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Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail.

Posted By: Jay Ayala

Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/23/14 09:56 PM

What the heck??? It failed even before I started the engine. I went to put all the coolant in after having added the engine oil and started to hear a tapping noise once I topped off the radiator. "tap" "tap" "tap" "tap"... What the heck is that noise. I peek under the Raider to see that I had coolant dripping into a puddle on my oil catch pan. I was kind of lucky I put it under there, I just needed a place out of the way and it wasn't bugging me so I left the oil catch pan down there or else there would have been a big mess.

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In order to find out where this was coming from, I poured an additional 32 oz of fluid total into the radiator to see if I could locate it. I couldn't quite make out where it was coming from but I narrowed it down to somewhere above the water pump but below the intake plenum. I just spent some time disassembling the top end of the block to get a visual on where this could be leaking from. I think I have coolant leaking into my cylinders. I can see some coolant puddling up inside the intake manifold. WTF!@#$%^&*()_+ I know I was very diligent about all gaskets, and all torque specifications. I'm so frustrated I'm almost ready to give up on this project!!! I'm going to see if I can narrow this down and I'll take more photos of what I find. In the mean time I'll see if anyone else has any ideas or comments.

In these pictures you can see coolant inside the intake Manifold and around the perimeter of the Intake Manifold and Cylinder Heads. UUUGGGHHH!!!

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Posted By: fasteddy

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/23/14 10:27 PM

First, where did the water hit the ground? Under what?

Second, there is only two sources of water high enough to put it into the lower plenum. There's the intake air heater just after the TB, and the intake seal to the heads. The second is most likely, as the seal is hard to get right because of the angles.
Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/23/14 10:51 PM

Hi fasteddy,

Thanks for the quick reply. The coolant was leaking in two places when it hit the ground. Spot #1 was a heavy dripping leak from the rear most bottom point of the bell housing. Spot #2 was a slight leak drop-by-drop style from the bottom lip of the rounded portion on the front of the oil pan.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/23/14 11:20 PM

Remove the lower intake and look at the surface to see if it's badly etched. Clean it up and put a straight edge down each side to see if it's warped.

If it's warped or etched badly, you might be able to have it trued, but if it's bad, you'll need a replacement.

If everything looks OK, reinstall it using 2 coats of Permatex Copper Spray-A-Gasket on the head port flanges and on the lower intake flanges. Be sure to tighten bolts in a circular order as described in the FSM.

Frank
Posted By: TainterRacing

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/24/14 01:25 AM

Permatex Copper Spray-A-Gasket That's great stuff!!! That is a hard seal to get on there. Good Luck
Posted By: fasteddy

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/24/14 02:09 AM

Ditto the above. If you had the heads resurfaced, it affects the clearance and alignment on the lower intake. You're an autocad guy - you can visualize why. We used to have this trouble on small block Chebbies, and we used to have a lesser amount than the head cut taken off the manifold flange, calculated from the trig of the angles.

I'll add this to FrankR's comment (hi, Frank, long time no talk), I do the torque down in steps, tapping the intake with a dead blow in between steps to settle the intake into the vee.

While you have the lower intake off, check the oring on the water pump end of the steel pipe.
Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/24/14 03:58 AM

Quote
...I do the torque down in steps, tapping the intake with a dead blow in between steps to settle the intake into the vee.

While you have the lower intake off, check the oring on the water pump end of the steel pipe...


Deadblow, good idea fasteddy. I replaced that O-Ring with my full engine seal kit and put a little Permatex Right Stuff gasket maker on it for good measure.
Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/24/14 04:02 AM

I found the leak source. Evidently, the intake Manifold was not torqued down as I thought. It was so loose. I don't understand how I could have missed that. I cleared out all the coolant from the intake valves in the cylinder heads. I'll put all of this back together in the next couple of hours or so.

Feast your eyes.

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Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/24/14 06:38 AM

Quote
I replaced that O-Ring with my full engine seal kit and put a little Permatex Right Stuff gasket maker on it for good measure.


Here is a picture of that Permatex stuff I was talking about on that cooling pipe you mentioned. You can see it leaking out but you can't see the replaced O-ring inside.

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Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/24/14 06:54 AM

Okay, I fixed my coolant leak. Yes you guys were right. It was the intake manifold. Evidently I never torqued it down. I can't believe I missed it. However, I wanted extra assurance that I wasn't going to have this failure again. I decided to put a little Permatex Right Stuff Gasket Maker on both sides of the new intake Manifold gaskets to fill in any little imperfections that may exist between the mating surfaces and the gaskets.

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After applying the Right Stuff liberally and torquing down the Intake Manifold, I re-installed all the parts to the Raider. Except the Hood and the Skid plates. You never know what else you might run into until you get the vehicle running well. I also filled the coolant in the radiator and was anticipating more dripping but I found the source of the problem and fixed it after all. Whew!!! No leaks. After having seen the amount of fluid in the intake valves, I was afraid I had a lot of coolant slip into the oil pan. I was able to drain out a little oil using my fabulous new oil drain valve from Sure Drain. No coolant was found in the oil thankfully. Tomorrow I will start the Raider and try to get the timing set properly. Does anyone have any tips for me?

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Posted By: FrankR

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/24/14 12:18 PM

After the engine is fully warm, change the oil and filter.

Frank
Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/24/14 06:20 PM

Good tip FrankR.
Posted By: fasteddy

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/25/14 12:03 AM

You want to pull the plugs, remove the coil wire from the dizzy cap and ground it, and crank the motor until you see oil pressure on the gauge. This will do two things. One, you clear any water from the cylinders, and two, you fully prime the oil system so you don't have any dry berings at startup. Ditto the oil change after a few miles.
Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/25/14 05:01 AM

Quote
You want to pull the plugs, remove the coil wire from the dizzy cap and ground it, and crank the motor until you see oil pressure on the gauge. This will do two things. One, you clear any water from the cylinders, and two, you fully prime the oil system so you don't have any dry berings at startup. Ditto the oil change after a few miles.


fasteddy, thank you so much. You are the freaking MAN!!! Your tip on priming was exactly what I needed to get this thing running.

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Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/25/14 05:04 AM

SUCCESS!!!

I'm happy to report that after a few tips from the 4x4wire and the expedition portal posting forum I was able to finally get this engine overhaul completed. I fired up the engine a few minutes ago after following fasteddy's advice of priming the engine and it fired right up. I ran the engine for about 2 minutes before I turned it off. I was kind of forced to because all the coolant made its way into the exhaust and it kind of "fogged" me out of my garage. Tomorrow, I will let it come to full operating temperature, set the timing and put 2-10 miles on the rig. Then I will change the oil because it may be contaminated with a little coolant.

Once that is all done, I'll start the engine break in procedure with some daily driving and baby'ing the engine for the first oil change at 500 miles.
Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/25/14 05:05 AM

If all goes well, soon I'll be back in the Tillamook Mountains with the group.

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Posted By: fasteddy

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/25/14 05:45 AM

Use straight 30w oil. Do the ring seating procedure. Whe you first take it out, as soon as it's warmed up, do 4-5 (ninimun) pulls in 1st gear to redline and back to idle and repeat. Full throttle pulls. This loads the rings and gets the best seal breakin.
Posted By: JohnnyBfromPeoria

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/25/14 12:34 PM

Jay, do exactly what FE has described above. You only get one chance to seat the rings properly before that window of opportunity closes for good. The engine will be much tighter as a result of doing it right.

John B.
Posted By: Malykaii

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/25/14 05:38 PM

Third that... you only get like 20min to seal rings in before the cross hatch smoothies out. I idled my motor till it warmed up. Maybe 5 minutes. Made sir these enough coolant as soon as the thermostat opened. Quickly set the tps and timing and hit the road. Was in boost 10min after starting up.
Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/25/14 06:35 PM

Does anyone have a picture of the timing wire I need to ground for timing? fasteddy, has mentioned this bolt behind the brake booster on several other threads. I can't find it.
Posted By: fasteddy

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/25/14 11:18 PM

White wire, yellow stripe, two wire connector end with single wire, very near brake booster/MC. See page 8-17 of elec/contents section of 89 fsm for precise location diagram drawing. Below/dside of wiper motor.
Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/26/14 12:36 AM

Quote
Use straight 30w oil. Do the ring seating procedure. Whe you first take it out, as soon as it's warmed up, do 4-5 (ninimun) pulls in 1st gear to redline and back to idle and repeat. Full throttle pulls. This loads the rings and gets the best seal breakin.


WHOOO HOOO!!! Done!!! Engine was brought up to full operating temperature and ring seating procedure has been completed.

Now I gotta go put 10 miles on and change the engine oil and filter.

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Posted By: JohnnyBfromPeoria

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/26/14 02:11 PM

Sunny in Oregon at the end of February? Seems kind of rare.

John B.
Posted By: 87Montero

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/26/14 02:40 PM

Good Job!! Now time to lift those bumpers, already smile
Posted By: Bernoulli

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/26/14 05:10 PM

Quote
Sunny in Oregon at the end of February? Seems kind of rare.

John B.


Photoshop!
Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/26/14 05:30 PM

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Good Job!! Now time to lift those bumpers, already smile


HAHAHA!!! I've had that style since 2006. Don't you like it. LOL.

Seriously. I wish I had the welding skills to take care of this. I'll have to team up with someone who does. I'm sure this isn't much work but I don't have a cutting torch, or a welder (um... Yes I do.) I don't know how to weld. I wish I had the time to take a welding class at my local Community College.

Anyone want to help? I can return the favor in other ways.
Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/26/14 05:38 PM

Okay I put on my 10 miles after breaking in the engine. I also changed the oil immediately after those 10 miles. I drove around last night on surface roads and also took it out on the highway for a total of 30 additional miles on the new oil. I kept a close eye on the temperature and all other gauges. I'm trying to burn up the last of my gasoline from 2009. I'm at less than 1/8th a tank now with stabilizer in it.

What's next, fill it up with fresh gasoline and go to DEQ to see if I can pass the emissions test today. I really want to get my registration renewed. The last time I did that was in 2008 and the tags were good til 2010. Has anyone on this forum ever tried to get Smog tested this soon after an overhaul?

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Posted By: JohnnyBfromPeoria

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/26/14 10:46 PM

It "shouldn't" be a problem with passing emissions this soon after a rebuild, particularly since you followed FastEddy's procedures. It should be tight enough.

Incidentally, Jay, you will need to clear out your in-box so you can receive private messages. It's apparently full.

John B.
Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 02/27/14 09:09 PM

Hmm... Blue Smoke. I got an automatic DEQ failure yesterday. I didn't even get a chance to pull into the testing bay. I was pulled aside and out of line by a very condescending DEQ employee. In it he pointed out that I had blue smoke emitting from my tail pipe. I hadn't even noticed it until I was idling in line for about 15 minutes. The engine runs clean when I'm on the highway and on the surface roads but when I got home from DEQ last night, I let it idle in the drive way for about 10 minutes and Yes, you can easily see blue smoke.

I did some research on the matter and everything I've read has me thinking that it is the valve seals and valve guides on these new cylinder heads. You know I bought these back in 2009 from clear water cylinder heads but I never removed them out of the packaging until January of 2014. I wouldn't have imagined that could cause bad seals and guides but now I'm not so sure.

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Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 03/09/14 02:39 PM

The blue smoke has disappeared! That's interesting. I've put a little more than 75 miles on the Raider after the engine overhaul and suddenly out of nowhere the engine no longer has blue smoke after idling for 10 minutes or more. I think I can pass DEQ now. I'll be on a business trip this week and I'll try to take care of that this coming Thursday or Friday. I'll let you guys know what's up.

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Posted By: fasteddy

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 03/09/14 08:04 PM

You may have just had what I failed to relate in our phone conversation. You can't help but spill some gunk into the exhaust pipes as you tear down and rebuild. That has to burn off. Two, your rings may not have fully seated at first, so some oil makes it's way past and burns up. This is worst at high manifold vac during prolonged idling.

I'd let it idle for maybe 20min or so, and then blip the throttle and see if you still get a puff of smoke.
Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 03/10/14 04:10 PM

fasteddy, I think you are onto something there with the comment about oil passing down the manifold during tear down and the ring not having seated.

I'm in Las Vegas for the remainder of the week so I'll have some time either Thursday or Friday to go see if I can pass emission tests again at DEQ. I have some other projects in mind too like upgrading breaks and getting all my suspension inspected and done.
Posted By: Jay Ayala

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 03/26/14 12:33 AM

What's up my people?
  • I just wanted to update this thread really quickly.
  • Blue Smoke Came Back.
  • Practiced Valve Stem Seal replacement on Spare Head.
  • Performed the Valve Stem Seal Rope trick.
  • Serviced my Lash Adjusters.
  • Passed DEQ emission tests.
  • Renewed my registration.

Let me briefly tell you how I accomplished all this. So I think that my previous "No Smoking" reply above in this thread was just a fluke. The day after posting about the blue smoke disappearing it came back. After having spoken with both fasteddy and BigBlue, I decided I needed to perform the Valve Stem Seal job after all. I ordered a specialized tool while I was on a business trip and when I came home I realized that performing this job was something I didn't want to mess up.

Thankfully, I had a spare cylinder head that I had not returned as a core yet. This way I could practice how to use this tool before I go and mess anything up on my installed engine. I spent about 2 hours carefully performing the job and documenting it with some photographs. Refer to this thread for details. 1989 V6 - Valve Seal Replacement - Cylinder Head Removed

Now that I had some practice, I decided it was time to perform the "rope trick". I had a couple of challenges and at the end of the job, for some reason, I couldn't turn on the engine again when it was all said and done. However, once I figured out what I did wrong, it was a simple matter of spending just a little more time setting the timing. Refer to these two threads for details: 1989 V6 - Valve Seal Replacement - Rope Trick & 1989 V6 - No Compression

Once I got all that figured out and finished, I got some amazing results. I was able to go to DEQ and pass the emissions test easily and get my registration renewed. I'm excited now to work on some other projects with the rig and put some mileage on it. I'm looking forward to getting together with some of you fellow forum members in the future for some off-road fun.

Overall, I'm really satisfied even through all the challenges. I only had one accident with all the repairs on this rig in the past couple of months so I'm chalking it up to a win. I got a black eye some how while performing the "rope trick". I don't actually know what happened.

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Posted By: JohnnyBfromPeoria

Re: Oh CRAP!!!! 1989 3.0L Overhaul fail. - 03/26/14 08:54 AM

I love Chipotle.

Congratulations on passing the emissions test and getting the registration renewed.

John B.
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