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Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero

Posted By: danz91crx

Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/05/15 07:41 PM

I'm making a wish list for my 90 montero. I understand that some of the Gen 2 parts are considered upgrades. I don't have easy access to a gen 2. Best deal I've found on one was $600 for a non running SR thats got everything but the cat converter on it. Its like 2.5-3 hours from me and I would have to pay/find a way to get it home. Second "deal" on one was an hour farther, the guy would only sell parts not as a whole. If I wanted the rear end he wanted $300 for it and me to pull it <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/zombie.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I'd like to put gen 2 brakes on the front and I have read through a lot of info on here so far but just want to make sure I get a good option cost and performance wise. I noticed the 95 SR rotor is different then the 95 LS and found different part numbers for the calipers too. Is one option better then the other? Its said the bolts to mount the SR rotor need to be shorter then the Gen 1 is that true for the Gen 2 LS rotor as well?
Ill probably be ordering the parts online, I doubt napa would take a signal piston caliper for a core when buying a dual piston caliper..

Gen 2 UCAs
I know the ball joint design is better when it comes to changing them. If I don't go with much bigger tires then 235s and don't give it much lift is it still ok to put the gen 2 UCAs on? My concern is if I still be able to get a decent alignment.

Gen 2 Ideler arm
Can anyone comment on how the Gen 2 idler arm has held up on a Gen 1? Worth doing? Has the pitman arm from the gen 2 been used too?

My montero will be used for general commuting most of the time. Occasional towing and will take it on camping and hunting trips. Don't plain on doing any major off-roading.

Thanks for any help and advise in advance
Posted By: Mudraider

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/06/15 02:57 AM

That far away, u-haul rents p/u and tow dollies. Good alternative
Posted By: JohnnyBfromPeoria

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/06/15 03:25 AM

If you're just using it for commuting, camping, etc., my question is: Why bother?

John B.
Posted By: plh

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/06/15 04:01 AM

Quote
If you're just using it for commuting, camping, etc., my question is: Why bother?

John B.


I'd do the Gen 2 brake upgrade, but like JB mentions - skip the rest.
Posted By: JohnnyBfromPeoria

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/06/15 05:24 AM

Point taken.

John B.
Posted By: Oso

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/06/15 07:03 AM

Keep it stock as long as you can. Someday you'll have one of the few non-modified Gen 1s and it'll be worth a fortune to a collector!

My 2 cents: I worked my way thru the gen 2 upgrade list for the most part. I was rebuilding a Gen 1 with 225K miles and only upgraded the parts that were shot - which was all of them. ? I use it as both a daily driver and expedition rig. I also tend to wheel alone and go places I probably shouldn't when solo so i want my rig to be as capable as possible because i'm too lazy to walk 50-100 miles back to a road. That said, given your intended use I agree with the earlier comments to do the front brakes and call it a day. Bone stock Gen 1s are more than capable for how you intend to use your rig. I'd drive it 'til something wears out. At that point if the part is upgradeable then go for it. In the meantime enjoy your rig and save your time and money.

In case you're wondering how much the upgrades will improve your rig. here is a list of mine and the reasons why for reference.

1. Front brakes. Stopping power for 33's and steep hills
2. Upper control arms. a bit more travel but mostly easier to maintain.
3. Torsion bars - heavy bumper and big winch (combined weight of over 220 lbs) aren't so great for the stock suspension and the rig feels front heavy. bigger tbars provide a much better ride and road feel by compensating for extra weight, not to mention a stiffer ride off road. WIth a stock bumper the stock t-bars were plenty.
4. SR rear end. I did this mod as much for the disc brakes and bigger trailing arms as for the locking diff. And the coils are nice for a bit more lift. I've only HAD to lock it up twice but it was worth having when i needed it.
5. Steering box. the tighter turning radius has come in handy - especially when i was trying to pick my way up a goat trail in a Baja canyon. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shiner.gif" alt="" />
6. Idler and Pitman arms - Required for the gen 2 steering box.
7. Wheels.
8. Seats. Comfort and arm rests, period.

HTH <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: MI_Mitsu

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/06/15 04:24 PM

I'm pretty sure that the rear trailing arms are a direct swap too. Once read here that the Gen2 trailing arms were a bit beefier.

Also read here ages ago that Gen2 coil springs were desired and also a direct swap. In the Gen1's they were said to have provided a little extra lift (about 0.75 to 1.5" lift) without having to install an actual lift kit.
Posted By: danz91crx

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/06/15 06:48 PM

Thanks for the info guys. Welcome back Mi_Mitsu <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
I do plain to do some maintenance in the front end and getting an alignment done soon.
Any info on the different part number for SR and other gen 2 caliper? Would there just be different pistons lengths depending on the rotor thickness and they preform the same. Do you need to put in shorter bolts to mount the rotors?
Posted By: plh

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/06/15 07:12 PM

I used these Gen 2 SR calipers:

RAYBESTOS Part # RC10687
RAYBESTOS Part # RC10688

They come with the brackets.

I did use shorter bolts to mount the rotors to the hubs, I think it depends on the rotors... The SR versions are slightly thinner in the mounting flange to hub area being there is an ABS ring back there as stock in these as well that you won't be using in the Gen 1.

There has been a lot of discussion about SR being larger or not, the conclusion I believe is that there are 2 different Gen 2 rotors. LS/RS 276mm dia. x 24mm & SR 276mm x 27mm thick.
Posted By: heathdogg

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/06/15 08:19 PM

If you do calipers, do the matching rotors. I used the 3.0 GEN II stuff for convience since they were the easiest to get. When I did the upgrade, I used the old rotors. The first hard stop warped them good. Now I do matching rotors and calipers. Don't forget that you have to trim the backing plates to make them work and the little bracket on the caliper that holds the short metal line.
I had an issue with using new bolts on the hub was that I really couldn't get my socket in to hold the bolt. I used socket cap bolts instead.
Gen II rear springs do give a slight lift. I feel that they handle better with the newer Coils and it tows better too. I feel the Gen II UCA's make it ride better, but if you don't lift it or do bigger tires, I would leave it. My current Gen I has 265/75R16 and still has plenty of room.
Posted By: bodyswapped8789

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/07/15 05:51 AM

I did the gen 2 caliper swap, never had an issue with using gen 1 rotors. I agree gen 2 are better option but like I said never had an issue. My gen 1 rotors where brand new so never changed em. I also replaced the master cylinder for bigger diameter and the booster for the duel diaphram. Just a thought that you may want to also look into the booster and master. The other upgrade I felt was worth while was the rear springs and then just crank the gen1 torsion bars a bit to match, with a 2in body lift made my 33's fit well with enough room but not too much. The gen2 UCA's are nice for the upper ball joint, and allow half shaft angles to ease up a bit but I have had no issues with boots or joint issues. Not to high jack your thread but if you swap the torsion bars (gen1 for gen2) do you also need the LCA's or will the bars still bolt on the gen 1 LCA's?
Posted By: danz91crx

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/07/15 08:22 AM

Thanks for all the good info guys. Clears things up about the brakes.

Are the Gen 1 and 2 UCA shafts the same?
I have dealt with a few stubborn pressed in ball joints that only came out after using torches and a air chisel. The gen 1 UCAs are kind of a pain to have to remove to change the ball joint. (at least the side I've worked on to change the UCA shaft was) Would still like to put in the gen 2 UCAs eventually. The roads around here are full of pot holes and are killer on steering and suspension parts. Thats also why I thought it wouldn't hurt if when I change the ideler I go with the gen 2 as I thought it was suppose to hold up longer. I forgot to add the crappy road part into my first post..

What little off-roading I have done in the Montero so far made me think the ground clearance isn't bad. My drive train could use improving though. I'm still shopping around for some manual hubs and will get them sometime. The auto hubs work ok if you lock them in before you may loose traction and don't get stuck... Not liking the open diffs would like to put in LSD in the rear. Some of the places I go to hunt and camp have pretty uneven and washed out roads/trails at times. Better tires I'm sure would help too. Also sorry I left that out in the first post.

[EDIT] If anyone has an LSD diff I won't be able to get it till next month probably [/EDIT]
Posted By: plh

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/07/15 04:12 PM

Quote
I did the gen 2 caliper swap, never had an issue with using gen 1 rotors.


Just remember this is a documented safety issue. The Gen 1 V6 rotors start out 2mm thinner (22mm) than the RS/LS Gen 2 (24mm - minimum wear spec 22.4mm) so there is less material to wear, and they start out at under minimum spec. Once the pads and rotor get too thin, the pad can dislodge from the caliper and lock up the wheel. For sure this is not a recommended practice.

Probably won't happen new and might not happen until some period of use.
Posted By: Mudraider

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/07/15 04:57 PM

Quote
If you're just using it for commuting, camping, etc., my question is: Why bother?

John B.


I am so happy with the Gen 2 brakes in mine, I totally missed this sentence in the original post. Will go with the majority on this. You start facing a 35* slope, especially on 33"-35" tires, rear discs keeps the seat covers from going into your bunghole. But for commuting and general camping, leave it alone. Value to a collector down the road as a stock Gen 1 .... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: danz91crx

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/07/15 05:49 PM

Maybe I'll find another one to get rich off by the time Montero museums start to take off <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: heathdogg

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/07/15 09:31 PM

The bolts are the same spacing but the shafts are different. The GEN I are a metal screw-in type bushing for the arms while the GEN II's are real bushings. GEN II bushings come with the whole arm though from the dealer unless you order Poly Bushings from SuperPro out of Australia (or a authorized US dealer). Done that. Took 3 weeks.
Posted By: Struc

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/07/15 10:22 PM

I did a "How-to" post on the brake upgrade for a 2.6l SWB. If you replace the rotors, which I would recommend, most everything will be the same.

Montero Gen 1 brake upgrade

As far as turning in a single piston caliper - FWIW, they never even looked in the box when I returned mine. I half expected to be charged later, but never was. I turned in my single piston 2.6l SWB caliper, which isn't even close to what I bought. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

On the flip side, you can find cheap calipers with brackets on Amazon and RockAuto with no core return.
Posted By: plh

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/08/15 02:24 AM

Quote

On the flip side, you can find cheap calipers with brackets on Amazon and RockAuto with no core return.


The Raybestos part numbers I referenced earlier in this thread come loaded with pads and the bracket. $12.30 each on Amazon - no core - free 2 day shipping if you have Prime.
Posted By: KrzyDav

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/08/15 03:10 AM

Quote
Quote
I did the gen 2 caliper swap, never had an issue with using gen 1 rotors.


Just remember this is a documented safety issue. The Gen 1 V6 rotors start out 2mm thinner (22mm) than the Gen 2 (24mm - minimum wear spec 22.4mm) so there is less material

This is just a concern if you put SR calipers on L.S./Sport/V6 Gen 1 rotors.
I have L.S. calipers and original new V6 Gen 1 rotors. AllData , et.al. show that's all ok.
-----Just make sure you match up SR calipers with SR rotors if you do this modification.------
Posted By: danz91crx

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/08/15 08:01 AM

Thanks for the link to your how to Struc Nice job <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: plh

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/08/15 07:12 PM

Quote
Quote
Quote
I did the gen 2 caliper swap, never had an issue with using gen 1 rotors.


Just remember this is a documented safety issue. The Gen 1 V6 rotors start out 2mm thinner (22mm) than the Gen 2 RS/LS (24mm - minimum wear spec 22.4mm) so there is less material

This is just a concern if you put SR calipers on L.S./Sport/V6 Gen 1 rotors.
I have L.S. calipers and original new V6 Gen 1 rotors. AllData , et.al. show that's all ok.
-----Just make sure you match up SR calipers with SR rotors if you do this modification.------


I'd be sure super cautions about this. The Gen 2 rotors are the same diameter and thickness 24mm (new) RS/LS 27mm new SR and Gen 1 (V6) are 22mm (new). Best thing to do is verify the thickness of the replacement rotors and be sure they are matched to your caliper.

So if you are sticking any Gen 2 caliper on a Gen 1 rotor, you are putting them on a rotor that is under the minimum design wear limit for thickness.
Posted By: Mudraider

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/09/15 04:38 AM

All that ^^^^ being said, get the rotors along with everything else, you'll be good to go. Well, actually, good to stop.
Posted By: bodyswapped8789

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/10/15 05:56 AM

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
I did the gen 2 caliper swap, never had an issue with using gen 1 rotors.


Just remember this is a documented safety issue. The Gen 1 V6 rotors start out 2mm thinner (22mm) than the Gen 2 (24mm - minimum wear spec 22.4mm) so there is less material

This is just a concern if you put SR calipers on L.S./Sport/V6 Gen 1 rotors.
I have L.S. calipers and original new V6 Gen 1 rotors. AllData , et.al. show that's all ok.
-----Just make sure you match up SR calipers with SR rotors if you do this modification.------


I'd be sure super cautions about this. All the Gen 2 rotors are the same diameter and thickness 24mm (new) no matter if they are RS/LS/SR (or Montero Sport) and Gen 1 (V6) are 22mm (new). Best thing to do is verify the thickness of the replacement rotors and be sure they are 24mm.

So if you are sticking any Gen 2 caliper on a Gen 1 rotor, you are putting them on a rotor that is under the minimum design wear limit for thickness.

Has anybody actually seen pads dislodge? From what I have learned the reason for min spec is heat dissipation after min spec the rotor can't cool off so it warps causing peddle pulsation, Easy to notice and repair before safety issues. I have seen rotors worn all the way down to the vents and pads with no lining and partially worn backing plate, what usually happens is the peddle goes to the floor due to piston coming out of the bore and losing hydraulic pressure. Obviously this is an extremely rare and careless condition, but still pads where solid.
Posted By: Kevin C

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/10/15 04:36 PM

Rotor thickness

Brake info from a long time ago... And advice about mismatched parts.

Pad Slippage Yes it did happen.

Brake Dimensions and Calculations
Posted By: plh

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/10/15 06:54 PM

Just remembered that I still have the boxes for the calipers in my garage so I checked part numbers (fixed in the above post) and checked on Amazon today. Super ON SALE! Verified the rotor thickness with a caliper and the SR rotors do measure 27mm thick. Edited what I could in the above posts.
Posted By: haztoys

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/10/15 10:04 PM

Good info guys ...

I have a set of 95 SR and 99 Sport brakes ... The Sport brakes are the same braking just lighter weight parts ..I am going to go with the Sport brakes for the SWB and the driving I do ...

Gen2 truck door armrest bolt on to Gen1 Montero and are much nicer and bigger ...DSM car steering wheels give better arm room...A little smaller and flater...
Posted By: bodyswapped8789

Re: Gen 2 part Upgrades for Gen 1 Montero - 01/13/15 06:01 AM

Quote
Rotor thickness

Brake info from a long time ago... And advice about mismatched parts.

Pad Slippage Yes it did happen.

Point taken and I will be sourcing gen2 rotors, however I have worn a set of pads sence the swap, replaced them around 1.5mm without coming even close to pads coming out of the bracket. I machined the rotors and only need one pass the resurface so that indicates no warpage what so ever less then .002in off each side, this was done pretty recently. So I do agree the potential for disaster is there as rotors and pads get closer to discard. The difference may have been the brand new gen1 rotors before doing the gen2 calipers also driving habbits may play a factor. I tow rarely and when I do it's a small trailer with lighter loads. Sorry for the bad advise, just speaking from experience.

Brake Dimensions and Calculations
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