4x4Wire TrailTalk

D.O.A. or LC Engine

Posted By: Chunky

D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/18/06 11:55 PM

I'm looking at getting a long block engine replacement for my 87 22RE. Any opinions on which makes a better engine, which is a better value, etc...
Posted By: Rauch_Off_Road

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/19/06 12:14 AM

Why not do it yourself and save a ton of cash? Talk to ted at engnbldr.com.
Posted By: Chunky

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/19/06 12:22 AM

How do I know when Its time to retire the block?
Posted By: DRTDEVL

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/19/06 12:25 AM

Quote
How do I know when Its time to retire the block?


When there's a hole in it...
Posted By: Snowtoy

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/19/06 01:36 AM

If you are looking to upgrade your engine hp's, you can have the block bored out at your local machine shop. If there was a crack or something wrong with the block, they would be able to diagnos it for you. You can also have the shop work the heads over as well. Then order all of your parts through enginebuilders. This should save you quite a lot of money over ordering a complete engine from either DOA or LCE, their engines are nice but pricey.
Posted By: 1986xtracab

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/19/06 01:45 AM

Plus you'll feel a lot better knowing that you put the work in to, as opposed to buying it.
Posted By: Stevie

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/19/06 02:01 AM

I do it myself, and learn awhole lot. Yeah, the hard way sometimes, but that's life. DOA & LC have to charge what they do. We all would too if we had their overhead. Give it a go! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mrt.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Brian894X4

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/19/06 02:36 AM

Why not have EB build you a motor? Everyone seems to have happy with his products, his knowledge of how to hop up the 22R,RE and especially his customer service and last time I checked, his prices were more than reasonable.

http://www.engnbldr.com/
Posted By: dcg9381

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/19/06 04:35 PM

Quote
How do I know when Its time to retire the block?


Any qualified machine shop can tell you that.. Typically when you go over 93.5mm or .060, it's time to be concerned - not all blocks can be overbored beyond that.

I agree with the above - talk to engnbldr.. His shop may even do complete longblocks.

If you want more than 140 or 150 hp, look to DOA or LC.. Just understand what you're buying.
Posted By: bigStinger

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/20/06 01:45 AM

22re's are never gonna be all that great for performance, unfortunately. they came from a fork lift engine in the 70's, for pete's sake. From point A to point B is where they excel. They are excellent engines for what they are...sturdy, reliable, easy to work on, decent gas mileage...

that being said... depending on your know how, your opportunity cost, etc... do it yourself or have the pros do it. I started from learning how to change my oil to doing my timing chain to swapping diffs. I have put a lot of time, effort and worry into doing it myself. Just know that to diy is a commitment well beyond the one job... But since I got burnt bad by the shop on my timing chain and had to do it myself behind them, I' glad I know how to do some things.

just my $.02

oh and my 93 jeep is easier to work on than my 22re... sorry guys! lol <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: rednekbean

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/20/06 02:22 AM

Quote
oh and my 93 jeep is easier to work on than my 22re... sorry guys! lol


well yeah if its a bloody straight 6 than ofcourse. but you only need five wrenches, a hammer ,and a pry bar to fix just about anything on a yota.

unless you are looking for a massive increase in ponies just stick to head work, i get just under 150 ponies and around 165 torque with nothing but head work and tweaking with the ECU. that is with 4.10 gears as well. i know that 4.88 gears will give a 17-19% increase in torque. so just a though if your bottom end is still going strong.
Posted By: btn

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/20/06 08:05 AM

Not sure on the others, but avoid Jasper or ATK. My Jasper 22RE has burned well over 1 qt of 20W-50 every 1000 miles since I got it.
It's at about 15k miles now (well past any break-in period) and still doing it. Junk.

Does anyone know if EB builds and ships complete longblock 22res? Honestly, I have decided that I may just go straight Toyota factory if I replace this Jasper. Expensive as hell but the thing will be set up right with the right parts.
Posted By: bigStinger

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/20/06 12:01 PM

last I heard it wasn't like you could call up and order one. I think you had to beg him or Todd, his son to do it. I think shipping was an issue, so if you are west coast you are better off.
Posted By: yodta

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/21/06 02:36 AM

I've had great results out of my Jasper, and it's been in for just over 3 years now.

personally though, I'd steer clear of DOA. let's just say I had a less than stellar experience with Mr. Tim Jenkins.

my first choice would be EB if they can build you a longblock; they weren't doing them at the time I needed an engine, so I got the Jasper instead.

block geometry is very important. I think the comment above about a block being good until there's a hole in it was a joke, but you never know. I happen to know first hand that this is not the case. do a search on this board for quench and you'll pull up an old EB post.
Posted By: engnbldr

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/21/06 03:39 AM

Quote
last I heard it wasn't like you could call up and order one. I think you had to beg him or Todd, his son to do it. I think shipping was an issue, so if you are west coast you are better off.


>>>*That's pretty close, Tod is now in the shop by himself and I got just plain old. Shipping does cost, then the core problem is the other concern. We just can't buy them locally in enough volume to get anything going.

Tod built around 20 last year all told, most actually shipped him the cores for custom work.

*Dang that's expensive with the round trip shipping.

I did train and license one local engine rebuilder to supply our StreetRV long block, but they have the same shipping cost problems.

If I could just find a source of brand new blocks we can get something going. That is the bottleneck right now....*EB
Posted By: Pappy

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/21/06 04:27 AM

I have a 6+ year old DOA in my 4Runner. No problems, no complaints. Way better than what was in there originally. Motor purred right along this last summer towing a trialer with another motor (2FE from Land Cruiser) for Tim to work over. That was from New Mexico to NC. I also had a DOA head on another truck that I sold a few years ago. Tim knows what he's doing.

My first hand .02
Posted By: dcg9381

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/21/06 05:10 AM

My experience with DOA on the 22R-series has been good to this point. Any issues that have come up have been taken care of promptly.. Same deal with engnbldr.. Which vendor you go with depends on what your power goals are, how deep your wallet is, and basically what the net is after you've read all the back and forth.

I prefer DOA to LC for one main reason: with DOA I deal with the same guy. He knows what I'm working on, he knows what he sold me, and I can reach him if I have issues.
Posted By: yodta

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/21/06 03:13 PM

you guys appear to have had the exact opposite experience that I had with Tim. I spent $1100 on a racing head that was supposed to come in a new Toyota head casting and be beautifully ported & polished and have a 5 angle valve job and stainless steel valves and new cam with heavy duty springs.

he took my money promptly, but wouldn't return any phone calls. finally 3 weeks later the unit arrived. it shipped to me loosely packed in a plastic bag in a box full of styrofoam peanuts, and some of the edges were badly dinged up and flattened upon arrival. it had stock valves; they were not stainless steel, so I had to wonder about the rest of the build. I'm not sure that the 5 angle valve machine work was even performed.

during the whole process, I couldn't seem to catch him on the phone to answer any of my tuning questions or concerns, and he never returned my phone calls. bear in mind this is after cashing an $1100 check, so it wasn't like I was just bugging him; I was a client. I finally ended up with three vague four liner responses to concise but thorough email questions I'd sent him. he was no help in my tuning questions.

never again with DOA. I'm glad you guys had better luck. from that point on, I've only dealt with LC on the smaller stuff I've needed. anything bigger, and it would be EB. I mean jeez, you just can't shut Ted up sometimes! hahaha smile
Posted By: engnbldr

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/22/06 02:13 AM

anything bigger, and it would be EB. I mean jeez, you just can't shut Ted up sometimes! hahaha smile
_______________________________________________________

>>>*K...I heard that! What you talking about, I am a man of few words, I just repeats them a lot...*LOL**..

On the other subject, I have spoken with Tim from DOA on the phone and via email, I like him.

I think he is getting some bad raps, because my own experience with his workmanship is, I was impressed. I know ports, I understand airflow and the why and when of it, after 40 years of learning I did pick up a few pointers.

A man who runs a one man shop can be hard to reach via phone, time becomes a precious thing. The same is true for emails.

I have an advantage in that respect because I don't go anywhere near the shop unless I have to. My son Tod runs the engine shop, a one man operation because he got tired of doing things over. But that limits his time, too, so like many, he hates telephones. Were I not his Dad, he wouldn't answer it unless his hands were free, (and I have caught him with the phone off the hook more than once when he is in a critical fitting situation)

So I have time to chat, to visit, to answer emails. Combine that with me being one of those that can only sleep 5 hours each day, I have more time than most, so I am online often when the world around me is asleep.

I could just stop because I do have enough, but being online from 6 AM until 10 PM 7 days a week...simply keeps me alive and going. A trip to Reno means we send a computer, a database, a printer ahead to set up in the room. A trip to the coast means we take a system and printer, dialup there but online.

Very few shops, very few in business can do that. So folks should understand that when dealing with any business online or from a distance.

Still, I think some of the negative comments may be misunderstandings as I only have personal knowledge of just one, a 3VZE that I did not agree with the way the valves were set in. But even that is no big deal, I can't get my WIFE to agree with me most of the time.

Still, a bright young man came up with an idea to correct a geometry problem in a way I never even thought of.

Kudos for that, Kudos for trying. Which means I would LOVE to get Tim into a friendly pool game (just $5-$10 stuff...*giggle..) so I could pick his bright young brain for ideas.

Many engines get other modifications, it becomes impossible for a builder to predict results. I see posts about some of my own products mentioning little if any results, yet we documented the results on a bone stock workhorse engine over and over.

What can I say when this happens, other than try to satisfy the customer, try to help? That advantage I have of time pops up, and is likely the real difference.

It's all any of us can do, especially when the vehicle may well be many thousands of miles away and out of our control.

I happen to KNOW that Tim is an exceptional machinist, and has some good very ideas. It is always best to try an email or phone call, realize with a one man shop time matters, so responses will take longer than with some retired old coot like me that is sitting here waiting for the email to recycle.

Note that the truth is that very few online merchants can respond quickly, in fact, I will bet you will find that most larger websites don't even post an email or phone number.

Instead, you get a "contact us" form with all the little lines to fill in.

Time for some peace, Merry Christmas to all and a prosperous New Year!

Ted, Le', and Tod.
Posted By: yodta

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/22/06 02:42 AM

Well Ted, I'm humbled and somewhat embarrassed by your sticking up and vouching for Tim, because I have the utmost respect for you as a person (read: elder) and as an all too modest expert on the 22R. humbled more over given all the positive returns on his workmanship in this thread. heck, that's the reason I went to him in the first place! I am not the type to speak badly about an experience without sufficient reason. I understand that people like to complain about things just for the sake of making noise. rest assured this was not such a case. All I can say is a little communication goes a long way. One man shop or not, customer service is customer service.

yeah yeah, Peace, Love & Happiness to all.
Posted By: engnbldr

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/22/06 03:56 AM

>>>*Well, now I am humbled here, I saw the photos you sent me. I emailed my thoughts regards that.

I think that hopefully simply by error you didn't get what you paid for.

I was thinking that a one man shop just might have problems with timely communication, It wasn't my intent to doubt you since I also know you and you have my respect.

Yes, contact the gentleman and ask for a correction. The photos you sent are of no $1100 job I ever saw. I do know the ability is there, I have seen it.

Hopefully he will take care of you....*EB
Posted By: yodta

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/22/06 05:28 AM

eh, this all took place 4 or 5 years ago at this point and is water under the bridge.

and to clarify, the photos I sent were of the head fresh from a local machine shop after I'd pulled the head from the engine it was on at the time after losing compression in #4. the photos were more to show you the valves that were supposed to be oversized stainless pieces.

anyway, it's all water under the bridge now, and I don't mean to drag this out any further. I am but one negative in a seemingly longer list of satisfied DOA clients. these things happen sometimes, I understand that. I just like the opportunity to talk about it.

and actually, I have to make a correction. I've been paging through old photos and have to retract my statement about the porting. I don't know much about porting, but it does look quite clean. I will correct my original post. I am not sure why it's stuck in my mind for so long that I thought it sloppy. maybe there were a couple of runners on the exhaust side that looked less finished to me at the time, though I'm not even sure they're supposed to get the same attention as the intake.
Posted By: Dok

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/22/06 04:18 PM

Quote
Not sure on the others, but avoid Jasper or ATK. My Jasper 22RE has burned well over 1 qt of 20W-50 every 1000 miles since I got it.
It's at about 15k miles now (well past any break-in period) and still doing it. Junk.


I'll second staying away from Jasper, their warranty sux (especially for what their engines cost) and in my experience they are a PITA to deal with.

My Jasper 22re was ok for about 5k and then started leaking oil like crazy from the junction between the head and timing cover. I had to fight them to pay labor charges for the repair at their "preferred" shop (couldn't do it myself without voiding the warranty) and it took a month once was all said and done. It is now out of warranty and has about 20k on it and is burning 1qt of oil every 800mi or so <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" /> I called Jasper and their suggestion was to run high-mileage 20w-50 in it and that should "fix" the problem...

I'm planning to ditch the POS as soon as I get my Supra put together and will be rebuilding my extra 7mgte and dropping it in, hopefully in the next year or so.
Posted By: yodta

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/22/06 06:12 PM

wow Josh, I didn't know you were having trouble with yours. ha, and you were the other person I was gonna cite for having experience with Jasper!
Posted By: btn

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/23/06 06:22 AM

Quote
Quote
Not sure on the others, but avoid Jasper or ATK. My Jasper 22RE has burned well over 1 qt of 20W-50 every 1000 miles since I got it.
It's at about 15k miles now (well past any break-in period) and still doing it. Junk.


I'll second staying away from Jasper, their warranty sux (especially for what their engines cost) and in my experience they are a PITA to deal with.

My Jasper 22re was ok for about 5k and then started leaking oil like crazy from the junction between the head and timing cover. I had to fight them to pay labor charges for the repair at their "preferred" shop (couldn't do it myself without voiding the warranty) and it took a month once was all said and done. It is now out of warranty and has about 20k on it and is burning 1qt of oil every 800mi or so <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" /> I called Jasper and their suggestion was to run high-mileage 20w-50 in it and that should "fix" the problem...

I'm planning to ditch the POS as soon as I get my Supra put together and will be rebuilding my extra 7mgte and dropping it in, hopefully in the next year or so.


I am going to ditch mine too. I am going to do what I should have done in the first place and go straight factory on the head and block. Toyota doesnt sell replacement long block 22REs but they sell the finished block and head parts separately. It just strengthens my philosophy that straight Toyota OEM is the only way to do it right. Expensive, but you get what you pay for. I need to do it before Toyota stops selling them. Last of the great japanese straight 4s.
Posted By: 4WD22R

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/23/06 08:25 AM

Quote
Quote
Quote
Not sure on the others, but avoid Jasper or ATK. My Jasper 22RE has burned well over 1 qt of 20W-50 every 1000 miles since I got it.
It's at about 15k miles now (well past any break-in period) and still doing it. Junk.


I'll second staying away from Jasper, their warranty sux (especially for what their engines cost) and in my experience they are a PITA to deal with.

My Jasper 22re was ok for about 5k and then started leaking oil like crazy from the junction between the head and timing cover. I had to fight them to pay labor charges for the repair at their "preferred" shop (couldn't do it myself without voiding the warranty) and it took a month once was all said and done. It is now out of warranty and has about 20k on it and is burning 1qt of oil every 800mi or so <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" /> I called Jasper and their suggestion was to run high-mileage 20w-50 in it and that should "fix" the problem...

I'm planning to ditch the POS as soon as I get my Supra put together and will be rebuilding my extra 7mgte and dropping it in, hopefully in the next year or so.


I am going to ditch mine too. I am going to do what I should have done in the first place and go straight factory on the head and block. Toyota doesnt sell replacement long block 22REs but they sell the finished block and head parts separately. It just strengthens my philosophy that straight Toyota OEM is the only way to do it right. Expensive, but you get what you pay for. I need to do it before Toyota stops selling them. Last of the great japanese straight 4s.




Huh? Since when does Toyota sell blocks? Either I'm a little drunk, or you are mis-informed. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/drunk.gif" alt="" /> BTW isn't every 4banger a "straight 4" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Ganoid

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/23/06 10:48 AM

All of my bad experiences with DOA where a while back as well. I still have the E-mails from Tim (only got 2 for my $1200 loss) and everything seems to be early 2004. Not to try and defend him in any way but its possible he may indeed have his $hit together now as most of the problems I have seen have been in years past?
Posted By: Dok

Re: D.O.A. or LC Engine - 12/23/06 06:34 PM

Quote
wow Josh, I didn't know you were having trouble with yours. ha, and you were the other person I was gonna cite for having experience with Jasper!


Yea, I stopped complaining here because I got flamed the last time... The water pump they provided in thier install kit crapped out on me after about 10k as well.

The chrysler mechanic that ordered the engine for me (discount) also bought one of their 3vzes for his son's truck and they've had to tear into it a couple of times for timing belt related issues.

I understand that they are a mass mfg and will have issues, but when the only 2 options they provide when you have an issue are do it yourself and void the warranty, or pay partial labor for diagnostics and repair (they only cover $40/hr for labor, find me a shop that charges that...) the warranty is pretty much worthless unless your motor grenades itself (in which case you still have to cover the partial labor).

I didn't have time to do a rebuild myself (only 1 weekend to get it done), but in hindsight, I probably would have ordered a $500 shortblock from united engine and a head from EB. I could have built 2 engines this way and still saved money...
© 2022 4x4Wire TrailTalk