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Gen 1 starting issue

Posted By: Oso

Gen 1 starting issue - 04/01/21 05:28 AM

My rig is having intermittent issues when starting. I'll turn the key, hear a loud click in the pass foot well (MPI relay Im guessing) and the engine won't fire - or even turn. It's like a stone dead battery situation and does absolutely nothing. Sometimes it takes an excess of 15 attempts before it will fire up. Ive gotten used to this happening intermittently, and it will always start eventually. My daughter is finally old enough to go exploring with me to the far reaches of the middle of nowhere so when i have to try more than 5 times i pucker a bit, and she gives me a look that is far too much like her mother's glare. Lord Trunks provided me an elegant wiring solution that involved a relay in the striating circuit. It solved the issue for many years until an electrical fire took it out in 2019. Electrical is the bane of my existence and now i can't recall the exact fix and I know if i attempt it with out being sure I'll burn the damned thing to the ground. I've been trying to remember but all of those blows to the head in my younger days has taken a serious toll on my memory. I know we discussed this a decade ago but the search function is only bringing up things as old as 2016.

any ideas?

TIA
Posted By: sparkem

Re: Gen 1 starting issue - 04/01/21 09:19 AM

How old is the battery. I had a gen 2 3.0 in the past that was doing the same thing. The battery was an older Optima at the time. It turns out the cranking amps had dropped over the years. Once I got a new battery the problem went away.

Another thing to check; how clean or corroded are all the connections? Not just at the battery but also at the termination of the ground wires.
Posted By: Trailmonkey

Re: Gen 1 starting issue - 04/01/21 01:31 PM

Dont think its the same prob, but mine would click click like a bad battery/starter at random, turns out if the shifter (auto) is pushed hard into park it does this, lightly pull back and it turns over, not sure if its a linkage or wiring thing.

Hope you find the problem.
Posted By: Oso

Re: Gen 1 starting issue - 04/02/21 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by sparkem
How old is the battery. I had a gen 2 3.0 in the past that was doing the same thing. The battery was an older Optima at the time. It turns out the cranking amps had dropped over the years. Once I got a new battery the problem went away.

Another thing to check; how clean or corroded are all the connections? Not just at the battery but also at the termination of the ground wires.

battery is new, wiring is new - all marine grade tinned wire with extra grounds.


Originally Posted by Trailmonkey
Dont think its the same prob, but mine would click click like a bad battery/starter at random, turns out if the shifter (auto) is pushed hard into park it does this, lightly pull back and it turns over, not sure if its a linkage or wiring thing.

Hope you find the problem.


clean your neutral safety switch and it will start perfectly. sadly this is not the issue on mine.
Posted By: Trailmonkey

Re: Gen 1 starting issue - 04/02/21 07:29 PM

Yeah im dealing with wiring problems myself, takes a Japanese Electrical Engineer do know whats what on these things, well guess we get this when its a Japanese Electrical Engineer who wired it .
Haha watch American redneck pull hair out over this.. ha haha.
Posted By: sparkem

Re: Gen 1 starting issue - 04/03/21 01:00 AM

How old is the starter?
Posted By: MarkG

Re: Gen 1 starting issue - 04/03/21 03:17 AM

There are a number of connections between the ignition switch and the starter relay. Some folks had success by cleaning all the connections. Occasionally the resolution was to run a new wire from the ignition switch and the relay.
Posted By: Oso

Re: Gen 1 starting issue - 04/03/21 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by sparkem
How old is the starter?

starter is gem relatively fresh. maybe 10k since being rebuilt bu a local rockstar shop.



Originally Posted by MarkG
There are a number of connections between the ignition switch and the starter relay. Some folks had success by cleaning all the connections. Occasionally the resolution was to run a new wire from the ignition switch and the relay.


connections are cleaned. the wire run is what I'm thinking of. was it just a wire from the ignition switch to another relay and to the starter soleniod?

probably a stupid question but I f$&* ing hate electrical so much i have mental block when it comes to figuring this stuff out.
Posted By: Mudraider

Re: Gen 1 starting issue - 04/04/21 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Oso
Originally Posted by sparkem
How old is the starter?

starter is gem relatively fresh. maybe 10k since being rebuilt bu a local rockstar shop.



Originally Posted by MarkG
There are a number of connections between the ignition switch and the starter relay. Some folks had success by cleaning all the connections. Occasionally the resolution was to run a new wire from the ignition switch and the relay.


connections are cleaned. the wire run is what I'm thinking of. was it just a wire from the ignition switch to another relay and to the starter soleniod?

probably a stupid question but I f$&* ing hate electrical so much i have mental block when it comes to figuring this stuff out.


The extra wire operating a Ford solenoid is what you are talking about. There are a lot of different Ford solenoids. The part number from the original post would be handy. It all comes down to resistance over the length of the wire. This old fix, did you replace the whole harness? Removing the added in solenoid.
Posted By: Mudraider

Re: Gen 1 starting issue - 04/04/21 02:04 AM

Here is a great link explaining the whole changeover. I remember having done this to the original MudRaider, an 87 auto truck. Someone explained it at the time, maybe LordTrunks, I dunno, but it was basically resistance in that 18ga or 20ga wire running from the ignition switch, over to the starter. The power going thru wasn't enough to kick the started. It seemed like it took maybe a half hour to do. I'm pretty sure I used a 3 position solenoid. I took the original spade connector off the starter and connected it to the small ring terminal on the Ford solenoid.which was mounted on the wiper motor transmission cover right there by the battery. Then i ran a 14ga wire from one of the bid ring terminals on the solenoid, down to the starter, connecting it to the .250 spade terminal. The other big ring terminal i ran another 14ga wire from the battery to the other big ring terminal on the Ford solenoid. Here is a good article about it.

https://startersolenoid.net/how-to-wire-starter-relay/
Posted By: Oso

Re: Gen 1 starting issue - 04/05/21 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by Mudraider
Here is a great link explaining the whole changeover. I remember having done this to the original MudRaider, an 87 auto truck. Someone explained it at the time, maybe LordTrunks, I dunno, but it was basically resistance in that 18ga or 20ga wire running from the ignition switch, over to the starter. The power going thru wasn't enough to kick the started. It seemed like it took maybe a half hour to do. I'm pretty sure I used a 3 position solenoid. I took the original spade connector off the starter and connected it to the small ring terminal on the Ford solenoid.which was mounted on the wiper motor transmission cover right there by the battery. Then i ran a 14ga wire from one of the bid ring terminals on the solenoid, down to the starter, connecting it to the .250 spade terminal. The other big ring terminal i ran another 14ga wire from the battery to the other big ring terminal on the Ford solenoid. Here is a good article about it.


https://startersolenoid.net/how-to-wire-starter-relay/



Yup. that's it - wire gauge too small/too much resistance. Mudraider for the win! Thank you
Posted By: B_Line

Re: Gen 1 starting issue - 04/05/21 04:48 PM

Yea sounds like the dreaded "click, click, start".
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