

Jason wrote "I'm not gonna sit here and brand bash or people bash or succomb to name calling like some of the less mature people in this board, but the lot of you make me glad I never became a "jeeper" "

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Jason, I resemble that remark! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> In the sake of having a little tongue-in-cheek fun, I'll own up to being the less mature Jeep owner.
Honestly, I do pay some attention to other 4x4's available in our marketplace, but I do not believe that isuzu, mitibishi, Montero, or other similar vehicles can possibly be rated the best 4x4's available . . . I would put them in the same catagory as Ford Explorers, Chevy Blazers, and Dodge Dakota's! Toyota has some good products, I like the clearance they have, and stock capabilities right off the showroom floor. Credit has to go to those manufacturers that had the forethought to include a beefy axle in their rigs; It took Jeep several decades to begin to listen to their customers!
Get over the brand loyality! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> The topic is the best 4x4 available, and has little to do with what an individual settled for when they purchased their vehicle. The Dakar Rally is in many ways similar to the Baja Rally --- those rigs are race specific --- and are in a catagory different than I would use to select the best 4x4! I think we should consider the best stock 4x4 in several trail conditions, namely sand, mud, snow, ice, and rocks! Unimogs were my suggestion, but it was pointed out that they didn't seem to do well on trails with deep mud. Ground clearance may keep the new Jeeps from being considered the overall best, but kudos have to be given to DC for offering the Rubicon to our marketplace.
Much is made about the money some Jeep owners will spend to build a specific trail worthy rig. This is especially common with rockcrawlers that want to easily traverse any trail obstacle they should encounter. But, the Jeep can be made into a superior trail rig for much less than $7500!
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 08:23 PM

88 wrote "and do take a serious pounding."

I think there is a big difference in what four wheelers consider a difficult trail. Trail conditions vary a great deal from region to region. We judge 4x4's by there ability to get over, or through, these trail obstacles. Obviously, the trails in NH and Maine are a little less demanding of a 4x4 than some of the notorious trails in the SE, and the NW, but defintely less demanding than the trails in CA, AZ, NM, CO, UT & Dakotas. Oh sure, there are difficult trails in every region, but overall the "pounding" 4x4 rigs receive from trails in the western and SW regions; basically, west of Denver, Colorado, is significantly more severe. (Just my opinion.) So, how can you judge the best 4x4 rig if your four wheeling experiences are at best, from the moderate trails of the NE? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/29/05 08:26 PM

Quote
All said and done i think i would vote for the rubi as the most caipable 4x4 out of the box, but i would never buy one


Agreed way to costly for something that is going to go down to 25% its value once proporly used...

I do have respect for the older early 80 toy's with solid ale fronts. Those were burley machines.
Posted By: tomriddle

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 12:54 AM

is the topic STOCK 4x4? anyone seen the new dodge powerwagon? only vehicle i know of with a factory winch, beefy solid axles and lockers. it's basically built trailworthy right out of the factory (though i've only seen pictures). i don't think i'd put any unibody on the list for a bunch of reasons. going on the basis of stock, solid axles, and lockers the list isn't very long...
Posted By: COTrooper

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 01:29 AM

What about an old FJ40? I'd rather have that over any Jeep (with the possible exception a Rubi Unlimited :drool:) and it seems pretty capable out of the box. Never mind that lifting one can be super cheap and the old straight six motors (F through 3F, anyway) seem to be nearly bulletproof.

Having said that, I'd love to have any old Landcruiser, FJ40-FJ62, a Land Rover, swb or lwb, or a Willy's wagon... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> My old Trooper II will do for now, though...
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 02:58 AM

I have always liked the FJ-40 I bought new in 1972; it was my very first 4x4. There were a lot of things I liked about FJ-40's, but it would be easy, today, to take a new TJ right off the showroom floor over an FJ-40. I not sure if this is true or not; but, I've heard that the FJ-40 is being made in Canada with a diesel engine. (?) Anybody know for sure?
Posted By: eightyeight

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 08:33 AM

Quote
So, how can you judge the best 4x4 rig if your four wheeling experiences are at best, from the moderate trails of the NE?


Sir, i was not saying toyotas are the best 4x4 rigs. i was merely pointing out a strong point.

In the same thought, can your jeep regularly stand up to class 6 roads at 45mph? there are plenty of dumba$$'s around here that do it regularly in toyotas. (NOT ME)

High school kids who dont know how to drive will put a vehicle through much more stress than an experienced driver will. So suddenly, our "easy" trails turn into beating the everliving snot out of a truck. And toyotas hold up!

Also, the mud out here gets as deep and as difficult as anywhere. Commmon wheelin' here is old logging roads in the middle of a thunderstorm. Sure we don't have any big dry rocks, but its a different kind of difficult.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: NCBBA2358

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 03:36 PM

Cute, a narrow Hummer....
Posted By: NCBBA2358

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 03:58 PM

Quote
jeeps would be cool if they came with dana 60's and good flex

Geepers, no kidding?!?!? I bought a 1991 YJ new going on 14 years ago this summer. Within a year, I was snapping U-Joints and trying to get everything out of it that I could! Over time, we want to upgrade the heck out of our rigs to meet our new desires and expectations. I wouldn't mind having a Dana 60 setup, I wouldn't mind having good flex, I wouldn't mind having a lot of things for my Jeep, but they don't build them with all these things because of two factors. Cost and safety. The reason why MOPAR put the side mirrors on the doors is because of state laws requiring you to have two mounted mirrors on. The one on the windshield and one on either side or just on the sides. Safety, they try to keep your doors on by keeping you legal with the mirrors. Simple example. Another, The windshield to roll bar "bars".. They have break away bolts on the windshield frame and tamper-proof torx on the roll bar end. They come with the bumper things and even the tie-down point on the hood and the strap on the windshield frame to lower your windshield down, but they put those bolts on that are a pain to take out and if you break the bolts getting them off, you have a lot of work that you have to do.... This all a safety thing, sure you can take your windshield down like an old Jeep, but it isn't easy, MOPAR's safety attempts.
Cost. If you put a pair of Dana 60s or 70s on a Wrangler at the factory, how much of a price jump do you think there would be? I'd say a couple grand easy as you wouldn't have any reason to put them between the wheels when you have a 2.5 L engine in there? Yea, going to have to go with a 4.0 or better, then transmission, then transfer case, then beef up the frame even more to handle the torque....

So, there are obvious reasons why Jeeps don't come with V-10 engines and 47 inch tires.... Most of us live in places where there are laws that govern how high your bumper can be, or how far your tires can stick out. I'd bet that 1 out of 500 Jeep owners actually upgrade everything where 1 in 100 really want to and 1 in 10 think about it because it looks cool. If a Wrangler came with everything that the advanced Jeep owner would want in their rig, it would cost a fortune. If Jeep made them standard with all the gadgets and beefed up gear, they would only sell about 10% of their stock! Cost and safety....
Posted By: Scottie2113

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 07:05 PM

Wow, what a can of worms was opened here! In response to various claims that were made here against Monteros and how Jeep has it going on much better than Mitsubishi's Montero, I would like to start off by saying that I had the opportunity to drive and learn about both vehicles in question: My buddy’s Jeep Rubicon and my 1997 Montero. Now I don't have a fully loaded Montero with all the creature comforts like leather heated seats and what not, but I do have the factory locker and the '4x4 equipment' that comes with the Montero from factory. My brother has a fully loaded Montero, and I can therefore speak as if I had one of those as well. This will play into some of my points later on.

I would like to preface my comments by stating that since I actually drove both vehicles being compared in many responses here on this thread, my comments made here are not just bias slander. Instead, they are based on my personal experience with both rigs and facts about them. I am not here to say Monteros are the best just b/c I own one. I have reasons behind what I can say about both vehicles.

OK, now on to some substance here. I liked the Rubicon when I drove it. My buddy has a brand new one, and I drove it in various off road situations. I liked the really low gear range and the front and rear lockers from factory. Overall, it performed very well and seemed fun to drive. What I did not like about it was the cramped interior and almost non existent cargo room for trail/camping equipment. It also lacked the creature comforts that a fully loaded Montero provides in addition to off road capability.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aside from the recently released Rubicon and those concept 4x4’s you mention that are in a completely different category, Jeeps don't come with factory lockers. The Rubicon came out if I remember correctly sometime after 2000 correct? Well if Monteros were just meant for mall shopping, then why did Mitsubishi put lockers in them from the factory since 1992? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> That is almost a decade of Mitsubishi putting in factory lockers before Jeep thought it was a good idea and put them in the Rubicon. I would have to say stock vs. stock Monteros were much farther removed from the soccer mom SUV category than most jeeps that don't have factory equipment like that, and for a much longer time as well. Having said that, I would hardly go on to compare the Montero to other soccer mom SUV's like the Ford Explorer or Dodge Dakota that never had a factory locker............ever. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" />

I totally agree that different 4x4's perform better in different situations and terrain. It is a function of personal preferences in a vehicle as well as what type of wheeling you plan to do. As was pointed out, those $50k 4x4's that are big, bulky, and have huge engines are good for a purpose, but are in a completely different category than the Montero or Jeep Rubicon. To be honest, I wouldn't want a wide and bulky 4x4 that sucks down all your fuel by getting about 12 mpg. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" /> I like an efficient 4x4 vehicle that does what I need it to do using the least amount of fuel as possible extending my range of travel before having to look for a gas station. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />

Stock vs. Stock when faced with a choice between a Montero SR and a Jeep Rubicon, I would have to take the Montero and here is why:

Both have factory lockers and performed equally well off road, but with the Montero I get to do it wrapped in heated leather power seats with a huge moon roof and almost triple the room for passengers and cargo. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> Not to mention factory adjustable shocks, power windows, head light washers, power locks, and all the other creature comforts that not only make wheeling more comfortable, but also allow for a dual use when a more refined and luxurious vehicle is more fitting. (Such as street driving, long road trips, taking a girl out, fancy functions, etc.) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />

Another thing I would like to comment on is the 'trail rated' thing. You all poke fun at a punishing rally race that Mitsubishi must win just by luck all the time (Dakar Rally), but what the heck does ‘trail rated’ mean? I think it was a Laredo I saw on TV the other night that was 'trail rated' Do they even have factory lockers? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> I may be wrong, but I don't think they do. In my mind, for a vehicle to be trail rated and bragged about so much, I would hope that it would have a locker. I sense it as just a badge for marketing purposes. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" />

As for valleycat's comment, the Montero is much farther removed from the soccer mom family of SUV's than some of your Jeeps that (aside from your recent Rubicon) not only don't come with factory lockers, but don't even have factory tow hooks!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" /> I will never forget the ‘trail rated’ Laredo that stuck in the snow and had no place for me to hook my tow strap so my Montero could pull him out. Stock vs. Stock I think the Montero has it over those Jeeps.

And here is what I think about your narrow-minded comment on the Montero’s narrow stance:
A narrow profile allows me to fit in those tight spots on trails that many 'wide and bulky' 4x4's can't. Depends on what you are wheeling, but for 95%-99% of the time, I am not concerned with tipping and it doesn't seem to be an issue with other Montero owners either. To share some more personal experience, I took part in a convoy once that had several jeeps, two H2 Hummers, and various other vehicles. Needless to say, those wide bulky 4x4's bounced off trees that I easily passed through. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> We had to stop the convoy twice b/c of those huge H2 Hummers and their bulky nature. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" /> The Jeep Liberty in front of me had a few fender benders on some trees that I slipped right through after him. Even though having a slightly narrower width may slightly increase your chance of tipping, the benefits of easier maneuver through tight spots well out weighs the very few occasions that I am concerned with rolling.

Another claim on this thread described how Monteros aren't used in Colorado and Utah as commonly as Jeeps or other vehicles. Well buddy, that’s b/c they aren't that common in the United States at all!! Monteros aren't marketed as heavily in the US as your Jeeps, but that has nothing to do with how well built or capable they are. Why don't you check out how commonly the Pajero (same as Montero outside of US) is used in an abundance of other countries around the world and then tell me they aren't designed or used for tough terrain <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/nana.gif" alt="" />

I am not here writing this to be an <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> hole to you guys. I think Jeeps are good vehicles, especially the Rubicon, but you really shouldn't slander a vehicle (in this case the Montero) without first driving both vehicles in question and looking at it from both perspectives. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />

Lastly, you guys criticize about punctuation, how about spelling? Twice in this thread you guys didn't even know how to spell the make of the model of the vehicle that you were so blindly slandering. Montereo and Mitibishi are incorrect and just further display your lack of knowledge of the vehicle since you don't even know how to spell them. How can I take your words as credible when you can't even get the name right? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" />

I am all for getting all the facts and then passing judgments and making decisions. Here is an example of a mechanic that saw a Montero for the first time after having many other 4x4 vehicles and what he said about them. I wish I wrote down his name when I copied this quote from the Forum a long time ago, but here it is anyway:

"After spending a couple of days with this vehicle (ok, under this vehicle) I have decided that I want one. I've had many 4x4s (numerous Jeep XJs and a ZJ as well as a 600 lb/ft F250) and I believe that this Mitsu is the best built truck I've seen. Would anyone be interested in my 400 hp WRX so that I can buy a Montero?"

Just goes to show that one of your Jeep lovers actually figured it out for himself as we all should. To each his own, but when arguing and making claims, I like to stay with facts.


Hope this clears up any confusion you had about Monteros. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TOASTY

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 07:43 PM

not saying thet're the best just better than jeeps [Linked Image] so even the most carlike of monteros is more trucklike than any jeep
Posted By: LandRaider

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 08:16 PM

Stop Taunting the Jeep guys. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />

They will figure it out one day.

5k worn out wrangler with d35, and d30
500 dollar montero with cracked head.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: StockRaider

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 08:25 PM

I prefer Gen1 Monteros but those Gen2s look pretty good. Mine is stock and has gone past being trail rated... its lasted me for the past 2 1/2 years and ive done alot to it and I admit to beating it and it just pushes back. Ive seen 15 jeeps for ever 2 montero/raiders in the autowreckers. I would also like to address how someone said the dakar can be done in 2wd... I would like to see a unmodified jeep take on an unmodified Gen1 Montero and see who comes out on top.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 08:31 PM

I've owned a Montero and I gotta say, you gotta give them their dues. The rear axles are enourmous, and with an open diff. I was slogging through mud pits that a locked Commanche didn't make it through. I would not vote them as "Best 4x4" though because the IFS is too limiting in my opinion. I will say I was far, far more confident my Montero wouldn't break something than my XJ. Its nice to have a redicuously overbuilt frame/drivetrain under you than a unibody and a couple of questionable axles. Also, you will find in many South/Central Countries and Pacific countries Monteros dominate the market there for their outstanding capability, durability and reliability.

Overall I think a stripped down FJ80 would be the end all/do all of 4x4's. Bulletproof straight 6, beefy axles, f&r lockers.
Posted By: javven

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 08:31 PM

Factory locker isn't the end-all, do-all either. There've been plenty of times LSD has gotten me through problems that I'd have had to 'lock up' for, often only after getting stuck...

I fully invite you to park an 88 Jeep anything next to my Montero. Crawl underneath and speak your mind!

One of the shows on TNT just tore a Jeep down for a lift. I have to say I was -not- impressed with the parts they removed (stock Jeep). However, I really don't think they'd be a problem for a stock vehicle doing what a stock vehicle's capable of. Likewise, before going on and on about how something's designed - ask two questions. 1. How should it be different, and 2 will that difference negatively impact -anything- John Q Public SUV customer might want? Weight? Turning radius? Milage? On-Road ride quality?

It's nice to have an opinion but frankly automotive engineers are pretty darn smart. GENERALLY if something's a given way, it's that way for a very good reason. You don't think management lets R&D (or design) do whatever the heck they want, do you?
Posted By: grass13

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 08:51 PM

come on auto mon quit smacking this hornets nest with your big ol' stirrin spoon <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />...
after reading this post, couldnt help but notice all the jeep owners defending their rigs. admirable and understandable but, why is it that all these jeeps seem to be need modification to be trail ready? lockers, lift, blah, blah. i'll admit im a little bias, i dont like jeeps. as mr. blackstone mentioned, their popularity is unrivaled... especially here in ut, home of the mecca of wheelin'. but what i notice, being a native, is that a majority of jeep owners mouths write checks their <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> cant cash. they throw a couple of k into their rig, and think they can smoke anything on the trail. as for throwing the montero into the grocery getter catagory... sure i can pick up a couple hundie worth of food at alby's and throw it into the back of my rig while enjoying the luxury of my bouncy seats, go home put the stuff away and go pretty much wheel anyplace a moderatly modified jeep can go. but all in all... let it be said that my yota hilux will out wheel my monty in a majority of situations, unless it involves serious snow or mud its just too light. but when it comes to climbing, it will more than hold its own. that is unless i want to be comfortable, which my monty is. not picking a fight, thats already been done. but really now, comfort+utility+stock off road capability= montero. but since thats not the topic, best stock 4x of all time is either the old school yota land rover, or the early 70's cracker box bronco sport.
btw, jeepguy... leave your tow strap and bumper jack at home, i'll bring mine <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />.
Posted By: off-roader

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 09:28 PM

LOL, I guess I better chime in here. I promise I'll try to be as objective as possible.

What's the best? Heck that's a hard question to answer unless you qualify it a bit more. Best in what respect? What kind of off road activity are you looking at doing?

I'm as die hard a mitsu guy as any of these mitsu guys but I don't think you can say I'm a Mitsu only guy (As many of you have probably seen, I've posted questions bout which year/model cherokee to buy not too long ago).

I'll tell you some of the mitsu pro's & con's IMHO and let you debate how jeeps or other 4x4's are better.

Pro's
- hugh rear diff in V6 models, especially 3.5L SR's.
- 32's w/out lift or drivetrain changes
- 33's w/ longer rear spring no drivetrain changes
- 35's w/ 2" body lift no drivetrain changes but 5.29 R&P's suggested.
- Lockers? (SR's come w/ stock rear lockers) ARB available for both front and rear.
- LSD was an option for all years
- Stock AT Tranny, Oil coolers
- Plush ride on washboard roads
- W/ rocker protection & the minor upgrades for 33's an otherwise stock gen II SR can do the Con (before the jeep jamboree aka annual jeep highway project... sorry, couldn't resist) w/out problems.

Cons
- Aftermarket support is very limited.
- Current models are more soccer mom than I'd like to see due to limited tire size fitment w/out serious custom fab work.
- Nobody knows didly about the drivetrain and mitsu's not very forthcoming with details on who makes what (diff, axles, tranny, xcase, etc.)
- Lack of general knowledge about them pushes them deeper into the soccer mom category (actually I don't mind. Keeps virgin rigs available on ebay/auto-trader).
- Lack of trailworthness in the US allows us who do take them off road to discover their weaknesses.

Fixes needed before wheeling...
- Gen I rear trailer arm must be reinforced or breakage will ensue if you wheel it regularly.

Other issues...
- Valve guide seals need replacement every 60-100k (minor)
- Gen I rear Axle housings likely to break after/if training arms go. (minor if preventative actions taken w/ trailing arms)

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />

FWIW, I do think that jeep have been a MAJOR influencer in bringing the 4x4 market to where it's at today and I do like the rubicon although I'd rather pay $5k for a 95 SR monty and another 4-5k for upgrades (35's, 4.90's, 2.85xcase, front ARB, and armor) and spend the remaining 12k I'd save from not buying the rubicon on 4x4 trips. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />

P.S. I wouldn't mind something like the hurricane either.
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 09:33 PM

Good response, Scottie! I really enjoyed reading your post. I don't agree with your apraisal of Jeeps, and some of your points show an obvious lack of knowledge of the various Jeep models. By the way, there are no Jeep Laradeo models. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Scottie2113

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 09:40 PM

Well, for my own knowledge, what is the model that I am talking about? Is it the Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo? Something like that? If what I posted was wrong, please be specific and tell me the corrections. Also what you don't agree with and reasons why?
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 09:46 PM

Okay, Utah!

I go over to Moab frequently; if your Montero is as capable as you say, what trails in Moab have you done without a tow strap or without winching over an obstacle? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LandRaider

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 09:52 PM

The only thing I have to say to any jeeper that is talking smack (and it only happens on the web for some reason) is ask them how many times they have exploded u-joints in that d30... and how many axles in that d35?

I have dragged at least 5 jeeps off the trail in the past 2 years with exploded d35's and pulled as many of 30's apart, and put in axles on the trail. As far as I am concerned that sucks. Get some CTM's or get some dana44's or something. Get an adequate axle under there.


I can see this from both sides of the fence. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.


Drive what you like, make it perform like you like, enjoy your vehicle. Really simple.....

AND I will continue to pull the jeeps out with broken d35's and they will continue to pull me out with sheared PS pump's, and all my failures.


On the trail round here it is NOT segregated.
Posted By: javven

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 10:13 PM

I didn't know stock Jeeps came with 37" tires. I guess I need to go back to the dealership and ask them what's going on. Fred, which option package did you specify that included such a big tire?
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 10:23 PM

Landraider,

This has been fun! I've been home the last few days attempting to get over a flu/virus. I just re-read the posts, it was as I thought: the "mitsibitsi/moneroes/reiders" posters, except two individuals, were the ones "talking smack" about Jeeps! It's been interesting, I certainly will look a little closer the next time I see these foeign vehicles on our trails.

Man, you guys would make poor house-guests! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
I sincerely hope that "jeep-guys" don't go over to your mitsibitsi board and blast your mitsibitsi's! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Scottie2113

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 10:26 PM

OK, I stand corrected, I looked it up. Laredo is a trim level of the Grand Cherokee. But as for all my other actually important points about this particular vehicle, I believe they are still true. If not please tell me what is not correct in what I said.
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 10:28 PM

Javven,

It's an older offroad package; the brand is "incrementalism", and the model number is "Just Empty Every Pocket"! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: grass13

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 10:32 PM

well to completly honest, the trip to moab is pending... ive only been a mitsu owner for about a year now, never would have given them a second thought and probrably ended up with a trooper II before falling in love with mine. but in my own defense i have been to moab quite a few times with the yota... would carry the tow strap and bumper jack for gp. never needed them on any trails i went on, yes i have been on hells revenge but fins' is my favorite because it reminds me of a roller coaster <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/drunk.gif" alt="" /> and i like to take my wife with me to ariate the seat covers <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />. but moab isnt the only wheein' in utah... since ive had my monty, i have been nothing but impressed with its stock 4x'in capability... even back when it had bald 30" tires when i got it. the only mod's ive had to make is steppin up to 32x11.5xr15... not only for wheelin' but a little bit for ego and i didnt need a lift. as you know there are jeeps all over the place around here, and ive pulled out my fair share because the guy behind the wheel had eyes bigger than his stomach. a majority of my friends that have 4x's have jeeps, mainly because of the availability and theyre cheap to build up. back to utah wheelin, there are trails all over the place in no. utah... good ones. and then theres the west desert, lots of mud to play in if you catch it on a good day. areas that have comparable pucker factor as moab. and dont let it be said that i have not had the chance to get twisty and post up locally with the two wheel action <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />. there is no doubt in my mind that my monty will do more than hold its own. the top heavy preception, while looking at it... is not at all accurate, so i have no concern for when i do get to post up on slickrock. yes, i have been on my top... 3 times. once in my monty on the freeway, and loved it enough to do a body swap. not my best idea, but i came out of it with a sunroof <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />. all in all, while i think this is a spirited debate, i think the sheer concept of the best 4x of all time is redundant... after all its the driver that makes the difference <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />.
WAIT I TAKE IT ALL BACK!!! IVE HAD IT IN MOAB... ERRR... 200 TIMES AND WENT UP THE BACK SIDE OF THE LIONS BACK <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />!
edit:
p.s. im thinking the mitsu owners on our boards can hold their own, much like our rigs <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/nana.gif" alt="" />.
Posted By: javven

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 10:32 PM

Uh-huh.

Moab-schmo-ab. So it's a tough place to wheel. So it's pretty. So everyone here recognizes the name.

Me? I like wheeling places that no one's ever heard of. Funny that. Maybe Moab's tougher, maybe it's not. Thing is - someone already proved you could go there...
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 10:53 PM

Scottie,

One thing you probably have noticed, jeep-guys don't typically get very excited about dana35 axles, lockers, any another short-comings of our Wranglers someone may want to point out . . . we've been complaining about this stuff for years. It just doesn't matter! Most stock Jeeps are upgraded for the trails we intend to do; part of the fun is building the Jeep! That's why most Jeep-guys are called gear-heads. Jeep Wranglers are made for offroad, and are not very good on the highway. Most people understand that point. Most mitsu owners never see a difficult trail, but are totally brand loyal. Most Jeep owners never see a difficult trail, but are brand loyal! It just doesn't matter. Most guys that frequently go offroad are interested in all 4x4's, and brand loyality isn't very important.

But, to continue the game . . . <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Offroader wrote an interesting review of the "mitsibitsi":

Cons
- Aftermarket support is very limited.
- Current models are more soccer mom than I'd like to see due to limited tire size fitment w/out serious custom fab work.
- Nobody knows didly about the drivetrain and mitsu's not very forthcoming with details on who makes what (diff, axles, tranny, xcase, etc.)
- Lack of general knowledge about them pushes them deeper into the soccer mom category (actually I don't mind. Keeps virgin rigs available on ebay/auto-trader).
- Lack of trailworthness in the US allows us who do take them off road to discover their weaknesses.

Fixes needed before wheeling...
- Gen I rear trailer arm must be reinforced or breakage will ensue if you wheel it regularly.

Other issues...
- Valve guide seals need replacement every 60-100k (minor)
- Gen I rear Axle housings likely to break after/if training arms go. (minor if preventative actions taken w/ trailing arms)



FWIW, I do think that jeep have been a MAJOR influencer in bringing the 4x4 market to where it's at today and I do like the rubicon
Posted By: javven

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 11:09 PM

One of the problems ALL the SUV makers face (BTW - I do like the idea you can get a Lib with a diesel - just too bad it's a Lib) is that the 'design box' keeps getting smaller and smaller.

What I mean is - there's a set number of things an SUV must do. It must have such-and-such a tire. It must meet safety requirements. It must meet emissions requirements. It must be cheap enough so people will actually buy it (ALL SUV makers have flushed this down the toilet, IMVHO). It must hold the kids, the fishing poles, tow the boat, but GHASP if it rolls over when you spin the wheel at 55. Tire lawsuits, rollover lawsuits, increased requirements for airbags, impact beams, bumpers. I can't imagine it...

Oh, yeah. Then there's us. I'm pretty sure what we want on our rigs doesn't exactly make the engineers smile when they hear it. Crash bumper? Yep - when I crash into a tree I want my bumper to stop it COLD. Breaking the tree, while less acceptable is an option. Tires? Yeah - fitting 33" tires stock would be preferable. More tire, more clearance, more articulation on as small a wheelbase as possible (rock crawling). Removable doors, please (I do like that about the Jeep). FULL SIZE spare tire. Plenty of fuel. Tools. Hard-points I can hi-lift jack from. Rocker panel guards I can rail-slide my truck on. 200HP minimum. Transmission you can grind rocks in. Axles that won't care when I dump power to a wheel that's currently well-wedged between some rocks. All in a truck that's light enough that four or five big dudes can reasonably push it through stuff.
Posted By: NHMonty

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 11:13 PM

Quote
Quote
So, how can you judge the best 4x4 rig if your four wheeling experiences are at best, from the moderate trails of the NE?


Sir, i was not saying toyotas are the best 4x4 rigs. i was merely pointing out a strong point.
Also, the mud out here gets as deep and as difficult as anywhere. Commmon wheelin' here is old logging roads in the middle of a thunderstorm. Sure we don't have any big dry rocks, but its a different kind of difficult.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />


Sorry but I have to chime in here. I constantly hear about New England trails being so easy. Its so flat out here, theres no rocks, theres no super soft sand.
Well some of that is true. But we have our own difficulties. We have things called trees which sometimes grow so close together you scrape as you pass through them. These tress have roots, and roots in a mud hole(which do get deep out here) present just as much trouble as say a nice dry rock that is kinda in your way out west, but there is a way around that rock just for those people who cant make it. Out here once you get onto a trail up here in NH you are commited to see it through or else you are giving up your truck to the enviroment. Adn there usualyl is only one path becasue our trails are in between trees not in a desert.
New Hampshire is also known as the Granite state. For good reason, there is a lot of granite here. That means there are rocks in some places, and as EightyEight said we wheel a lot in rain. Granite in the rain is just as slick as any other rock when wet.
As for the Class 6 roads at 45. I dont drive a yota, being a montero guy, but I have done them at about 30 and it is incredibly violent and my montero held up just fine.
OH and just about every trail out here you absolutly cannot go off the path. IF you do you eitehr fall 100 feet into a river, sink 10 feet into a pond that drops off instatnly right next to the trail, or you end up falling onto rocks or trees. The trails out here are hard, not in a rockcrawling sort of way but in the way that no one wheels new vehicles out here for a reason.
As for best 4x4, out here toytas, and moneteros are the best. You do not want a small rig like a Rubicon on some of the trails with steep hill climbs. Not unless you like being inverted that is. Every 4x4 has its place. Monteros are constantly winning in Dakar, and doing some slower rock crawling just as easily as some jeeps that are constantly used for rock crawling. Zuks are coming up in the world and are Isuzus which im seeing more of a lot lately.
However in factory stock form, I would have to say toyotas or Monteros would do better than a jeep in most places. And that is an unbiased belief supplied by expierence.
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 11:14 PM

Utah, you joker!

Lion's back ain't nothing! Pritchet Canyon,Rusty Nail, Heldorado, . . . Utah, you ain't done Moab! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> That's my point, most of you guys don't take your monty's on difficult trails! You're pussys! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: javven

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 11:19 PM

I want to say something, but... instead I'll just give you that knowing smile and nod.
Posted By: off-roader

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 11:35 PM

Quote
But, to continue the game . . . <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Offroader wrote an interesting review of the "mitsibitsi":


Yes and I still say that for $ & ease build up a mitsu 95SR will blow away a jeep until you start looking at trails that are rated in the X ratings as I've been doing 4+ trails in my relatively near stock monty for the past few years (my upgrades include 33" tires, a 2" longer coil in back, and armor).

Trails I've run in Utah w/ my LWB Montero on 32's or 33's open & w/ a locker include Moab Rim Trail (personal favorite), Golden Spike, Poison Spider, Gold Bar, there are a couple more I don't remember. I avoid the easy trails there cause they put me to sleep unless the view is absolutely spectacular.

Only places I had trouble in Utah (2) was...
- going over the crack w/ an open dif, but hey who doesn't have a problem there w/ open difs. Not an issue w/ any traction aids including stock ones.

- then there was a pretty cool trail I was on from a couple of years back but I don't recall the trail name. Lloyd Swartz knows, as he was leading and it was just the two of us. I got stuck due to the length of the LWB (stuck on sliders).

Again, I'm not trying to slam jeeps here, but just putting mitsu's into proper perspective. If you REALLY want the "fun" of building up your a jeep for a few grand extra just to get on equal footing w/ a Mitsu w/ basic mods (wheels & tires), then have at it.

Me? I'd rather get out on the trail!
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/30/05 11:55 PM

NH, Been there, grew up there . . . if you think your trails in the NE are difficult, you need to get out more . . . I'm talking road trip here! Major road trip!

They've got clay out here in the west and sw that turns into a goo that will stick to the tires, and ball up on itself so it looks like your running brown snowmen for tires and wheels! You hit this goo climbing down switch backs on shelf-roads, and the goo-covered tires slide over the gooey trail surface on there own, as gravity attempts to suck your rig over the edge of the shelf-road. The worst part is cleaning your rig, the stuff takes months to get completely off the rig.

They've got trails out here where you have to winch over a waterfall, or up a verticle canyon wall.

They've got trails that require a wrangler to run at least 35" tires to allow sufficient differential clearance and/or breakover angle to clear the rocky trail obstacles to climb the forest covered mountain trail to get to the 13,000-plus alpine elevations!

They've got sand dunes to jump, rivers to cross, huge monoliths to crawl . . . truly, a four wheeler's paradise!

We have the same rules, stay on the trail, etc. I think Wyoming and Oklahoma are the few place where you can still go off trail in designated areas.
Posted By: NHMonty

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 12:12 AM

Where in NH did you grow up? And I was not at all saying the west doesnt have hard trails. I grew up out in southern California and we used to do many week long trips into the desert's. Ive been to just about every part of the continental USA except texas and the sorrounding states. so I know what most places have to offer.
Posted By: eightyeight

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 12:12 AM

First, Scottie2113, you rock!

I will now stoop to your level:

Mr. bitchstone, why are you such an angry person?
Calling us pussies up here in the NE is highly uncalled for. Theres this mountain trail we have called wynn mountain. right at the top there is this rock face, with BIG drops on either side. JEEPS go end over end there all day long. We do it. Toytas, monty's. jeeps do to, but the casualty rate is pretty high.



and dude, even i know what a jeep "laredo is" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

happy trails!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 12:12 AM

Offroader,

"If you REALLY want the "fun" of building up your a jeep for a few grand extra just to get on equal footing w/ a Mitsu w/ basic mods (wheels & tires), "

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Now,you know better! There ain't no way you can follow my Wrangler on extremely difficult trails! Nice try, though! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I like Moab Rim Trail, too! But, it's a stock-er trail! Gold Bar Rim is getting more difficult each year. The golden crack isn't much of an obstacle now that I am running 37" tires on the YJ. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 12:17 AM

Quote
They've got trails out here where you have to winch over a waterfall, or up a verticle canyon wall.


I want pics of that <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/zombie.gif" alt="" /> I just moved from Durango, where are these trails at?

And to align with the threads topic, I think the best 4x is the one in each of our garages. To each our own, we know our vehicles better than others and we know their capabilities better than others as well. It is the vehicle each of us have the confidence in to get us there is the best 4x. Moab is a great place to wheel, so is colorado, but each person has a different need in 4wheelin.

I recall in the 4x pic thread a gent from some snow country posted up and people didnt understand why he had something like 40's on a cherokee w/ minimal lift, he did it for basically flotation on the snow. It worked for how he wheels, not how I wheel. So like Fred says, Ill agree and add, get off your <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> and go wheel *****'s.
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 12:30 AM

88,

Darn, I didn't know I was *****, 88! I was just having a little fun with all the lemmings that have scampered over here from the mitsibitsi board! Forgive me, but it's been a while now since I was Downeast, But, I couldn't help myself knowing you're from NH. I honestly could hear your Elmer Fudd dilect while reading your post! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: eightyeight

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 12:34 AM

You should move back to NH come wheelin' with us!

sure your trucks bigger and better and more expensive than mine, but ill betcha we can manage to break it!

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 12:36 AM

Mod Man,

Calamity canyon in Montrose (however, I recently saw some pictures of that box canyon we had to winch over; it looks like that canyon wall has been worn down by continuous use, but I really couldn't tell for certain from the picture).
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 12:43 AM

88, you're okay!

I've kind of gotten over that need to break things while wheeling! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> There's too little time and too much to do here in the Rockies to even consider such a road trip! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: NumLock

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 12:52 AM

I own a montero and have driven many jeeps. Personally I feel that they are almost the same and most of the time it comes' down to the driver ability and taking the right line. When it comes to road manners and MPG the Monty takes it.


Personally I don't wheel my montero anymore.....because I got 2 404 unimogs. I would love to compare them to a jeep but it would not be fair to the jeep. The best 4x4 ever made is the unimog hands down. The keyword in that statement is “4x4”, meaning that it will rarely ever go on the road. Once one of the older unimogs hits the road it sucks but the new ones are way better. The reasons you can’t compare a unimog to a jeep is because the unimog is more like a tractor than a jeep, lower gears, tougher axles, bigger tires, and over all bigger. Yes jeeps can fit down more trails but unimogs make trails. The one thing I have seen first hand is jeepers and other rigs not willing to follow a unimog while it makes a new trail. Also the price of that concept will probably be close to the cost of a unimog. Last thing is that jeeps are fun for 2 to 3 people and can hold about 2 to 3 days worth of supplies. Unimogs are for 8 to 12 people and 6 to 9 days.


Stock to stock= unimog, it’s about the only high priced rig that will actually get you there.

www.unimogvideo.com


now that i have pissed off both sides i am going to stop posting.

:flame on:
Posted By: 87Montero

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 01:07 AM

I think MY 4x4 is the BEST because I own it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/baby.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Lloyd Swartz

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 01:28 AM

Quote
Utah, you joker!

Lion's back ain't nothing! Pritchet Canyon,Rusty Nail, Heldorado, . . . Utah, you ain't done Moab! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> That's my point, most of you guys don't take your monty's on difficult trails! You're pussys! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />


Overall Moab is priety easy wheeling, other then the above mentioned which I have done in my 90 Montero.(Except Upper Helldorado)I will challenge anyone here for amount of wheeling done in Utah though!)

I issue a challenge to any Jeep owner here, join the annual Sierra Challenge I sponsor. I now allow any make. Its August 5-13(wheeling days). We start at Barrett, then Rubicon, then Barker Meadow, followed by Fordyce, and trails in the gold lake region.(VERY FEW attempt this link of Sierra trail due to difficulty) If your Jeep is not broken, and is still running by the end of the trip, you can stand that many days in a Jeep and you can pack supplies for the entire trip, I will fill your tank up at the end. To make it interesting, I will insure atleast 1 Gen II Montero completely stock except for 33s and sliders shows up.(not hard because atleast one always comes) NOW, I would ask for a stock Jeep of that era for comparison, but it would take too long to drag it through <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
If you have not done Fordyce yet, your in for a treat. May not be wrecking ball, choke cherry, tobasco twister, trail 11 helicopter pad or Isham, but the shear length of these trails test overall indurance well.
Myself? The new Gen III Monteros are crappy and I will be going to an Xterra next with off-road package. Is that the best ever built? Doubt it, but then I dont have 75K for a G Wagon, nor will my family fit in a Rubicon, even stretched for 10days on the trail.....
Posted By: tomriddle

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 02:36 AM

sure, yall can come over here together and rag jeep while i'm working, but in another month when i'm wheelin' with the top and doors off and you're jamin' the a/c with the windows up we'll see whos having more fun!!! enjoy your imports <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: StockRaider

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 03:03 AM

we do enjoy our imports... and I don't use my A/C because opening the rear sliders and the other 2 windows works fine for me. and I don't have to tie down everything I don't want flying out of my rig when I am on the streets. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 03:15 AM

I'm seeing a lot of good facts and opinions (some very BAD opinions as well) being thrown around. What we need to do is come to a unanimous definition of what makes a 4x4 good, not opinions or mine is best because its mine or I wheel in it a lot, but what really what makes a good 4x4. Once we have a universal definition of what a good 4x4 is, we can start comparing the FACTS of what all our 4x4 have and make a conclusion on what is the best 4x4. I believe this is how most magazines or TV shows do it, no reason why we can't either.

On a side note, NO FURTHER PERSONAL ATTACKS WILL BE TOLLERATED. It's going to far when we call each their names. Come on Jeepers; let’s quell this rumor that we are obtuse ignoramuses.

Here is what I think makes a good 4x4.

1. It needs to have decent safety measure. IE roll bars/cage or metal top.

2. It needs to be easily modified. Everybody modifies their rig.

3. It needs to be able to accept big tires.

4. It needs a strong driveline to take big tires and the beating off-road.

5. It needs to flex well. I have seen trucks on 38's get stuck in ruts because it couldn't flex through them.

6. Comfort is a plus but not too much is needed on a 4x4. A good seat with nice padding, leather might be asking too much..

7. It needs enough horsepower to clime hills and get through mud, but it would be nice if it doesn't take a full tank of gas out on a long trail....

8. Good aftermarket parts availability is a must. As said before, we all modify. It sucks to have to fabricate everything.

What else is a must? What isn't a must?
Lets get this list built then show where our rigs shine.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 04:08 AM

Quote
....What we need to do is come to a unanimous definition of what makes a 4x4 good....


Good luck, because imo therein lies the problem to your solution.

Have you ever seen a statue of a committee in the park?

Usually it's just one man on a horse.

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: fishtaker

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 04:55 AM

I would put price in the mix as well. What good is the ultimate 4X4 if the average working man can't afford to buy it, or is too afraid to wheel it because of the monthly payments?

I personally love my Jeep. I have been through mud and sand in it and climbed a few rocks in it. I have done 4 hour road trips in it with wife, kids and gear for a weekend. Sure, it gets cramped, but like I tell the family, "It's a Jeep thing, get over it" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/nana.gif" alt="" />

It sure is nice to get off work and decide that it is a nice day so I think that I will drop the top. Gets plenty of looks from other employees.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 05:03 AM

as far as a "standardized platform that you can buy fully built and turn-key" how about the Scorpion MkIV? Foers Ibex? later model Nissan Patrol? Does the AEV Brute count? (i know it's a TJ with mods) I've even seen 80's vintage VW Syncro vans that, right out of the factory are remarkably versatile. The FZJ70 is totally rad.

Personally I'm stoked about anything versatile, even if it's not the most brutal rock crawler on earth.
Posted By: Fred Blackstone

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 05:05 AM

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> I guess the panty raid from the mitsu house is over! I think it was great fun! I think we also know it's all about brand loyality, we all can't seem to get passed this issue. I sincerely hope that no one took all this teasing seriously? If you did, we probably should talk about it . . . not!

I wish we had more comedians over here on the Jeep board to liven up things, now and then, the way the mitsu guys did this afternoon! ( I said comedians, not Canadians! But, then again, Canadians know how to party!) Someone mentioned rivalry this afternoon, I would hope this party resulted in some camaraderie between four wheelers that actually go offroad with there 4x4!

Lloyd, what a great idea to get a bunch of four wheelers to go four wheeling with you, the sierra challenge! What you're proposing is just the type of four wheeling I really like to do. But, I don't get that amount of time off.

Sunder, your post reminds me of a dad stopping a pillow fight between kids! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> No, I wouldn't say you are a wet blanket! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> Do you really believe anyone really wants to discuss "what is the best 4x4 ever built"? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> To make the analysis easy, I would suggest simply comparing various rigs against the Unimog, the stock rig that comes close should be the winner, just like in horseshoes, huh! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> It just doesn't matter! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> It's all about brand loyality, or what you purchased . . . this will never change! Wheel what you like, or wheel what you got! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: 4WDJOE

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 05:16 AM

I honestly couldn't say what the best 4wd is, I have only driven a handful of them so I have no first hand experience with rigs like Jeeps, Scouts, Bronco's, 'Yotas and such. I know what I like for personal reasons, but the wheeling I do has little to do with the wheeling done in say SoCal or the midwest or the south. My choice really works for me, and I'm sure the same goes for Jeepers and all other folks who wheel. I'm glad the folks I wheel with all run different rigs, it's fun to see what setup works for certain kinds of obstacles. I've been on both ends of a towstrap pulling and getting pulled by alot of different trucks. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />

Brand loyalty? leave that to the Chevy and Ford guys. Let's wheel!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 05:18 AM

1. Roll cage is nice if you need it. On road stability and low CG is more important IMO - A massive center diff, DANA 60 equiv rear axle, and 22 gallon tank helps on my end. Some poo poo the IFS on the Monty, but its pimp for the daily driving and easy to enhance for off the road

2. I suppose thats subjective, 33's+ are easy. Swappable parts between some of the imports. Of course the turbo swap from a Starion/Conquest is popular with the 4 banger Gen1 guys. Fortunately the Pajero (Montero overseas) is quite popular in Oz - the land where all great off the shelf mod parts come from. Anything is possible. There's a few members from Oz transforming thier Gen2 rigs to SA if that's your thing:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

3. How big? 33's can fit without doing anything. Again, anything is doable:
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

4. Try a Dana 60 equiv rear (9.5"). Lockable Center diff with 1.90:1 low range, 4.636 GR for diffs, and some kick <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> members down under who can hook you up even lower - much lower. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> ...and don't forget massive disk brakes all around - 12.5". Locking rear diff. Stock oversized tranny oil cooler helps too.

5. With modding the Jeep would have the Monty beat (I would hope). I havent had an issue yet however with my stock setup. (36" ground to hub center)

[Linked Image]

6. You are a Stoic <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />. I'll take my adjustable hydralic suspension seats - driver and pass, adjustable shocks, my fine leather, my 9 sq ft moon roof, fold flat seats for all 3 rows to make one giant sleeping quarters, adjustable tilting back seats for 2nd and 3rd row... and oh, my inclometer anyday <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> headlight washers are nice too in the snowy salty north.

7. 225HP. 228#ft @ 3K RPM. This engine rocks. Passes with class when your going fast smile. 33's and 6500lbs total weight with all my junk on it and it remains unphased. Gets about 17 mpg - when I find my vaccuum leak. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shiner.gif" alt="" /> 22 gallon tank.

8. I strongly disagree - if you are skilled and have the tools fabbing yourself is the only way to go. Yes you guys are spoiled with all your overpriced parts, but if I really want something I can get it from Oz. Unfortunately for us there is some very trick stuff out of Japan, but the language barrier and thier lack of interest in our market makes it a pipe dream.


That said I will give Jeep this - they know niche marketing. Mitsu knows jack squat. Sadly, the SWB Gen2 and Gen3, the turbodiesl, the cabrio, the Dakar version, never saw its way here to the US. You'd all be singin' another tune if they were! Me, I need to wheel AND carry 4x8 plywood with seven people in my ride. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

And one more thing - a definite advantage of owning something that is not all the rage in 4x4's -everything you see for my truck and goodies - $8K <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> - the truck doesnt own me - I own the truck <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LandRaider

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 05:25 AM

As far as ease of modifications... I lose.....

As for results for less $$$ bring it on. You won't find a much cheaper as capable vehicle

Do you really wheel on a d30 with 37's and an ARB?
Posted By: Scottie2113

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 06:15 AM

Bretwalda, I couldn't have said it better. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />

I have to come out there and pay you a visit sometime. You are like the Gen II king man. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: javven

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 06:22 AM

Moderator, I agree with you on the modification to a point.

Body lift is beneficial, inexpensive and very easy to do. With 2" of body lift ANY Gen1 or Gen2 will clear 33's. Donor shackles, bumper trimming and and cranked t'bars will, IIRC clear 35"s with offset wheels. IF you can do the work yourself this project costs almost NOTHING. Pieces-parts and the body lift MIGHT be $250. About $1000 will get 4 33's mounted on the offsets you're gonna require (don't need em with BOTH body and crank/shackle) or just a set of wider rims for the 12.5" wide tires.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 07:34 AM

alright well you might laugh but something has to be said about tops here... what Montero has a fully removable top.. in wich you can blast throught the mud all day then at the end of the day grab the power washer and hose down the entire thing inside and out?...
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 08:00 AM

Well you got us there - kinda - like I said Mitsu corporate sucks, if they didnt we'd have these here:

[Linked Image]

And these:

(Delica 4wd minivan on montero chassis and drivetrain)
[Linked Image]

And these:

(mitsu turbo diesel jeep)
[Linked Image]

And these:

(4 door mighty max)
[Linked Image]

And these:

(L200 full size pickup)
[Linked Image]

And these:
(Evolution/Dakar version)
[Linked Image]


they all exist in large numbers but...sigh...we got burned. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The monster moonroof has to count for something though <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cyclops.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: 52degrees

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 08:01 AM

I work at a Chevy dealership, so I can tell you without any doubt what ISN'T the best...

I really like my 90 LWB. I've also driven a few Cheeps. I like them too. I drove a cj-7 with the doors off and decided I want one. It would make a really great hunting rig.

But, alas. I am married with three boys. My monty is the only cheap, practical rig I could find that will carry me, my wife, 3 carseats loaded with squirmy blond children, a family sized three room tent, 5 sleeping bags, a camp stove, lanterns, 9 days worth of clothes for 5 people, food for a week, and still close the doors. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I almost bought a Cherokee sport before I found this rig. The Cherokee had problems and they wanted more money for it. Mine had (has) problems too, but I do all my own work, so it's cheap. The best part was that I can find no scrapes on the underside of my montero, the Cheep Cherokee was beat silly and $500 more.

My point of view is skewed by my experience working on many makes and the fact that all American made vehicles that I have seen are vastly inferior to their Asian counterparts <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Poor quality trickles up in auto manufacturing. Just look at Diamler Chrysler since they took over Chrysler. Mercedes Benz vehicles are falling fast in quality.

Cheeps are cool, I like them a lot. They just don't suit my needs right now.

And I also can't stand fixing the same problem multiple times because it was a stupid or cheap part from the factory. I know it must happen to Japanese cars and trucks too, but I haven't seen it. All American auto manufacturers have their heads shoved so far up their collective <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> that it'll take a major catastrophy to jar them loose. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I wish it weren't so. I would love to be able to buy American again.

Clay
Posted By: TOASTY

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 08:35 AM

i want all of those trucks <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> [Linked Image] [Linked Image] and i have seen bolth of these rigs get sprayed down from the inside
Posted By: Angelo

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 08:38 AM

Quote
I don't agree with your apraisal of Jeeps, and some of your points show an obvious lack of knowledge of the various Jeep models.


Someone made a good point earlier, just wanted to point it out <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/nana.gif" alt="" /> Its like saying, ".... I dont agree with your apraisal of Monteros, and some of your points show an obvious lack of knowledge of the various Montero models" Right? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />

Just wanted to say, there are both good Jeeps and good Monteros and other good 4x4s, but most of the time, the Jeep guys are the ones being the cocky ones and pumping up eachothers egos and laughing like lil school girls <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/sleeping.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I help out any 4x4 on the trails, big, small, ugly or even those teen kids taking out the "soccer mom" suv and gettin stuck. Its all the same to me.

For what my Montero was made for, it does a darn good job! Thats almost like saying, take a Jeep, build it up to be a long distance travel vehicle, or build it up and make it comfortable <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/notooth.gif" alt="" /> I think Monteros are closer to becoming a more capable 4x4 than a Jeep is to "loading 'er up FULL of luggage" kind of vehicle and taking a 3000K road trip. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" /> Thats like us seeing a Jeep on the highway- Imagine this in your head.... A Jeep full of, lets say... 2 suitcases, with barely enough room for the people inside it, and a group of Monteros drive by and start whispering to eachother and then laughing at the Jeep cause "jeeps dont belong on the highway" are you crazy!!! Jeeps on the Highway! those things arent "On-Road Rated!" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

So.... what i'm trying to say in a nut-shell, just cause you see a Montero is on the trail, doesnt mean we shouldnt be respected. Just would like to see credit where credit is due! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> True, it isnt the best 4x4, so i'm not claiming that. I dont think Anyone was realllllly claiming the Raider/ Montero was the best, but merely as a joke that got a few jeep guys excited. Those few guys heads grew enormously huge from their own ego-boost <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/oink.gif" alt="" /><img src="/forums/images/graemlins/oink.gif" alt="" /> and then....... the bashing, the defending and trash talkin begun! But in many ways, the Montero is better than your average built up Jeep and vise-versa (before anyone decides to attack me for that comment ):o) And maybe it was just the obvious lack of knowledge, but its ok, everyone makes mistakes. Everyone is happy with what they got. And yes, I would even like to have a Jeep one day built up. But that doesnt mean i'm gonna knock it til then. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />

But you know what they say about guys with big 4x4's? To make up for other things! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> (now now, dont get your panties in a wad (sp)- Just a lil joke ! )

Happy Wheelin,
Angelo
Posted By: Chris_J

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 01:15 PM

Wow What Did I DO HAHAHAHA
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 02:24 PM

i like those raiders with the top off.. im not one of your typical jeep guys either just for the record im kinda getting sick of having to replace every single one of these damn american made parts... but alas they are still american and i still have to support my country to some degree. my best friend has a montero that he just scooped up for real cheap.. and once he gets it legal we will be tracking together.. so im sure at times he will pull me out and at other times ill pull him out in all reality the best 4x4 is the one that each of us own why? becasue its ours because we work on it .. we put in the hours replacing ***** that goes wrong just to go out the next day on the trail and break it all over again... the whole its a jeep thing you wouldnt understand is over played... i saw a sticker on a fullsize f250 "its a fullsize thing you lil jeepsters wouldnt understand".. its all in what you own and what u like... as long as we can all agree on this... "low riders are for guys who cant get it up" lol wanna see a real s-10 with a set of hydrolics?
[Linked Image]
i bet thats not the kind of hydrolics u were thinknig about

oh yea and in refrence to the highway comment.. i couldnt agree more... the highway to me is merly the fastest route between trails.. give me a good ole dirt road anyday my jeep def. dosn't like the highway
Posted By: 4WDJOE

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 03:53 PM

Quote
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> I guess the panty raid from the mitsu house is over!


<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> That was a really good burn <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> Oh man we got whupped with that one line <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: javven

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 04:04 PM

The fact that there were panties for us to raid says something all on it's own smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 05:09 PM

Quote

Oh, yeah. Then there's us. I'm pretty sure what we want on our rigs doesn't exactly make the engineers smile when they hear it. Crash bumper? Yep - when I crash into a tree I want my bumper to stop it COLD. Breaking the tree, while less acceptable is an option. Tires? Yeah - fitting 33" tires stock would be preferable. More tire, more clearance, more articulation on as small a wheelbase as possible (rock crawling). Removable doors, please (I do like that about the Jeep). FULL SIZE spare tire. Plenty of fuel. Tools. Hard-points I can hi-lift jack from. Rocker panel guards I can rail-slide my truck on. 200HP minimum. Transmission you can grind rocks in. Axles that won't care when I dump power to a wheel that's currently well-wedged between some rocks. All in a truck that's light enough that four or five big dudes can reasonably push it through stuff.


AMEN! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If it were us, we'd design a base vehicle that you could custom match your options on. Yes Mr. Dealer, I'd like the hard-core offroad option with the big V8, 35" tires, 6" lift, etc...

I just wanted to start a discussion, I didn't realize it would turn in to such a brand war! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Angelo

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 05:11 PM


Quote
The fact that there were panties for us to raid says something all on it's own smile


:: In the best Kelso voice :: Burn ! ! ! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Best 4x4 ever built? - 03/31/05 06:21 PM

This thread is done! I tried to make it into a civilized conversation to find a definition of what a good 4x4 is, and then apply said definition to vehicles we think are good. INSTEAD it turned into a flaming spree. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" />

For those who did actually contribute in a positive way, thank you. To those who, EVEN AFTER BEING ASKED, were unable to pull it together and be civilized, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />
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