4x4Wire TrailTalk

Red Pill Thread

Posted By: bretwalda

Red Pill Thread - 10/10/08 07:53 AM

A great little 45 min flick on the Federal Reserve.

From the makers of the film money masters seen here:

MoneyMasters movie - 3hrs.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/10/08 04:11 PM

Glenn Beck takes the red pill
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/10/08 04:29 PM

1ST Brigade now stationed on homela...- Consequence Management Response Force.

From the Army Times

Brief synopsis of the coming police state and past measures since reagan.
Posted By: ACES_HI

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/10/08 06:40 PM

Synopsis please for those of us at work who are blocked from your links. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: rapha

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/11/08 01:29 AM

Where do you guys find time to watch all these videos, read all the linked articles, or write those long posts? I would also like a synopsis as I rarely have that many hours to myself. (darn kids, though I have nothing on Stony) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I try to jump on the net for an hour or so a day to catch up on the news but usually can't dedicate any more than that.

Thanks,
Carlos
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/11/08 02:49 AM

Quote
Where do you guys find time to watch all these videos, read all the linked articles, or write those long posts? I would also like a synopsis as I rarely have that many hours to myself. (darn kids, though I have nothing on Stony) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I try to jump on the net for an hour or so a day to catch up on the news but usually can't dedicate any more than that.

Thanks,
Carlos


Ha ha. You just have to sleep less. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> Once those kids stop requiring so much TIME, the start requiring more MONEY...in my experience.

My oldest came home from Bowling Green this weekend...broken laptop, and needing new running shoes...I'd have rather spent a couple more hours with her than all that money. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I can't do vids that long either. Too hectic during the day, and I'm too tired later at night. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/12/08 07:19 AM

Quote
You just have to sleep less.


<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I can go on 4hrs if I can get a 12 min nap in somewhere. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/baby.gif" alt="" />

No TV, movies gone to or rented for years now - I find the real world much more entertaining <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For those wearied by the motion picture...

This fine red pill is an exact trace from google earth of the capital grounds(for a logo I did for a line of skateboards):

[Linked Image]

The handsome 'Molech' (Bohemian Club version) sported by Bush1 in a recent interview

[Linked Image]

Bohemian Grove Documentary - first 12 min or so worth watching
Posted By: Brian894X4

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/12/08 11:18 AM

I just type fast. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/12/08 02:46 PM

The owl. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cyclops.gif" alt="" />

YEa I remember when Alex Jones filmed the Cremation of Care . Creepy sh!t man.

SYnopsis> Grown men that run the world running around naked in the redwoods then attending mock child sacrifices in front of a 40 foot owl.....NOT EVEN KIDDING. The ritual is very old and used to have real human sacrifice which consisted of burning a young boy. THe dummy used in the Bohemian Grove ritual is small like that of a child.




And we are the crazy ones Phil. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/15/08 01:56 PM

What?.......Nobody has any comments on our current leaders worshipping ancient deities and acting out human sacrifice then claiming to be Christian?

I really dont believe in the devil but if he did want to decieve the masses he would assume the shape of a blue-eyed Christian and get into politics.
Posted By: Brian894X4

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/15/08 03:21 PM

Quote
What?.......Nobody has any comments on our current leaders worshipping ancient deities and acting out human sacrifice then claiming to be Christian?

I really dont believe in the devil but if he did want to decieve the masses he would assume the shape of a blue-eyed Christian and get into politics.


It's called denial. I saw that movie too and it opened my eyes in a big way. People aren't easily convinced by words alone. First they have to actually give a rats behind. Second, they have to be open to the idea that parts of this country and world have some faults and aren't all apple pie and flag waving patriotism and third, have to be open to the idea that people they support might actually have some faults, which then questions some of their own most basic ideologies.

A lot of Americans take confort and have security in the idea that they can "believe" in their party or their politicans and heros. Challenging that is not unlike challenging to a Christian that Jesus doesn't exist. You're not going to get very far.

Fortunately, they are now doing things so openly, especially in the last few weeks, all you have to do is point to the obvious. Unfortunately, they are probably so open today, because they no longer have anything left to fear from the rest of us. We're now too dumb as a mass society to stop them and even if we all collectively agree they have their evil hooks in our society, we are now powerless to stop them.

The bail out bill proved that once and forall. The American people were against it at least 9 to 1, yet they passed it anyway. It proves that they now can do whatever they want.
Posted By: grass13

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/16/08 01:13 AM

Quote
We're now too dumb as a mass society to stop them and even if we all collectively agree they have their evil hooks in our society, we are now powerless to stop them.

The bail out bill proved that once and forall. The American people were against it at least 9 to 1, yet they passed it anyway. It proves that they now can do whatever they want.

i think that the dependant masses are ignorant... its always about w, why? i still dont understand why blame is bieng shifted from the pilosi congress that is possibly the most corrupt in the history of our doomed nation. just out of curiosity, has anybody here read liberal facism by jonus goldberg?
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/16/08 04:29 AM

Quote
I really dont believe in the devil but if he did want to decieve the masses he would assume the shape of a blue-eyed Christian


Quote
For such are ...deceitful workers...And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. -2Corinthians 11


...here's a good one:

Right click>save file as mp3... gathered from the US National Archives.
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/18/08 05:18 PM

more complete...

Corithians
"For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will correspond to their actions."

This is my point. Beware of "Christians" that support greed and war ultimately causing Revelation. This was prophecized. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Real "Christians" are not in politics.


Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/19/08 04:31 AM

Things you'll never see on MSM news - resent arrest of Iraqi vets - the end is the kicker
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/19/08 05:25 AM

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> C'mon man.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/19/08 08:11 AM

??? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> One of them was trampled by cops on horseback and last I heard in serious condition.

pic

The group
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/20/08 03:03 AM

So you think just because they demanded to be let into the debate, they should have? If they had listened to the cops, they wouldn't have gotten hurt, no? Maybe I'm not being quite fair, but it seriously PISSES me off to see a guy with long hair wearing a uniform. I think it is disrespectful.

Maybe I missed some things...I had a hard time hearing the audio...between my old age, and the crappy speakers on my PC.
Posted By: Grasscat

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/20/08 04:59 AM

I'm with you Stony, that made no sense to me. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/20/08 06:42 AM

Well there's no question that the issues are censored. (They have to be because our 'two' candidates are both pro-Iraq war). These guys are fighting against that fact. I think they have every right to make they're statement without a cops horseshoe planted in their face. They've certainly earned it.

And I think the attitude and actions copped by these lawmen-unto-themselves should cause everyone concern - regardless of hair length <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Brian894X4

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/20/08 09:45 AM

While I firmly believe in one's right to protest, when will the opposition figure out that protesting in this way gets nowhere in this type of situation.

Protesting and civil disobedience has its place, when you are fighting an oppressive government, with at least significant, if not overwhelming, public support. This is not about an oppressive government. Its about convincing Americans to convince their government to change a foreign policy. The majority of Americans already do not support the war. Now you have to convince them to get active about it, with their representatives.

Every wacko left wing war protester has only succeeded in prolonging the war they seek to end, by turning the public off to their cause. I don't necessariliy support the war, but I'll be damned if I'm going to stand by and walk toe to toe with some mindless hippie, who hates this country and republicans our government...just because its the cool thing to do these days.

If they truly believed in their cause and were not just out for self glorification and anarchy as so many mindless protesters are, then they should be peacefully educating people through seeking to give media interviews, writing books, magazines and other media about their accounts and experiences and opinions. That is the only way they have a chance. Iraq war veterans could be a powerful message to people who are otherwise completely closed minded in their support of the war. But this is total strategic misuse of that message.

I don't agree with what the cops said and I do agree that it was wrong they should be dissiciplined for their unprofessionalism in their statements. Our rights are absolute. But what law or right was violated here? That we don't know. Because we weren't there and we don't know the whole situation. If someone is standing where they are not allowed..private or public property, they can be removed. There's no right to says you can be anywhere you want to be. If there is, then you won't mind me standing in your kitchen raiding your refrigerator.

Now, before anyone tries to say we live in a totalitarian society, they ought to go visit one first. American makes even Europe and Canada look like the Soviet Union. Yes, we are losing some of our rights due to fear and change of laws and there are both scared and evil cops that are acting outside the bounds of law, but there are provisions in place to fight against that. Cops can be sued for violation of civil rights. And are all the time. Billions in tax dollars are paid out in damages every year.

I know the tin foil hat movement is gravitating towards a very anti-police message, where the cops are the enemy...part of the global conspiracy movement. In the 1990s, it was the jack booted thugs and Janet Reno that was the enemy along with the black UN helicopters. Now it's the local cops. That's a huge mistake.

Cops in this country are anything but centric in their control, unlike most other countries. Rather than believing there is some central conspiracy to get all of our cops together and just start shooting and tazing people for no reason, it would be better to understand how police actually work in America and why they do the things they do.

America is an extremely violent country. And if any of you walked in a cops shoes, you'd be absolutely shocked at what cops have to see and do on a daily basis. Most of it hidden from public view. You would understand their actions more and what they have to put up with just to survive, while being restrained by more rights, laws and criminals protections than any other country affords, bar none.

We live in a unique society, where we have absolute rights, but humanity is absolutely evil and will take advantage of the rights we afford to the farthest degree they can. In the time of the founders, the society was strong in it's moral values and there was things that need not be addressed in the constitution and our rights. We live in a time where society has no moral values anymore and our rights have been expanded far beyond the founder's vision. To some degree, I fully agree with the expansion of those rights.

But we must always recognized the impossible position that we put our police in, in defending our security, while hampered by our absolute rights. And just thank God you aren't in that position.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/20/08 09:13 PM

I stand by my original point that you will never hear about Iraqi veterans being smashed by police horses or arrested for making a statement against the war on the MSM news - ever.

"Just start cuffin them up" - to not do so would be bad PR for the duopoly. Nothing new - look up the Bonus Army.

I've got nothing against anyone doing their job. But the mentality that certain paid vocations deserve the benefit of the doubt because we could never appreciate what they do is only heralding in the stasi in this case. Policing is a job - uphold and enforce the law. The negatives are compensated for and if they aren't agreeable one can find another vocation.

I've never heard one tin foiler ever state or write that there is some centrist conspiracy behind the increasing trend of police brutality and abuse of position. There certainly is an increasing morality split that trends toward nihilism and that trend applies to those wearing a badge as well. There is definitely increasing corporatism affecting these issues, and Posse Comitatus is now over.

So to NOT bring attention and condemnation and punishment for abuses of power is a huge mistake.

trampling vid @ 4:30
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/21/08 02:03 AM

Quote
Maybe I'm not being quite fair, but it seriously PISSES me off to see a guy with long hair wearing a uniform. I think it is disrespectful.
I dont share that ideal. The service speaks not the hair. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Tell this guy how his hair pisses you off. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
[Linked Image]

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: kewlynx

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/21/08 02:59 AM

I know several former Delta Force dudes who look a lot like him. Their 'toothpicks' will give you a nice clean shave too.
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/21/08 04:14 AM

No, not a problem with that dude. He wasn't wearing his full Class A uniform. If you're gonna wear the uniform, wear it right. An old field jacket is a different matter...go ahead and sport your goofy ass hairdo and 'stach. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/21/08 04:45 AM

So a retired Vet with long hair could'nt wear his class As? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I've known many old vets that have long hair and beards and I thought they could still wear class As if they wished. Is it an insult or something?

I know my dad never appreciated long hair. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Do you really despise tha "natural" look? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rodent.gif" alt="" /> I'm not busting your chops Stony just trying to think of a senario where it would be ok. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Grasscat

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/22/08 03:12 AM

Quote
So a retired Vet with long hair could'nt wear his class As?


Yes he could wear it, but he would not be to military code. If he were on active duty, what do you think would happen with that long hair?

He/they are degrading the uniform of our enlisted men and woman.

As a vet I think they are wrong. Some of the worlds people might/would think that our military is protesting.
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/22/08 03:38 AM

Grass said it nicely.
Posted By: kewlynx

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/22/08 03:46 AM

Probably did like I did with mine after I got out and set his gear on fire. I do not know ONE Vietnam vet with class A's in their closet, and we have a LOT of them up here.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/22/08 04:19 AM

Colin Powell: “There’s going to be ...n’t even know about right now.” (@2:45)

Biden: "Remember I said it sta..., to test the mettle of this guy."

By all means MSM - don't bother to ask WTF that's supposed to mean.
Posted By: Brian894X4

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/22/08 04:34 AM

Ya...I saw that too. Definately made me go... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />

I'm getting the feeling that if there really is a conspiracy and weird things happening, they just don't even feel the need to hide it anymore. After all, Paulson can now openly hand tax payer billions to his former employer and now the government is actually sponsering and encouraging banks to gobble up smaller ones...and we're all just standing around with our head up our stupid asses, wonder who's gonna play in the superbowl.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/22/08 04:43 AM

Well what do ya know (I didn't) January 21st would be the day after Bush leaves the Whitehouse.

Top world military officials meet in the boonies of NY - 10/20/08

Ain't that nice.
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/22/08 05:12 AM

Hey! I stayed there back in college!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/22/08 04:17 PM

Just released FOIA request - DOT transcripts of ATC on 9-11: Get it here (pdf)

Affirms the NORAD transcripts - both of which now completely blow the official timeline and placement of aircraft according to the official story.

Particularly with these new docs:

- Flight 11 being 15 miles west of JFK

- Flight 93 is reported over Hagerstown, Maryland, which is just outside of Camp David - southwest and much further along enroute to DC from its 'official' crash site in Shanksville. There was some other tv reports of it coming down at Camp David in addition to this one but I can't find them.

DOH!

Quote
Reuters: Prosecutor Timothy Stone told the six-member jury of U.S. military officers who will decide Hamdan's guilt or innocence that Hamdan had inside knowledge of the 2001 attacks on the United States because he overheard a conversation between bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri.

"If they hadn't shot down the fourth plane it would've hit the dome ," Stone, a Navy officer, said in his opening remarks.


Major Rick Gibney was the pilot that shot 'it' down. He even got a shiny medal.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/23/08 03:43 PM

Barry Jennings (Deputy Director of the NYC Housing Authority’s Emergency Services Department)

is dead (edit: wrong link fixed)

Quote
D. Avery: ...The whole Official Story, the whole reason that Building 7 collapsed allegedly, was because the North Tower fell onto it and caused damage.
And what people are going to say, is they're going to say "Barry was hit by debris from the North Tower."

Barry Jennings: "No. What happened was when we made it back to the 8th floor, as I told you earlier, both buildings were still standing because I looked one way, looked the other way..now there's nothing there.
When I got to the 6th floor there was an explosion that forced us back to the 8th floor.
Both buildings were still standing.
Keep in mind, I told you the fire department came..and ran.
They came twice.
Why?
Because building tower 1 fell and then tower 2 fell.
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/24/08 12:49 AM

Quote
Quote
So a retired Vet with long hair could'nt wear his class As?


Yes he could wear it, but he would not be to military code. If he were on active duty, what do you think would happen with that long hair?

He/they are degrading the uniform of our enlisted men and woman.

As a vet I think they are wrong. Some of the worlds people might/would think that our military is protesting.



I know active military cant have long hair....we are talking about folks who can have long hair(retired or ex)wearing class As. So if it only bothers you when active military wears class As with long hair then their is no issue because that does not happen.

Stony, I'm pretty sure you did'nt mean "active military" and the argument was altered to suit a point that was moot.....not exactly "well said". LOL
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/24/08 05:21 AM

Why would you wear the thing, and not wear it correctly? It's an absolute attempt to disrespect it. Don't wear it if you're not on board. I'd be tempted to take it off that boy...and see how tough he really is. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: kewlynx

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/24/08 05:52 AM

Well Stony, you'd be pissed off all the time around this Alaskan town. I'd be happy to drop you off at the Vet Center. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Get over it. These are the only guys the GW vets can relate to, and they are ALWAYS there. These vets are there for the younger troops. Can't beat camadarie, no matter the appearance.

It's **THEIR** gear, they've earned it as **draftees**, and not all of them have a wall they can hang a shadow box on. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/24/08 03:33 PM

So you're saying you've got a bunch of long hairs walking around in their dress uniform? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />

All of the men that I've known who really DID something in WWII or Vietnam, aren't into putting crap on a wall, or even talking about it...OR wearing their old uniforms all the time.
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/25/08 05:41 AM

Quote
So you're saying you've got a bunch of long hairs walking around in their dress uniform?


Dang Stony, when did you become so judgemental? Of all the things to not like someone about...and you pick hair???? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> One thing that I hold true to me as a Christian is appreciating anothers self expression(within reason)....To judge by such plasticity would be the devils device. Be careful Stony, sometimes it sounds like you have hate in your heart. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hey Stony, I consider you a friend and would cover your arse in a second but we have to be a little LESS AUTHORITARIAN to truley achieve divinity. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />......god said. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: kewlynx

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/25/08 08:36 AM

That Nam vet isn't wearing a dress uniform Stoney. Must not be very many vets in your area? We have a large Nam vet presence in Alaska. Lot of those boys who DID come home had a lot of hate in their face and moved up here to start their lives over. One guy I know from Blowing Rock, NC got drafted with 14 guys from his hometown, and only 4 came back.

Usually you'll see these guys in their gear like the gentleman depicted in this thread for events like Veteran's Day, rallies, and to get out with folks like the American Legion Riders.

You can ask these guys what unit they were in, and they'll tell you, and where they were. Their organization patches are still on their gear; sometimes I think when these guys don their stuff, they do it in honor of their fallen comrades, so we, who don't know better, don't forget them.

As we shouldn't; nor should we forsake this new generation of young people thrust into war. The only difference is that those guys were conscripted; we volunteered.

The travelling Vietnam Memorial Wall has been to Alaska twice. We read the names; we remember. I see misty eyes out in the crowd. I have seen my abovementioned friend's flashbacks and rants. The trauma and anger are very much there. Thankfully as the years pass, it has ruled him less. I've known him for about 12 years. My brother has killed people. It still bothers him, but he was one of the few who actively sought help, as did my next door neighbor, who was a sniper.

And do note I said some of these guys don't even HAVE a wall. About a third of our homeless population in Fairbanks is comprised of vets.

I also know a couple Korea/Nam vets who will say very little about their experience, esp Korea. Can't get squat out of my uncle about Korea. I do know we probably had more casualties in that war that died from starvation and exposure than combat, or dang close. Another uncle from WWII didn't say a lot, but he was up in Dutch Harbor before going onto the USS Wadleigh; historically saw a lot of action. His brother is an MIA off the coast of Papua New Guinea. I found the Missing Aircraft Report a couple years ago; one of our fellow moderators was in Manila, and got his name rubbed off the Tablets of the Missing at the War Cemetery at Ft. Bonifacio for my family.

We should not forget our fallen, nor those whose lives have been changed forever. They still fight that war in their heads in the form of PTSD.

These guys have paid the price; having long hair is NOTHING.

If anything, it's ROTC/JROTC and academy cadets out of uniform who get me honked off, and I let them know; esp the latter, being the taxpayer is footing the bill for their education and military commitment for over 10 years.

Dang Stoney...
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/26/08 05:07 AM

Jeeeeze you guys. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I was talking about the young punk in the video...no one else. We have tons of nam vets around here...like I said; never seen one in dress uniform. I'm not judging anyone, just saying I don't like it, and in my opinion looks disrespectful to the uniform, and the country.
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/26/08 05:29 AM

Quote
Jeeeeze you guys. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I was talking about the young punk in the video...no one else. We have tons of nam vets around here...like I said; never seen one in dress uniform. I'm not judging anyone, just saying I don't like it, and in my opinion looks disrespectful to the uniform, and the country.


Although I think judging someone by the length of their hair is shallow I respect you as a vet as well and really just wanted to know if retired or ex military could still wear their class As?
Posted By: kewlynx

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/28/08 01:27 AM

I know folks who wear their class A's to events like one of their kids getting promoted or VFW/Legion activities, so it's accepted for those things.

People are buried in their old A's if they express the wish to do so.
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/28/08 05:46 AM

I couldn't get mine on if I had to...it shrunk around the middle somehow. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I serverd active for 5 years, but never wore my Class A after graduation from AIT. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: kewlynx

Re: Red Pill Thread - 10/28/08 06:28 AM

Yah, the BDU's went in the garage sale after my 10 year inactive reserve commitment; A's went into some wool quilts then a bonfire. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Red Pill Thread - 11/06/08 04:07 AM

Ron Paul post election:

Part 1

Part2
Posted By: bretwalda

Obama's citizenship highly doubtful - 11/06/08 04:27 PM

Last link is the best.

WND

Forbes

More WND

Forgery examined
Posted By: Brown81CJ5

Re: Obama's citizenship highly doubtful - 11/06/08 05:48 PM

Obama needs to present to the US, verified, authentic proof that he was born in the US...him not letting his birth certificate info be released to the public seems very suspicious to me....how can we trust this douche to do what is right for OUR country, if he can't be honest with us about ANYTHING.

Oh, what dark, dark times lie ahead. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: kewlynx

Re: Obama's citizenship highly doubtful - 11/07/08 02:25 AM

Wouldn't have matter who landed the prize in my book; we're screwed either way. That should be his criteria before gettting the 'football'
Posted By: DRTDEVL

Re: Red Pill Thread - 11/07/08 05:25 AM

Quote
Although I think judging someone by the length of their hair is shallow I respect you as a vet as well and really just wanted to know if retired or ex military could still wear their class As?


My internet sucks here in Iraq, so I can't dig it up for you. The short answer is YES for Retirees, and MAYBE for vets.

You want the scoop? Dig up a copy of AR 670-1 online. The answer lies within. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Obama's citizenship highly doubtful - 11/07/08 10:14 AM

Not real if you don't read it <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Brown81CJ5

Re: Obama's citizenship highly doubtful - 11/07/08 04:39 PM

Quote
Wouldn't have matter who landed the prize in my book; we're screwed either way


I agree completely.

By the way...did anyone see the new South Park last night? ROFLMAO <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: Obama's citizenship highly doubtful - 11/07/08 04:43 PM

Quote
Quote
Wouldn't have matter who landed the prize in my book; we're screwed either way


I agree completely.

By the way...did anyone see the new South Park last night? ROFLMAO <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />


That WAS funny. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

FBI fights order for deposition of Oklahoma City bombing conspirator, death-row inmate - 11/10/08 07:37 AM

FBI fights order for deposition of ...irator, death-row inmate - I wonder why
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: FBI fights order for deposition of Oklahoma City bombing conspirator, death-row inmate - 11/10/08 05:27 PM

Oh Look- the FBI's appealing the order. Why can't these crazy ppl just leave well enough alone and let the FBI 'do their job'?

I'm willing to bet that Nichols bites it before he ever gets his taped deposition.

Here's how it works - for OK City, for WTC bombing '93, for London 7/7, and 9/11, etc...patsies. This article was written in 95.
Posted By: bretwalda

Worth a listen - 11/17/08 07:45 PM

http://www.infowars.com/infowars.asx For Windows Media Player

http://www.infowars.com/stream.pls For iTunes and other media players

Listening info and troubleshooting
Posted By: LandRaider

Re: Worth a listen - 11/17/08 10:01 PM

[quote] http://www.infowars.com/infowars.asx For Windows Media Player


<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> awesome.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Worth a listen - 11/18/08 05:13 AM

The show is live from 11 to 3 central and then it loops the whole show continuously until the next live show.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Worth a listen - 11/20/08 05:26 PM

"Plunge Protection Team is a c... at coincidence theorist dolts on MSNBC.

then @4:54 - he admits its real <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

The PPT as reported by the Washington Post in 97
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Worth a read - 11/23/08 07:30 AM

A good read
Posted By: bretwalda

Time magazine questions Bin Laden 'alive' conspiracy theory - 11/23/08 07:56 AM

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1859354,00.html?iid=tsmodule
Posted By: bretwalda

The eons old modus operandi - 11/24/08 06:42 PM

State sponsored terror in Kosovo from EU ogre Germany

"The German secret service, the BND, is notorious for infiltrating extremist groups and using them for their own political ends.

In March 2003 amidst a highly publicized attempt to ban the activities of a German Neo-Nazi political party, the trial collapsed in court after it emerged that the far-right National Democratic Party (NPD) was full of German intelligence officers occupying top ranking positions, including the publisher of the party’s newspaper, who were all secretly on the government’s payroll for decades.

“The case has been stalled for more than a year after it emerged that the government’s case rested, at least partly, on a network of informants in the National Democratic Party. This raised the question of whether any acted as provocateurs,” reported the Scotsman.

As many as 30 leading figures in the party were exposed as paid agents and informers for the BND."
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 11/27/08 09:07 PM

Translated from Urdu dailies - Mossad connections to India bombings
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 11/28/08 12:05 AM

So, while the rest of the world's intelligence agencies are trying to figure out who is behind the attack, this rag not only knows who did it, but that they were sponsored by the MOSSAD?

I guess they told the terrorists to attack the Jewish center in Mumbai just to throw investigators off the MOSSAD's trail, eh?

That's so clever......... : <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If I were you, I'd be expecting another visit from the MOSSAD guys - this time at home. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 11/28/08 08:59 AM

Did the shooting not begin from within the only Jewish dwelling in Mumbai? Was not the first person dead - the Mumbai security chief Karkare, investigating (and arresting) leaders aligned with a Hindu para-org responsible for past bombings whom have published photos of themselve meeting with Israeli ex and current MOSSAD. From the opposite angle (SIMI) - let's see what the former editor of India's biggest newspaper (one of the biggest in the world - bigger than the NYT) had to say about them: "

Coincidence right Frank? <img...story]Undoubtably a long history of such


Quote
If I were you, I'd be expecting another visit from the MOSSAD guys - this time at home.


That's really not funny. But instead of getting huffy I'll attempt yet again to engage you...

Part 1 of 4

George Washington Bridge 9-11

"Our purpose was to document the event"

Police Transmissions

Part 5 of 5 - Transcript of Police radios toward the bottom

...and we aren't even scratching the surface.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 11/28/08 09:11 AM

Payload nukes were no coincidental 'mistake'.

Wayne Madsen is former NSA.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 11/28/08 12:38 PM

From the Global Research Centre website:

Quote
In addition to the Global Research website, the Centre is involved in book publishing,


Quote
During the invasion of Iraq (March-April 2003), Global Research published, on a daily basis, independent reports from the Middle East, which provided an alternative to the news emanating from the "embedded" journalists reporting from the war theater.


Quote
Disclaimer

The views expressed in Global Research articles are the sole responsibility of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect those of the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG). The Centre for Research on Globalization will not be held responsible or liable for any inaccurate or incorrect statements contained in Global Research articles.


Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 11/28/08 06:21 PM

Quote
"It would be premature in view of the unfolding tragedy in Mumbai and the corresponding investigation to reach any hard-and-fast conclusions on who may be responsible for the attacks, but some of what we're seeing is reminiscent of past terrorist operations undertaken by groups such as Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed," a U.S. counterterrorism official said on condition of anonymity. The two groups mentioned by the official are Pakistani militants linked to al-Qaida who have fought Indian troops in Kashmir.


MSNBC

Quote
India's cities are no strangers to indiscriminate terror attacks. Such attacks have occurred regularly, and with steadily increasing frequency, in recent years.


BBC

Quote
"This is a new, horrific milestone in the global jihad," said Bruce Riedel, a former South Asia analyst for the CIA and National Security Council and author of the book "The Search for Al Qaeda." "No indigenous Indian group has this level of capability. The goal is to damage the symbol of India's economic renaissance, undermine investor confidence and provoke an India-Pakistani crisis."

Several analysts and officials said the attacks bore the hallmarks of Lashkar-i-Taiba and Jaish-i-Muhammad, two networks of Muslim extremists from Pakistan that have targeted India before. Jaish-i-Muhammad was blamed for an attack on the Indian Parliament in 2001.

'Army of the Pious'
Both groups have carried out a long campaign of violence in the disputed territory of Kashmir, which India and Pakistan have fought over for six decades. The roots of the long-running conflict are religious: A majority of India's population is Hindu, while most Pakistanis are Muslim.

A U.S. counterterrorism official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said Lashkar-i-Taiba, which means "Army of the Pious," and Jaish-i-Muhammad, or "Soldiers of Muhammad," are "the thing people are starting to look at. But I can't caution enough to treat it as a theory, a working assumption. It's still too early for hard and fast" conclusions.

"What the Indians have in their favor," the official added, "is that they've got some of these guys. It seems logical that they can expect to work their way back reasonably quickly." Indian officials said several gunmen were captured.

In its Friday editions, the newspaper the Hindu reported that at least three of the suspects held by police were members of Lashkar-i-Taiba and that the assailants had arrived in Mumbai on a ship from Karachi, Pakistan.


Did Mumbai Attackers Have Foreign Help

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/01/08 02:52 AM

Quote
From the Global Research Centre website:

Quote
In addition to the Global Research website, the Centre is involved in book publishing,


Quote
During the invasion of Iraq (March-April 2003), Global Research published, on a daily basis, independent reports from the Middle East, which provided an alternative to the news emanating from the "embedded" journalists reporting from the war theater.


Quote
Disclaimer

The views expressed in Global Research articles are the sole responsibility of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect those of the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG). The Centre for Research on Globalization will not be held responsible or liable for any inaccurate or incorrect statements contained in Global Research articles.


Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />


Uhhh - so?
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/01/08 04:05 AM

The problem with relying on the big media and/or 'officialdom' for the final say in your reality:

Education Dept. paid commentator to promote law

Military Says It Paid Iraq Papers for News

U.S. Paid 10 Journalists for Anti-Castro Reports

US government faked Bush news reports

U.S. Military Covertly Pays to Run Stories in Iraqi Press

Government paid $1.62B for media, GAO says

When U.S. troops go to war, `image maker John Rendon seldom far behind.

Ron Paul barred from debates ... overheard

The White House Stages Its 'Daily S...house live-in/fake reporter Jeff Gannon)

Fake FEMA News Conference Ends Organizer's Bid for New Job at Office of DNI


... The big 5 (Viacom bought CBS)and what they own.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/01/08 01:17 PM

Uhhh - so a reasonable fellow might wonder - not accuse, mind you... but wonder - based on their stated raison d'etre if they are in the business of finding TRUTH.... or if they're in the business of creating controversy by finding authors who are willing to present an alternative view for the purpose of creating controversy so books can be sold to conspiracy theorists.

How's that for a conspiracy theory? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/02/08 04:29 AM

Are you saying Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilley, Cronkite, Rather, Brokaw, every President, every war general, every forune 500 exec, etc has never written a book?

I would venture to conspire a hunch <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> that not all of the books associated with global research or any investigative journalism site COMBINED would compare to ONE book's sales of any of the forementioned.

Hmmmm...
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/02/08 12:50 PM

Quote
I would venture to conspire a hunch that not all of the books associated with global research or any investigative journalism site COMBINED would compare to ONE book's sales of any of the forementioned.


Perhaps because not many folks buy into the story line.... or that the story line isn't considered significant.

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/02/08 06:15 PM

Or perhaps the storyline is controlled or suppressed. Let's call it the Oprah Book Club effect...or the American Idol finalist effect. I.E. - A nobody dufus in the grand scheme of reality - then a blessing by a MUTLIBILLION dollar corporation and one is instantly relevant, full of insight, and worthy of your respect and trust (not to mention rich)? Are you telling me Frank that you think Limbaugh speaks exactly whats on his mind with no consideration to what his $300 MILLION corporate sponsorship wants him to say?

I'm not hypothesizing - I've talked to the reporters. When I asked them - "where's this story?" "why was there no followup on this?" Answer the first time: "HLS said 'no more'" The other time: "the execs in chicago killed it".

Although heck - a whole week of the minuscule around Anna Nicole Smith's death is absolutely significant.

But back to the original issue Frank that YOU created - are we to believe what MSM says in light of the fact that book sales are integral to their business and personalities?
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/02/08 07:15 PM

Phil, I don't believe much of anything I hear or read anymore - at least not as it's written or said. These days a grain of truth seems to lead to too much embellishment and conjecture no matter who is involved or what view is presented.

So, I suppose I'm saying it's great to think for yourself, but not take either side too much for gospel. At the same time, you can't look for conspiracy around every corner and under every story line. Much of it just doesn't wash.

And no, I don't think all of Rush's nonsense is newsworthy or even accurate in his conclusions based on a thread of truth. You've never heard me singing his praise.

But none of that makes it right to justify bad behavior by comparing it to other bad behavior.

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/02/08 11:05 PM

What bad behavior Frank? Do you really think a nuclear warhead can be accidentally loaded onto THE WING of a bomber? Do you really believe that coincidence plays in at such a fantastic level? People risked their necks and jobs to stop it and leak it out - they are military heroes.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/03/08 03:51 AM

Quote
What bad behavior Frank?


Ummm - for starters - justification of Russian (aka South Ossetian) behavior by comparison to US behavior during the Bay of Pigs.

Quote
Do you really think a nuclear warhead can be accidentally loaded onto THE WING of a bomber? Do you really believe that coincidence plays in at such a fantastic level? People risked their necks and jobs to stop it and leak it out - they are military heroes.


Where in the world did that come in? Either I must have missed the opening scene - or - you're trying to change the subject..... again.

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/04/08 08:35 PM

I think we're getting our multiple arguments mixed up...

I'm on to more red pills:

Leaked memos reveal Obama's AG involvement in OKC murder cover up
Posted By: bretwalda

Former Pakistani ISI chief - Mumbai and 9-11 = Inside Job - CNN - 12/08/08 06:23 PM

Link
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Former Pakistani ISI chief - Mumbai and 9-11 = Inside Job - CNN - 12/08/08 07:55 PM

Well, that proves it.



<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Former Pakistani ISI chief - Mumbai and 9-11 = Inside Job - CNN - 12/09/08 09:56 AM

That wasn't the point.

But how does a coincidence theorist explain Mukhtar Ahmed, a “counterinsurgency police officer" for the Indian government being arrested for illegally buying mobile phone cards used by the Mumbai gunmen?

You can't get a more botched false flag than this one. Police on total stand down as they watch these guys - from protective cover mind you -tearing up the crowd. 1200 commandoes vs. 12 gunmen...for 60hrs? Why was the anti-terror chief one of the first to go with a bullet to the back of his head? Two Paki ships and a dingy sloshing around city limits while India gets an intelligence warning of the attack? Where the hell did these guys get and stage the ammo for 60hrs of shoot-em-up?

The problem is, the concerned majority in Pakistan got off their duff and did something - They took to the streets and scared Mushareff poopless, even after his groupies popped off Bhuto they kept on truckin. The citizens deposed the USA funded (BILLION$) dictator and democratically appointed their own leader. A big no-no within the world of over-arching globalist agendas. So what do the hawks still have? The ISI . CIA orchestrated and funded, as it was on 9-11-01 when they wired $200K to Atta a few days before, and the ISI chief broke bread in D.C. with Sen. Bob Grahm, Armitage, and Tenet while the planes were plowing through WTC.

So while the Paki leadership is telling us (where you can find it) they condemn this act and have it in for the ISI themselves - the globalists are screaming the more palpable and generalized mantra, 'Pakistan - git em!' Cuz they don't need ISI - ISI is already theirs. They need destabilization.

And this little scam is falling short - especially in India were folks are a little more geo-politically astute. I think Powell's cryptics are still worthy of consideration.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/09/08 08:04 PM

Financial Times takes the red pill
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/13/08 05:54 AM

9-11 Victims families challenge Gitmo tortured confessions
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/13/08 07:14 AM

Bloomberg - Fed Refuses to Disclose...central bank is accepting as collateral.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/13/08 12:23 PM

There's nothing new in the way the Fed treats disclosure. The reason they've never disclosed the identity of the parties they lend to is to avoid rumors of financial trouble that could lead to a run on the institution that receives the loan.

What IS new is the amount of money that they're throwing at current problems and the level of risk taken. Some of it would likely be considered reckless by prior standards.

It's a real question if transparency would be a good thing so folks have oversight - or if the oversight would lead to pure panic and trigger a further collapse.

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/16/08 10:54 PM

You make the call:

Light pole at the Pentagon on 9-11 :

[Linked Image]


Same pole close up from the back:
[Linked Image]

Look at the base.





A pic of pole bases used in the area:
[Linked Image]


hmm.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/17/08 12:12 AM

Yeah - I know somebody who knows somebody who said he saw somebody torching the base of that pole just before the plane flew into the Pentagon.

I think he chopped down the pole so the plane wouldn't get knocked off course.

Obviously it's an inside job. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Phil, for goodness sakes - the pole base ripped apart at the weakest point.

Frank
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/17/08 01:49 AM

I hit a pole base like that in front of our school(the pole had been removed), and it broke off exactly like the one in the pic. Made a heck of a racket, and shot about 10 feet across the lot.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/17/08 02:52 AM

Most of those poles are designed to snap off at the base so drivers that hit them won't be killed:

Quote
Section 3: Breakaway Light Poles
Anchor: #CHDDCGCC
Frangibility Requirement
The FHWA adopted Section 7 of the 1985 AASHTO publication entitled “Standard Specifications for Structural Supports for Highway Signs, Luminaires, and Traffic Signals” for implementation beginning in July 1990. This section requires more stringent breakaway characteristics. TxDOT’s previous design of roadway illumination assemblies (based on a 1975 AASHTO specification) does not meet these requirements.

Breakaway light poles rely on frangible transformer bases to provide the breakaway feature. The 1985 AASHTO specification provides for a maximum change in momentum of a 1800 pound car to break the pole away. The 1975 AASHTO specification provided for a similar change in momentum except that the test vehicle weighed 2,250 pounds.

Anchor: #i1000249
Structural Requirement
While providing the necessary frangibility, the base must also be structurally adequate to support the illumination pole for design wind speeds. Transformer bases meeting the ’85 AASHTO specification may not adequately support some 50 foot steel poles, notably those designed to meet the ’75 AASHTO specification.


Department of Transportation

So, I guess we can decide that the government WAS involved...... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Want more proof?:

Transportation Research Board

Transpo Breakaway Signs

More Transpo Lifesaving Designs

And for a full explanation, this SHOULD suffice (but probably won't):

Quote

PENTAGON RESEARCH


LAMP POLES


5 aluminum lamp poles were knocked down preceding the Pentagon wall. Through contact with the VDOT, the distributors and manufacturers of the poles used in the area I have been able to determine the following basic information.*

1) The poles were breakaway style on a 18 inch transformer style base. This means that at 23 inches off the ground the pole would be broken by a Volkswagen Rabbit traveling 20 mph.
2) The poles themselves were 27.66 feet high with a weight of approximately 175 pounds.
3) The truss style mast arms were 8 foot long with a rise that brought the pole height up to 30 feet. The mast arm weighs between 15-20 pounds.
4) The lamp head weighs approximately 70 pounds.
5) The aluminum on the poles was .188 of an inch thick. The pole was 8 inches in diameter at the base and 4.5 inches in diameter at the top.

Since the light poles are the first physical damage we encounter at the Pentagon I will break the rest of this page into a consideration of them in light of a plane and a no-plane point-of-view. This is very important in order to continue on into the rest of our investigation. The damage preceding the Pentagon wall has to be logically accounted for in either scenario.

PLANE

At the speed of 345 mph which was recorded by the recovered AA77 flight data recorder, the leading edge of the wing could slice through the approximately 5 inch diameter pole (at that height) with .188 of an inch thick aluminum walls like butter. This would cause the top half of the pole to pop up over the wing and essentially fall straight back down, which is effectively what we see with all the poles in the photos. The bottom half of the pole would have been driven forward with little resistance. If a VW Rabbit can break one at 20 mph 23 inches off the ground then it takes significantly less force with the leverage effect of being hit higher up. This may be why we have minimal wing debris on the ground.

This limited damage factor is why the FAA requires these type of poles in the "safety zones" around airports and helipads. They recognize that this type of pole minimizes damage to aircraft, "FAA regulation requires any structure located within 250 feet of runway centerline has to be frangible, which means the structure needs to break away when hit by an aircraft to minimize damages to the aircraft and its pilot." (Source)

One of the most commonly reported features in the eyewitness reports was the aircraft impacting light poles. In conjunction with the reported striking of the poles many eyewitnesses mentioned a change in the sound of the engines. Some described it as the engines being "revved up" or the aircraft going to "full-throttle".

The minimum wingspan required to create the pole damage was approximately 100 feet. The maximum wingspan before you would have had additional poles impacted is approximately 140 feet. The wingspan of a 757-200 is 124 feet 10 inches. This accounts for the minimum of 100 feet and allows for a 16 foot tolerance which is exactly what we see in the diagrams.

The first pole impact occurred at approximately 1000 feet prior to the Pentagon wall. 345 mph is 506 per second. That means it would have been roughly 2 seconds with the aircraft being driven by momentum between the first pole and the wall. There would not have been the force or the time for the pole damage to cause a deviation in the flight-path.

The following video exemplifies evidence for an aircraft hitting the Pentagon including the poles. I spoke with the creator of this and clarified that they built their model and let what happened happen. The right engine ingesting the lamp head on pole number 3 was not programmed into their scenario, it was predicted by the model. This would explain the change in the engine sound reported by witnesses and the anomalous vapor trail at ground level seen in the DoD videos.


NO PLANE

If there was no plane or an aircraft with a wingspan of less than 100 feet then the light pole damage would still have to be accounted for. The no plane proponents suggest a faking of this damage. I will just list the implications of this scenario since I have not come across a realistic explanation for how this could have been done.

1) The perpetrators would have to have decided on what type of aircraft and what the wingspan of the "imaginary" plane would be in advance.
2) They would have to have agreed on a flight-path and predetermined the poles to be "damaged".
3) They would have to have had caused the poles to break up high and at the base assuming an imaginary altitude for the aircraft.
4) They would have to have had total control of all witnesses in the area including suppressing the witnesses who noticed the poles falling for no reason.
5) They would have to have had briefed the controlled witnesses on the type of plane, the flight-path, the poles being hit and the change to the engine sound.
6) They would have to have synchronized the falling of the poles with the explosion at the wall.

That gives just some idea of what you are up against in a no plane scenario. Keep in mind when you look at the photos in the sidebars there is no evidence of explosives at the upper break or the base of the poles. Also, remember they would have gone to all of this trouble to account for about 12 feet of altitude. Why not just say the plane came in at a slightly steeper angle?

* The information on the poles is representative of the poles in the area. They had different manufacturers and distributors over the years. I could not acquire information specific to the exact poles impacted. One of the main manufacturers is Union Metal.


There's even a video here:

Pentagon Research

I'm tellin' you - a conspiracy theorist's work is never done. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/17/08 06:26 AM

Quote
I'm tellin' you - a conspiracy theorist's work is never done.


That's right - cuz your conspiracy theory is full of holes. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It was cut with a torch - plain as day. Look at the discoloration from the torch. Look at how it is cleanly separated from the base all the way around. You can honestly tell me you think a hit from the top would shear it clean and even all the way around - below the angled bolt reinforcements? C'mon Frank.

A normal break. Breaking at the weakest point - the walls.
[Linked Image]

Reinforced at the bottom:
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

The FDR data (released years after the event) is bogus Frank. It puts the plane 400 FT above the Pentagon at the point of impact. See the vid done by pilotsfor911truth.org. Listen to the follow up inquiries to the NTSB.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/17/08 06:53 AM

Quote
.....a hit from the top.....


No - more like the middle, where it was cut in two by the wing.

The breakaway base will (usually) break wherever it's designed to break, and the better the quality control, the cleaner the break line will be.

OK, Phil.......... I didn't want to admit it, but George Bush did it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If you keep on with the conspiracies, you're bound to get one right someday. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Frank
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/17/08 07:40 AM

LOL GW Must have been at our School too, because that's how the one I hit broke.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/17/08 09:32 AM

Quote

The breakaway base will (usually) break wherever it's designed to break, and the better the quality control, the cleaner the break line will be.


<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

So it broke in the reinforced area which was meticulously quality controlled so as to produce aesthetically pleasing (except for the heat discoloration) breaks when hit by an aircraft - of which the FBI has 85 videos - but refuses to release a single frame which shows an airplane...for 'national security' reasons.

Ok wait - I didn't want to admit, but Tim Osman did it.

Proof

Note: Missing frames and backward time travel on superimposed time stamps are common occurrences in Officialdom. To question such things would be...

Preposterous. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/17/08 12:37 PM

[img]So it broke in the reinforced area [/img]

You need to look at the picture of the broken one again - to see that there's no reinforcement - and that the walls are pretty thin there.

Then, you need to ask yourself why anyone would go to the trouble of torching one lamp post of many that were downed. Where are the pictures of the others and what evidence is there that they were also torched?

Frank
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/17/08 01:46 PM

I didn't see anything that even looked REMOTELY torch cut in those photos. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/17/08 06:56 PM

You need to look at the pictures of the Pentagon - to see that there's no 757.

Then, you need to ask yourself why anyone would go to the trouble of torching a lamp post of the five that were downed. Where are the pictures of the plane and what evidence is there that a 757 hit?

...that is the best photo I've seen - the others have similar uniform breaks. The breaks at the top seem to be pinched and twisted apart - with a jaws of life type a tool or something.
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/17/08 08:17 PM

Quote
I didn't see anything that even looked REMOTELY torch cut in those photos. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


[Linked Image]

They have the discoloration like intense heat was applied. The one on the bottom looks like acetylene sut. I find it odd that they sheared so uniformally along that discolored line. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

If it was a jet why not release the images? All of you pro-patriot act folks have banked on the argument that if you have nothing to hide then its ok for all to be seen. Lets hold them to the same flame.
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/17/08 09:44 PM

Looks like where it was dirty from being on the ground...they winched them onto the trailer, hence twisting? Not sure, just saying.

I will agree that hole doesn't look like an airliner went into the building from that angle.

I saw people on tv saying they saw it hit...but they were probably paid by the CIA since they didn't make a YouTube video about it.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/17/08 10:40 PM

If a 757 plane hit it - from the direction of the downed lightpoles - then every witness should easily confirm this fact.

But the fact is they don't. Many of the witnesses (maybe even the majority - never counted them myself), which include Pentagon police - independently corroborate that the plane that flew over them immediately before impact came over from a completely different approach (north of Citgo gas station).

You joke about which evidence is more credible - but have you examined it? Look at the interviews of actual Shanksville witnesses - how they were harassed, threatened, and maligned by the FBI and others when their stories didn't jive with what they were told actually happened.

In fact, the majority of those that have been approached for their video testimony have (according to researchers) refused on a basis of fear, not payoff.
Posted By: Grasscat

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 12:05 AM

Quote
it was cut with a torch - plain as day.


Your kidding, right? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 03:19 AM

I've seen all the YouTube interviews, etc...I just don't buy it Phil. All of their so called "proof" was debunked in my opinion.

Hey, I'm not convinced we landed those cats on the moon though. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 03:34 AM

Quote
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

it was cut with a torch - plain as day.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Your kidding, right?


No, those who want to believe it was torched will believe it was torched....... and it won't do any good to try to explain that the breaking angles on the topmost edge (in the photo) are exactly what an engineer would expect to see when the impact was from that direction on a cast aluminum piece - and the break/tear angles on the lower side (in the same photo) are exactly what an engineer would expect to see on the off side as the pole pressured and levered the off-side to break and shear downward.

Nobody would think those are water stains, either. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What I'd like to know is how they torched the aluminum and left jagged edges (as in broken) without leaving dark burnt stains on the cut edges. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" /> Those guys are great with the acetylene stuff...... must have been using some inert unobtainable gas torch.

Frank
Posted By: Grasscat

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 05:08 AM

Why do you even bother Frank? I think they are pulling your leg, anybody with a lick of sense would know that's a break not burn. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 07:30 AM

Anyone with a lick of sense would question if a 757 hit Pentagon why don't we see one. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Some incredible physics here. A force applied to the upper portion of the pole shears the base evenly at the bottom.

Well not always evenly at the bottom - sometimes evenly at the top...almost - exactly where it was designed to break <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> :
[Linked Image]
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 01:13 PM

Quote
Why do you even bother Frank?


That's a good question...... and I'll be durned if I know, Lieutenant.

But I'm beginning to understand why every psychiatrist I see appears to be loony...... they have to listen to this stuff all day long.... every day. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Maybe there's a new paradigm in the anti-government political protest movement underway..... a sort of Cynthia McKinney focus group. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" /> Heck, if Alex Jones is the king, then she's the queen of all this stuff - not only does she think 9-11 was an inside job, she thinks the Pentagon executed 5,000 people by a bullet to the head and dumped them in the swamp during Hurricane Katrina:

Hot Air

Of course, the video in that link has been pulled, so that might be proof that it's a CIA plot to discredit Alex Jones and Cynthia McKinney. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 04:27 PM

Time to resort to that trusty ol straw man eh Frank? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Cuz gee - there isn't a 757 is there?

Yeah Alex Jones is so full of it (July 2001)

[Linked Image]

Just plain sad <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 04:53 PM

Nah.... the quintessential straw man model is set by those who jump from one conspiracy theory to another - never seeing the end of one when it's challenged, but instead jumping right to the next in an attempt to use one to prove another. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And now we're supposed to believe that only Alex Jones could predict in July 2001 that there would be a terrorist attack in the US - after the WTC had already been bombed by Bin Laden's crony Ramzi Yousef in 1993. How enlightened. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And now the internet bloggers have better engineering ideas than Purdue University?:

Purdue University

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 05:00 PM

How was it challenged? I said its cut, you said no its not. Is that the best challenge out there? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Unfortunately probably. Cuz coincidence theorists always base their argument on a predetermined conclusion.

You said it was designed to break at the bottom. I showed you another Pentagon pole that is evenly cut at the top...

So if the discoloration isn't a water mark - what is it Frank?
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 05:21 PM

Quote
And now the internet bloggers have better engineering ideas than Purdue University?:


My 3 yr old has a better idea. Where are the engines? And why is the tail intact? The hole was 16 ft. Once again - making the evidence fit the predetermined conclusion - that 60 ton 757 hit the Pentagon. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: hazy_daze

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 05:22 PM

As I read this thread, batsh!t keeps coming to mind. Dunno if that's just me.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 05:30 PM

Phil, are you gonna believe me or your lying eyes? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Cuz coincidence theorists always base their argument on a predetermined conclusion.


hardly - I base my opinion on what I see..... and what I see doesn't appear to be torched to me. What do you base your opinion on? Alex Jones?

Quote
You said it was designed to break at the bottom. I showed you another Pentagon pole that is evenly cut at the top...


I said it was designed to break at the weakest point - which is the base itself - and I would imagine the edges to be a likely point - but I also said it would depend on manufacturing quality control - the details are often confusing, eh?

Quote
So if the discoloration isn't a water mark - what is it Frank?


Who said it wasn't? You? I missed that. Buut I will say it doesn't look like it was torched. I use a torch here at work, Phil - I don't think anything I torched would look like that - nor do I think anyone would torch a base at the angles of those breaks.

But believe what you will....... for whatever reason.

frank
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 05:36 PM

Quote
My 3 yr old has a better idea.


Well, that explains where you're getting some of this stuff. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Where are the engines? And why is the tail intact? The hole was 16 ft.


I don't know - go look for them and do your own research and explain what happened.

Quote
that 60 ton 757 hit the Pentagon.


If you understood the Purdue engineering data, you would recognize that much of the weight is in liquid form - and much of the metal structure of the plane itself disintegrates at high-speed contact with a reinforced structure...... anyway, I can't get you to accept reasonable explanations, so I won't try.

You can drive yourself crazy if you want to - just don't expect me or anyone else to ride with you. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 05:58 PM

Quote
What do you base your opinion on? Alex Jones?


Straw man again. No Frank - I base my opinion on impossible Flight recorder data info, witnesses of the plane location, and the fact that a 757 could not have crashed into the Pentagon given the evidence. So then I see these poles and think - if what took them down couldn't have taken them down - then what did. And I find an even sheer at fixed levels that resemble cutting of some kind on cast aluminum quite remarkable.

Obviously I'm not stuck on a torch...angle grinder...whatever. There is visual evidence for heat.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 06:15 PM

Quote
I don't know - go look for them and do your own research and explain what happened.


Exactly. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> I have looked for them and I'm coming up short. If you ever find one yourself let me know <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Quote
If you understood the Purdue engineering data, you would recognize that much of the weight is in liquid form - and much of the metal structure of the plane itself disintegrates at high-speed contact with a reinforced structure...... anyway, I can't get you to accept reasonable explanations, so I won't try.


No, you can't provide a reasonable explanation - so I don't blame you for not trying. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> The empty wt of a 757 is around 57-65 tons. The max fuel cap of a 757 is around 6 tons. For a 757 to fit the evidence of the scene (i guess for some) we have to erroneously assume that indeed, "that much of the weight is in liquid form". (and also remove engines, reinforce uber material tail section that cuts through a building that shows no evidence of a tail section striking it...)
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 07:02 PM

I've already explained that George Bush did it..... it looks to me like he used a bush hog. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/18/08 08:00 PM

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Straw man again. Never said that but if thats the best you can do feel free to run with that Frank.

anyways...

Just released...the irony:
Army Specialist April Gallup, survi...nt for failure to act on foreknowledge.

Quote
"What they don't want is for this to go into discovery," said Gallop's attorney, Mr. Veale, speaking to RAW STORY. "If we can make it past their initial motion to dismiss these claims, and we get the power of subpoena, then we've got a real shot at getting to the bottom of this. We've got the law on our side."
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 12:42 AM

Quote
A career Army specialist.....


Let's take a look at that. What is an Army Specialist? 2 ranks away from a Private:

US Army Ranks & Insignias

There's nothing wrong with being a Specialist, but it ain't so grand as the word sounds. And how does one become a "career Specialist"?.... by spending the better part of a career at the bottom of the food chain?

Quote
Spc. Gallop also says she heard two loud explosions, and does not believe that a Boeing 757 hit the building. Her son sustained a serious brain injury, and Gallop herself was knocked unconscious after the roof collapsed onto her office.


So, she heard 2 loud explosions and was knocked unconcious - which gives credence to her claim that a plane didn't hit the Pentagon? If it wasn't a plane, what was it? And how would she know if she was unconscious?

Where is her explanation for what happened? All it seems to me to be is an attempted money grab by this "career specialist".

And Phil...... with all of the claims that you and others make that there was no plane, I ask you the same question:

What was it? And what evidence do you have to prove what it was - other than conjecture and conspiracy theories?

You want to see the evidence that it was something.... I want to see the evidence that it was something else - but first you need to say what it was. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Heck, maybe it was a missile shot from one of those F-16s that weren't in the air - shooting at a passenger liner over Pennsylvania - you know - just an accidental miss. But then we'd have to figure out a way to put Dick Cheney at the scene with a torch to take care of the lamp posts. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I want to hear what the conspiracy theorists think happened - not just questions that offer no plausible alternative and never prove anything contrary to the official version.

What was it?

Frank
Posted By: holger

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 02:27 AM

Quote
As I read this thread, batsh!t keeps coming to mind. Dunno if that's just me.


You are not alone. The thread is definitely weird.
Posted By: Grasscat

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 02:30 AM

Quote
with all of the claims that you and others make that there was no plane


Were there not folks that lost their lives on that plane or are the family members just imaging things?
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 04:48 AM

Quote
Were there not folks that lost their lives on that plane or are the family members just imaging things?


Here are pictures of some of the 66 people that were killed aboard Flight 77 that crashed into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001:

Flight 77 Victims

If they aren't dead, perhaps Phil knows where they're hiding.

If Phil knows where they're hiding, perhaps he will let their families know where to find them.

If the plane actually crashed somewhere else, perhaps Phil knows where it crashed.

And if it wasn't a plane that crashed into the Pentagon, I'm sure Phil knows what it was.

What was it?

Frank
Posted By: LandRaider

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 05:01 AM

Quote
Quote
Were there not folks that lost their lives on that plane or are the family members just imaging things?


Here are pictures of some of the 66 people that were killed aboard Flight 77 that crashed into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001:

Flight 77 Victims

If they aren't dead, perhaps Phil knows where they're hiding.

If Phil knows where they're hiding, perhaps he will let their families know where to find them.

If the plane actually crashed somewhere else, perhaps Phil knows where it crashed.

And if it wasn't a plane that crashed into the Pentagon, I'm sure Phil knows what it was.

What was it?

Frank


These are all good points.

Phil.. show them the only video released of the "plane" screaming in 4 feet above the ground. you know the one I am talking about. Aecurity camera footage where the "plane" is 20 feet long, and shaped like a missle...



Personally... I do not think our gov. is capable ot pulling off a conspiracy like this, and at BEST it's a cover up for something.

These dorks can;t even govern our country correctly, so I really don't think they have the pull to torch lamp posts withough folks knowing or seeing.
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 05:40 AM

I found it odd that our fighters were in a training exercise that very morning for that exact scenario yet Condoleeza lied about any knowledge of hijacked aircraft being used as bombs against the WTC being possible. I also found it odd that Bush sat there for 7 minutes after being told we were under attack. What was he waiting for? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Something is up and it involves more than muslims wanting to kill Americans. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 01:13 PM

Quote
Phil.. show them the only video released of the "plane" screaming in 4 feet above the ground. you know the one I am talking about. Aecurity camera footage where the "plane" is 20 feet long, and shaped like a missle...


Yes, let's see that.

Quote
Something is up....


What is it?

Quote
....and it involves more than muslims wanting to kill Americans.


What is it?

I'm sure Ted Olsen would like to know where Barbara is these days. And the other wives, husbands and children would like to know where their loved ones are.

Where's the beef?

What was it?

Instead of all the sinister inuendo and conjecture, show some proof.

What was it?

Frank
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 04:18 PM

I agree with you Frank that we really dont know what happened. We all are operating on what we have been told. I was not there, I have seen nothing in person nor do i have the proper training to decipher the anomalies that are present. I admit that I fundamentally do not trust the government and that directs my belief system. I will stop talking about these theories as if they are fact because honestly I dont really know, it just really looks to me like at the very least we allowed this to happen. I'll always have my suspicion but what good would it do to convince everybody of something I'm really not sure about?

Lets talk about something that brings us together. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />

So Obama is the greatest right? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 05:00 PM

Well lets see:

First - Frank again you circumvent evidence by this time attacking the rank of a military person to discredit their experience. I could care if it was a janitor. If rank and status is your criteria by which you judge testimony - then stick with this guy.

If not - then at least consider her experience and viewpoint as a ground zero witness to the event

As cmonty has said - if the official conspiracy theory is a slam dunk - what is your or the government's beef with anyone examining and trying the evidence? What are you afraid of?

Quote
Were there not folks that lost their lives on that plane or are the family members just imaging things?


With the exception of a couple of the alleged hijackers its seems most likely to me that those said to be aboard the planes were killed. How exactly is anyone's guess, but I find the initial AP reports of Flight 93 and Flight 1989 landing at Clevland suspicious. I find the fact that in those reports the passengers on the alleged flight 93 were deboarded into a defunct NASA hangar and the story ends there rather disturbing. And why, according to an FOIA lawsuit, did three non military aircraft leave that airport in the days after when all were supposedly grounded? I find the testimony of Clayton White of the NY Giants disturbing.

I could take pages citing why the official story in every detail stinks. But let me throw a few of the less sexy, less debated ones out there - I find the FAA registration records of the aircraft suspicious. I find Indira Singh's testimony damning. I find Ptech fitting. I find the submission of a revised flight plan by the hijackers on 93 enroute to be hysterical. I find the NTSB FDR simulation and their response to questions ridiculous. I find alleged cell phone calls nearly impossible given the technology at the time and the calls recorded to be extremely odd and out of character. I don't believe for a minute that 93 crashed in Shanksville but I can't get into that on a public forum <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I find the NORAD tapes damning. I find Trans Sec. Mineta's testimony (that was struck from the final 9-11 commission report) damning (and no doubt will be used in Gallop's lawsuit) I find all the evidence around Atta and Huffman aviation completely unravelling to the official story. I find Berry Jennings' story and hi...ore the NIST report on WTC 7 compelling. I find 9-11 Commission Chair Lee Hamilton's statement that the "Commission was set up to fail" ...true <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote

If they aren't dead, perhaps Phil knows where they're hiding.

If Phil knows where they're hiding, perhaps he will let their families know where to find them.

If the plane actually crashed somewhere else, perhaps Phil knows where it crashed.

And if it wasn't a plane that crashed into the Pentagon, I'm sure Phil knows what it was.

I don't know what hit the pentagon. I know what didn't hit the Pentagon. Ridicule is fine - it comes with your preconception.

Quote
Phil.. show them the only video released of the "plane" screaming in 4 feet above the ground. you know the one I am talking about. A security camera footage where the "plane" is 20 feet long, and shaped like a missle...


Personally I don't think it tells us anything

Second video

Quote

Personally... I do not think our gov. is capable ot pulling off a conspiracy like this, and at BEST it's a cover up for something.


I don't either. But when considering that statement we delineate to commonly accepted understanding of 'government' - the mere outer layer of the system we are familiar with when it fact it is a multidimensional and unfathomably complex enterprise that consists of thousands of individuals of different creeds, motives, agendas, etc. There are good people and bad people in it. Criminals and saints. Some people that will unquestionably do what their told, other who can be convinced, others who can be coerced, others who can be bought, others are clueless and naive, others who will do what's right no matter what... There are some who will lie and some who will tell the truth and some who will break when the heat is on, and some who forever fly under the radar. Within those personalities are some who give orders and some who take orders...Within that it is rational to assume that in some cases 'birds of feather flock together'. Who nowadays isn't profiled when they apply for a job? Who isn't profiled when a promotion is considered? It is also rational to conclude that an 'inside job' of such magnitude will have compartmentalization that will help failsafe the operation among the multitude of personalities that will have some part or witness to the event. The NORAD tapes are proof of this. The war game exercises held that day are proof of this.

The other part of that statement needs reassessment IMO. They didn't 'pull it off' - The fact that anyone questions the official version, or downright doesn't believe it or has evidence contrary is validation of this point. The fact that the claims and evidence contrary have not found their day in court or are 'officially' considered or reviewed is not suggestive that they are invalid, but only a testament to the power of the shadow government and/or the people that are really running things.

Furthermore when you ponder that claim, keep in mind that this same incompetent government had talking heads sitting in guest chairs of every major media studio before the towers even fell, solidifying the perception before even a scrap of evidence was gathered, that bin laden did it. So at what point do you consider them incompetent and yet implicitly trustworthy of their assessment - which requires competence?

This is how things have always been done - since Nero burned Rome and blamed it on the Christians.

In our context - reviewing recent history, this cabal of like minds and agendas have had quasi control since JFK took a bullet to the FOREHEAD. The control has strengthened, and our liberties diminished incrementally following every subsequent major event.

The poles...its not impossible to imagine shutting down the road in the middle of the night, knocking off the poles and throwing them next to the guard rail. As Mineta's testimony affirms - the incoming flight was known and tracked with plenty of time to set up for the rest of the op the next day. The only car that was on that part of the road (which was immediately shut down when the pentagon was hit) was the black lincoln taxi seen in the photo. Lloyd is the driver. His wife is FBI. He's been interviewed extensively by citizen investigators - his story is fishy, and his damaged car is fishier still.

Back to one more thing regarding one of the earlier comments.

There is this aire that is commonly projected against 'truthers' of 'how dare you question the events surrounding the deaths of the victims and efforts of rescue workers'. Be careful who you bring that up with. A very large contingent of them are not on your side and in fact very disgusted with the whole mambepambe virility that has permeated perceptions of 9-11:

Press for Truth - Produced in coope...d not accept the governments hush money.

9-11 Truth Rising - a look at the activists and rescue workers - 70% of the 40,000 sick, dying, and dead based on lies of the very government you believe regarding the events that led to this travesty.

See for yourself what the 9-11 victims families think of the official story
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 05:40 PM

What was it?

Frank
Posted By: Grasscat

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 06:07 PM

[color:"red"] [b]Where are these 64 people????[/b] [/color]
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 07:42 PM

Michael, I'm afraid the conspiracy theorists can't answer the simple questions. Someone once told me that while a lie was often very complicated, the truth was simple to explain. These conspiracy theorists have so many answers and ideas that they eventually contradict themselves:

Quote
And why is the tail intact?


Quote
I don't know what hit the pentagon. I know what didn't hit the Pentagon.


If the naysaying wasn't so disrespectful to the families of those who died, it would be funny.

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 07:53 PM

Quote
If the naysaying wasn't so disrespectful to the families of those who died, it would be funny.


Who's being disrespectful Frank? Jeez. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" />

Your kind make me sick And its not 'about 10 of them'

Quote
...A common criticism of those who question 9/11 is that they are being "disrespectful to the victims and their families".

However, half of the victim's families believe that 9/11 was an inside job (according to the head of the largest 9/11 family group, Bill Doyle)...
Link
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 09:24 PM

That last link does much more to hurt your argument, than to help it.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 10:06 PM

Quote
Your kind make me sick


I don't know if I made you sick, but at least you seem to recognize that there may be a problem in that area. That's a real good first step...... take another.

1) What was it?

- and -

2) Where are the people?

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/19/08 11:32 PM

Quote
but at least you seem to recognize that there may be a problem in that area.


Better believe it.

You gonna go the distance Frank? Bundle up in that flag and come up here and be a patriot?

You weren't in NYC in 07 were you Frank?
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/20/08 12:42 AM

To paraphrase the conspiracy theorists: "Oh, now we've devolved into ad hominen attacks and straw men."...... as said by the biggest ad hominem straw man bearers of all time.

Quote
You weren't in NYC in 07 were you Frank?


No, I worked in the City for a long time, but left in '94. I turned my card over to the guy in the blue shirt who's talking to you. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Better believe it.


I don't think Michael Reagan likes you very much. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Quote
You gonna go the distance Frank? Bundle up in that flag and come up here and be a patriot?


I have no idea what that means....... maybe some sort of Mossad code, eh? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If you mean am I going to come up to Milwaukee and kick your <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" />, then no - you're free to say what you want...... just don't be surprised when a guy in a blue shirt (or white coat) shows up.

I just want to know 2 simple answers from you:

1) What was it?
2) Where are the people?

If you know so much, that shouldn't be hard to explain, right?

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/20/08 06:22 AM

Quote
I just want to know 2 simple answers from you:

1) What was it?
2) Where are the people?

If you know so much, that shouldn't be hard to explain, right?

Frank


Where's the 757? The one with no engines?

If you know so much, that shouldn't be hard to explain, right?
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/20/08 07:23 AM

Quote

Hey, I'm not convinced we landed those cats on the moon though.


Baby steps <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ...here's for your viewing pleasure Stony. The second clip can be downloaded at NASA's video archive. The sneaker prints off of NASA's archive did it for me, but the whole journey was a 'blast'.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/20/08 12:00 PM

Quote
Where's the 757? The one with no engines?


No, the one that first had no damage to its tail - then wasn't there at all - and now has no engines.

So, what was it?

And where are the people?

Quote
If you know so much, that shouldn't be hard to explain, right?


In the "Shoes" thread, I believe you appointed yourself as the "better informed":

Quote
A favorite tactic of the ignorant attacking the better informed.


So, what was it?

- and -

Where are those people?

Frank
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/20/08 11:30 PM

Well, I guess Phil needs a little help with the simple questions:

1) If it wasn't a plane what was it?

- and -

2) Where are the people?

Let's see if this helps:

Quote


Flight 77 Eyewitnesses
at the Pentagon on 911


ELAINE McCUSKER: "Traffic is normally slow right around the Pentagon [...]. I don't know what made me look up, but I did and I saw a very low-flying American Airlines plane that seemed to be accelerating. My first thought was just 'No, no, no, no,' because it was obvious the plane [...] was going to crash."

MIKE WALTER: "I saw this plane, a jet, an American Airline's jet [...it] slammed right into the Pentagon."

OMAR CAMPO: "It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane. I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire."

RYAN JAMES: "When I looked up on my left [...] I see an American Airline plane. A silver plane. I can see 'AA' on the tail. I noticed that the landing gear were up. [...then] he hit full gas [...] and went straight in [to the Pentagon ...] I recognized it immediately as a passenger plane."

JAMES CISSELL: "Out of my peripheral vision I saw this plane coming in and it was low - and getting lower. I thought, 'This isn't really happening. That is a big plane.' Then I saw the faces of some of the passengers on board."

STEVE RISKUS: "I took these pictures seconds after the plane hit the pentagon. I was traveling on route 27 towards 395 when the plane crossed my path from the right about 100ft in front of me and crashed into the pentagon."

CBS News Special Report (CBS News transcripts, 9/11/01): Witness: The plane "clipped this pole over here. Hit this other pole and slammed right into the building. Huge explosion and then utter pandemonium, as you might imagine. I mean, everybody was screaming, 'Oh, my God.' [...] There was no doubt about it, it was American Airlines, slammed right into the building. And there was no doubt about it, whoever was piloting that plane was aiming for the Pentagon."

KOVR 13 News Tonight, KOVR-TV (Video Monitoring Services of America abstract, 09/11/01): "Interview - Jennifer Brower, witness, says she can't believe she saw an American Airlines plane crash into The Pentagon."

NBC News Special Report (NBC News Transcripts, 09/11/01): "Now, according to eyewitnesses, it was a American Airlines 757 that came sort of from the direction of National Airport."

MSNBC Special Report (transcript 091100cb.455, Sept 11, 2001): REP. BRIAN BAIRD (D), WASHINGTON: "We had been watching the coverage in New York [...] Maybe a minute later, my staff was looking out the window and said, 'You know, there are not supposed to be any airplanes in the air, but there's an airplane.' She looked and said, 'Hey, everybody, there's an airplane out here. What's going on?' And the next minute, she looked out the window said, 'My God, it hit the Pentagon.'"

TV 6 Prime Time News WITI-TV (Video Monitoring Services of America abstract, 09/11/01) "Interview - Mike Walter, witness to Pentagon attack, saw American Airlines jet coming."

NBC Nightly News (Video Monitoring Services of America abstract, 09/11/01): "Interview - Unidentified woman, witness, says she say a commercial plane go right into the side of the Pentagon."

The Press Association Limited (09/11/01): "A woman eyewitness told CNN of the plane crashing into the Pentagon: 'A commercial plane came in. It was coming too fast, too low and then I saw the fire that came up after that.'"

The Washington Post (09/12/01, A1): "In the hazy hours that followed the attack, it was unclear which of four hijacked planes ended up where. But witnesses soon identified the aircraft that smashed into the Pentagon as an American flight, and then as Flight 77, which was unusually light on passengers this day."

The San Diego Union-Tribune (09/12/01, A3): "Several witnesses said the twin-engine Boeing 757 came in low and fast and may have clipped light stanchions before hitting near the ground level on the west side of the building."

The Guardian (09/12/01): "A pilot who saw the impact, Tim Timmerman, said it had been an American Airways 757. 'It added power on its way in,' he said. 'The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball.'"

United Press International (09/11/01): "an eyewitness near the Department of Defense in Arlington, Va., said he noticed American Airlines markings on the aircraft that struck the Pentagon moments before it hit the building at 9:39 a.m. Tim Timmerman, who said he was a pilot, told CNN in a telephone interview that he viewed the passenger jet as it struck the building. Arlington County firemen said that there were American Airlines markings on the pieces on the ground."


Goddard's Journal - Pentagon

You can click on the web link to access the full story by each news source.

And for those who would like to see the debunking of this "conspiracy theory" by Goddard, here it is:

web page - main

I particularly like this part:

Quote
From a stand point of good analysis, what is most disturbing about the given theory is how much its believers are willing to allow to become inexplicable by accepting its flawed argument falsified above. A good theory explains circumstances, but this theory makes them more inexplicable. For example, if Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, then what became of Flight 77 and its passengers?


I think I can answer that:

1) The plane hit the Pentagon.

- and -

2) The passengers are all dead.

See, the problem with the "Takers of the Red Pill" is that they begin with a false premise - that others have already taken the blue pill and their course of seeking the Red Pill Truth is all that matters. They believe that most of the world's population lives under an illusion and are nothing but sheep that don't think - but are conditioned to accept the rationale of the day en mass. Only the "Takers of the Red Pill" can find real truth..... and it will be different than whatever the others believe, no matter what. They then set about trying to prove a predisposed Truth that contradicts the real Truth that they believe the "others" to be predisposed and/or brainwashed to believe.

And so, in formulating the hypothesis that gives them their self-import, they insist they won't live under the perceived illusion (itself an illusion) - and instead enter the delusional state of illusion that presumes that commonly held wisdom can't possibly be correct - because it's represented by the blue pill swallowers - not knowing if all of the majority has swallowed the pill or not, but under the deluded and brainwashed idea that they have. The "Masters of the Takers of the Red Pill" now have these "Super Sheep" under their spell and send them out to disrupt society.

But wait...... society challenges their lies and asks them simple questions that they can't answer, causing the "Takers of the Red Pill" to become confused because all that they have been fed and brainwashed to believe by their Masters has not been quite so easy to explain. And the desire to prove that Truth is never what it seems, coupled with the reality that the simplest questions of their version of Truth cannot be answered by them.... confound them to the point of madness.

And so it goes - around and around - from one conspiracy to another - all the time certain that the next conspiracy theory will turn out to be accurate and they shall be righteous.

They even gather in groups in coffee houses and on the internet to exchange theory - like old men in a barber shop.... one lie begets another and is topped by yet another until anyone left standing is quite insane. Ahhhh, but he's their leader - the leader of the insane...... and now qualified to become ordained as a "Grand Master of the Red Pill Takers".

This head guy will of course someday go out in a blazing gunfight with the FBI, CIA or the Mossad <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> - a shame.... when he could have been saved by one simple Truth:

EASE UP ON THE RED PILLS AND TRY A COUPLE OF THE BLUE ONES!

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/21/08 03:59 PM

Hmmm. Quite a selective list of quotes there. One would almost think that an AA 757 is what everyone saw hit the building wouldn't ya?

I'm not gonna get into an eyewitness quote battle. And it should be noted that some of those quotes have been condensed from their complete context - some of which contradict what we are told actually happened. (BTW Frank - Goddard is a 'conspiracy theorist'...and the links to articles from which they were sourced are gone <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cyclops.gif" alt="" />) It doesn't prove anything for a 757 hitting the Pentagon, just as contradictory quotes from eyewitness wouldn't PROVE a 757 didn't hit the pentagon. (Pentagon employees retelling a strong smell of cordite within the building might get interesting... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Neither have I stated anywhere that it was impossible for an AA designated airliner to be in the vicinity. There is a large contingent of truthers (based on witness testimony) that believe the best explanation involves a flyover.

Fact: The FBI rounded up and confiscated 80+ tapes from surveillance cameras around the Pentagon that very day. Why not show us the tapes? (Hell, why confiscate tapes?)

The lame Goddard page is telling. What proponents of a 757 hitting the Pentagon (which includes some truthers) don't want to get into is the 16 foot hole through which presumably a 60 ton, 124 foot wingspan, 44 foot tail height aircraft squeezed. The tail height is significant in light of this hole - as the external surface surrounding this hole - including windows - remains intact with absolutely no indication of even contact - let alone damage. Support columns within the building that withstood the impact are also indicative of a smaller craft. Of course a physics simulation paraded out by a respected university is convenient - especially when the simulation has neither of the two 6 ton ea. engines comprised mostly of titanium factored into the model. Also convenient is the fate of the tail - which remains attached and laughably collapses into the fuselage as it plows through a wall section that, in reality, sustains no damage.

Quote
I think I can answer that...


Thinking is good. So do you think or do you know what hit the Pentagon?

I don't know. I'd like to. There is evidence that existed that should have readily dispelled any doubt. We are not allowed to see it.

Frank likes to hide behind the false premise that: If a 757 didn't hit the pentagon, then I should somehow omnisciently know what did and what happened to the passengers of 77 (I would assume they are dead as I've already stated). Beyond the obvious absurdity of such a claim, it reveals the predisposition to dismissing any evidence to the contrary that a 757 could not have hit the Pentagon. Instead of debating the evidence or lack thereof, we hear round after round of character assassination. In one post its Cynthia McKinney. In another its the rank of a witness. In another its 'bloggers'... It's very telling of what the official conspiracy theory can actually produce to back up their claims. When I counter Frank's defense of the Purdue simulation with objective observations, Frank moves on. When I counter with testiment to the fact that a significant portion of rescue workers and victims families are 'truthers', Frank moves on...

Quote
See, the problem with the "Takers of the Red Pill" is that they begin with a false premise...blah blah blah...


Wow - you've really got me pegged there Frank. Talk about conspiracy theory... Just a couple of problems with that:

Few people with in the '9-11 Truth' movement, including myself, initially believed the event was an inside job. Like most, I implicitly believed my government was telling me the truth. Once upon a time I ran into some counter claims to the official story regarding the Pentagon crash and looked into it. At the time one of the defacto references for debunking the Pentagon/inside job claim was a thread on the ATS boards. I read it. It was very convincing and I believed it and moved on, content that any claim contrary to the official story was bogus in light of this systematic rebuttal.

A couple of years later I had my own experience with the Israeli art student op. The response I got from my government began to make me doubt the trustworthiness of my government, however it wasn't until 2yrs beyond that I really started looking into the facts of 9-11 and coming to some disturbing conclusions.

Incidentally that thread I had read years ago on ATS lingered on itself for years afterwards. Come to find out the 'debunker' poster of the thread was traced down from IP and other boards as Pentagon intelligence. When proof of this was produced on his own thread, he was never seen there again. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cyclops.gif" alt="" />

Quote
...their course of seeking the truth is all that matters.


What supercedes the truth Frank? What matters more?

Its interesting how you pit this us vs. them fictional assesment when you say:
Quote
They believe that most of the world's population lives under an illusion and are nothing but sheep that don't think

If that is true. Then why is the main if not only thrust of the 'Truth movment' an information awareness campaign? What would be the point of me handing out flyers on my own dime and time in freezing weather to "sheep that don't think"?

There are some who refuse to think, who are so emotionally attached to their perceptions that they will do anything to maintain them. Unfortunately any chance of a rational discussion is lost as the best defense lies in an argument appealing to emotion...'unpatriotic', 'disrepectful of victim families', 'disrupting society', 'delusional', 'quite insane'...

Quote
They even gather in groups in coffee houses and on the internet to exchange theory - like old men in a barber shop....


Its a shame...and troubling ain't it Frank - exercising the right to free and open assembly is very dangerous. Perhaps you should advocate for 'Conspiracy Theory' Zones to ensure that correct perceptions are maintained and society is not disrupted. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mrt.gif" alt="" />

Quote
"The people cannot be all, and always, well-informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty."

"Experience has shewn that, even under the best forms, those entrusted with power have, in time and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny; and it is believed that the most effectual means of preventing this would be to illuminate, as far as practical, the minds of the people at large, and more especially to give them knowledge of those facts which history exhibiteth"

~Thomas Jefferson


Speaking of history Frank, exactly how preposterous is it to conjure up the insane idea that our government could ever conceive of such a dastardly deed based on this document (starting at pdf pg 10, and particularly pdf pg 13(doc pg 10))?

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/21/08 04:33 PM

Quote
I'm not gonna get into an eyewitness quote battle.


Of course not - you'd lose.

Quote
And it should be noted that some of those quotes have been condensed from their complete context


The heart of it is there - I don't think you could find that many folks who saw an AA airplane fly into the Pentagon if it didn't happen.

Quote
BTW Frank - Goddard is a 'conspiracy theorist'...


Yes, he took the Super-Duper Red Pill which is used to make Truth from half-truth.

Quote
and the links to articles from which they were sourced are gone


Some are, but enough remain for most folks to get the idea - and if you really want to see them, try Lexis-Nexis.

Quote
There is a large contingent of truthers (based on witness testimony) that believe the best explanation involves a flyover.


OK, show me where they can disprove eyewitness accounts and get those eyewitnesses to agree that the plane didn't really hit the Pentagon.

Quote
Fact: The FBI rounded up and confiscated 80+ tapes from surveillance cameras around the Pentagon that very day. Why not show us the tapes? (Hell, why confiscate tapes?)


So what does that prove? I suspect some of the same has been done with the airliners that hit the WTC - because I saw something on TV that day that I have not seen since - what I thought was an F-16 rolling in (too late) behind the second airliner - but I can't be sure - all I know is that another airplane appeared flying left-to-right across the path of the incoming airliner that hit the second WTC building long after all aircraft were supposed to be on the ground. Does that mean that the airliner didn't hit the WTC? Nope.

Quote
What proponents of a 757 hitting the Pentagon (which includes some truthers) don't want to get into is the 16 foot hole through which presumably a 60 ton, 124 foot wingspan, 44 foot tail height aircraft squeezed. The tail height is significant in light of this hole - as the external surface surrounding this hole - including windows - remains intact with absolutely no indication of even contact - let alone damage. Support columns within the building that withstood the impact are also indicative of a smaller craft. Of course a physics simulation paraded out by a respected university is convenient - especially when the simulation has neither of the two 6 ton ea. engines comprised mostly of titanium factored into the model. Also convenient is the fate of the tail - which remains attached and laughably collapses into the fuselage as it plows through a wall section that, in reality, sustains no damage.


The explanation is there if you want to read it..... and believe it.

Quote
So do you think or do you know what hit the Pentagon?


Since neither of us saw the airplane hit, we're left with what we think - based on a preponderance of evidence. I accept the evidence I see and find it plausible. You don't. Yet you have no alternative theory - except to use your disbelief and distrust of the government to state that it wasn't American Airlines 757 Flight 77 that hit the building..... and in the doing you contradict yourself over and over - (an airplane didn't hit it - how is the tail section intact?).... and you cannot tell us what happened to Flight 77 or the passengers..... a completely flawed theory..... yet you expect folks to use it as the basis to disbelieve the more plausible one.

Quote
If that is true. Then why is the main if not only thrust of the 'Truth movment' an information awareness campaign? What would be the point of me handing out flyers on my own dime and time in freezing weather to "sheep that don't think"?


There is nothing wrong with asking questions and seeking truth.... except when the line is crossed and anomalies or misunderstood science is used in an attempt to create a scenario that can't hold water - and can't answer basic challenges like:

1) What hit the Pentagon?

- and -

2) Where are the people?

Quote
Its a shame...and troubling ain't it Frank - exercising the right to free and open assembly is very dangerous. Perhaps you should advocate for 'Conspiracy Theory' Zones to ensure that correct perceptions are maintained and society is not disrupted.


Now there's an idea. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As usual, you make the attempt to lay credence to a conspiracy theory by pointing to another situation as proof that the other is true..... IOW, because the government has fooled you once, it tries to fool you in all things - but since you've taken the Red Pill, you're too "informed" for them to fool. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

So, let's get back to the original questions:

1) What is it if not Flight 77 and if it wasn't Flight 77, then where is it?

2) Where are those people?

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/22/08 02:39 AM

Quote
1) What is it if not Flight 77 and if it wasn't Flight 77, then where is it?

2) Where are those people?


Where are the tapes? If there's nothing to hide - why not see the tapes?

I'll repeat:

Quote
Frank likes to hide behind the false premise that: If a 757 didn't hit the pentagon, then I should somehow omnisciently know what did and what happened to the passengers of 77 (I would assume they are dead as I've already stated). Beyond the obvious absurdity of such a claim, it reveals the predisposition to dismissing any evidence to the contrary that a 757 could not have hit the Pentagon.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/22/08 02:59 AM

Since you're still doing the jitterbug, let's try this:

Here are the words of two eye witnesses among many who saw Flight 77 hit the Pentagon:

Quote
Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. "There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in."

A pilot who saw the impact, Tim Timmerman, said it had been an American Airways 757. "It added power on its way in," he said. "The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball."


Guardian

And then, there are all of the 757 parts found at the scene:

A Boeing 757 Struck the Pentagon

Finally, we have a soldier conducting recovery operations who describes the discovery of Flight 77 passengers still strapped in their seats:

Quote
When Williams discovered the scorched bodies of several airline passengers, they were still strapped into their seats. The stench of charred flesh overwhelmed him.

"It was the worst thing you can imagine," said Williams, whose squad from Fort Belvoir, Va., entered the building, less than four hours after the terrorist attack. "I wanted to cry from the minute I walked in. But I have soldiers under me and I had to put my feelings aside."


USA Today

So, in summary - we have:

1) Eyewitnesses who said the plane hit the Pentagon.
2) 757 parts all over the crash scene.
3) Dead and burned passengers still strapped in their seats found by an extraction team inside the Pentagon.

Are you still going to try to tell us that Flight 77 did not crash into the Pentagon?

Frank
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/22/08 03:07 AM

Regardless of which side of the argument I fall, I would like to tell you both I enjoy reading these posts. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LandRaider

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/22/08 03:31 AM

So do I.
Posted By: hazy_daze

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/22/08 04:44 AM

Quote
So do I.


x2! Man, I'm lovin all this banter. But, batsh!t still comes to mind every time I click on this thread....
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/22/08 04:58 AM

Well, if you're enjoying it, let's add a little more factual evidence to the list:

After recovery of the remains of the passengers, crew and hijackers from the wreckage of Flight 77 INSIDE THE PENTAGON, the remains were turned over to the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology - based at Walter Reed Army Medical Center - for identification. DNA testing was done mostly at Dover AFB and of the 64 civilians on Flight 77, the remains of all but 5 were identified:

Armed Forces Medical Examiners

Quote
In New York, where the monumental task of identifying the remains of 2,823 victims believed to be dead continues, no remains have been linked to the 10 hijackers who crashed two airliners into the World Trade Center. About half the victims' families still are waiting for their loved ones to be identified, though it's likely many never will be because so much of the site was incinerated.

In contrast, the remains of all 40 victims in the Pennsylvania crash and all but five of the 184 victims at the Pentagon site were identified months ago.


CBS News - August 17, 2002

After the remains were identified, some of the personal effects of the dead were returned to their families:

Quote
"During an interview earlier this week, Koch delicately handled eerie mementos of the crash found during cleanup: Whittington's battered driver's license... a burnt luggage tag and a wedding ring lie on a book dedicated to those lost in the events of Sept. 11, 2001. The wedding ring belonged to Ruth's daughter and the luggage tag belonged to one her granddaughters."


OnlineAthens

Quote
“Suzanne Calley died aboard American Airlines Flight 77 when terrorists hijacked the plane and sent it crashing into the Pentagon... Rescue crews were able to pull Calley’s body from Flight 77’s wreckage. Jensen [Calley’s husband] spent last year’s anniversary of the national tragedy in Washington, D.C. There, a Pentagon official - assigned to Calley’s family as a liaison - gave Jensen his wife’s wedding ring, which had been recovered from the plane.”


Gilroy Dispatch

Quote
My dad, George Simmons, was on the plane because he was accompanying his wife, Diane, to go to her father's funeral in Hawaii. They were going with the ashes, which were to be spread in Kauai...

The FBI contacted us to get DNA samples, so they could identify the victims-they had to take blood from each one of us. It was awful. We're in my dad and Diane's house in Great Falls, having to tell the FBI exactly what they look like, and look for the name of their dentist, and identify in detail what jewelry they may have been wearing, what clothes. They told us to save samples of their hair from their brushes upstairs, and their toothbrushes...

We got his wedding band back. We got his business card with his name on it. We got his day planner, and it was only charred along the outside rim, but it's completely readable, each page. And his address book-it was charred on the outside as well. It was like a leather binder, and every page was readable. They would probably have been in his carry-on bag, which he usually brought, a canvas one, so it was kind of bizarre-it makes you think, did he really suffer through this? How long did he suffer before they passed away, because, if all that is so readable, it's pretty disturbing. The smell of the items was horrible, horrific. It was so overpowering. The FBI sent it wrapped in plastic, and when I opened it in my apartment, my entire apartment smelled like that for a couple days. They found Diane's Visa credit card and her checkbook.
The National Journal, August 31, 2002


So, we've now established:

1) Eyewitnesses who said the plane hit the Pentagon.
2) 757 parts all over the crash scene.
3) Dead and burned passengers still strapped in their seats found by an extraction team inside the Pentagon.
4) All but 5 aboard Flight 77 were identified through DNA testing.
5) Some personal effects of those passengers were found along with their bodies inside the Pentagon and further inside the wreckage of an AA 757 (aka Flight 77).... and returned to the families of the victims.

Now -

1) Phil says that Flight 77 didn't crash into the Pentagon, but doesn't know what did.
2) He agrees the passengers are probably dead, but he doesn't know how they died and has no alternative scenario.
3) He agrees there might have been an AA in the area doing... what - a flyover? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.... but doesn't know what happened next.
4) He doesn't know where Flight 77 might have otherwise landed.
5) He damned sure doesn't know how the Flight 77 passengers could have been extracted from inside the Pentagon unless the plane crashed into the Pentagon.

In other words...... Phil don't know jack.

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Grasscat

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/22/08 06:52 AM

Quote
In other words...... Phil don't know jack.


He's not alone, after reading some of the post on the above site you posted, he has a few in his camp, but not many. I wonder why?

Frank, don't post anymore of those site, I just wasted hours reading that mess. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/22/08 09:08 PM

Who's the jitterbug?

Could you at least answer one question?

Why can't we see the tapes?!?! Its a slam dunk Frank, right? Why can't I see them?

I'm glad you found the ATS thread - I knew I could count on you to dredge up the now infamous BS post of CatHerder (fitting name eh?). Brings back fond memories of seeing 'all' <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> of the evidence and getting back to baseball and apple pie in the good ol' US of A. Nice to see that thread is still going strong - well kinda. Ya see the owners/admins of ATS have quelled any discussion of CATHERDER, but if you have the time to peruse the 282 pages of that thread, you might begin to find traces of good ol disinfo being outed.
Here is the original rebuttal of C...plausible, but certainly not conclusive (Original CatHerder article & pics included with Quinn's rebuttal notes in blue). A lot has happened since then as far as info gathering - mostly by way extensive eyewitness testimony - most of which can be found on thePentcon.com ...no need to go there just yet - we'll be looking at some of their work below.

A look into the owners/admins of the ATS board, and some speculation on CatHerder I believe it was sometime after this that someone on ATS did some more CatHerder digging and posted it to the thread. I don't know if its still there. Doubt it - read the above article, or search 'CatHerder' on ATS - negative discussion is censored by admins.


On to the cherry picking:

The most extensive collection of eyewitness accounts regarding the Pentagon crash.

Within this mile long list of 181 accounts, how many witness testimonies does one find claiming to having seen a plane clip the light posts? All 181? 175? 150? How about 100? How about 50? 25? 15? 10? 5? 4? 3? 2?...

One. 1/2 of 1% of the witness testimony corroborates (well no, it doesn't 'corroborate' as there is only one testimony) that an AA 757 (presumably) hit the light posts.

Now lets think critically for once shall we? The light posts are important because they would at least affirm that the 757 impacted the Pentagon from the direction of which the light posts were downed. Since nearly all of these quotes don't allow us to place the witness at their unique vantage point at the time, and the few that do exclude the possibility of their vantage confirming a precise location of the plane before impact, we have to narrow things down.

Lets look at what the Pentacon folk have done. In the video I'm about post Craig makes an important point: "Its the general details that get corraborated, that we know are the true ones...the more simple the claim the more likely it is to be true."

So what general detail can be gleaned from eyewitnesses that is specific enough to solicit a conclusion that: A) An AA 757 slammed into the Pentagon from the direction of the downed light poles. Or B) An AA 757 did not slam into the Pentagon from the direction of the downed light poles.?

If a 757 presumably slammed into the Pentagon from a clearly different direction - we have a problem with the light pole evidence. If the facts surrounding the light poles contradict the official claim - what other parts of the official account might have problems?

Since Frank doesn't review my links I'll put the short version: The CIT people have independently and unanimously corroborated by eyewitnesses closest to the impacted side of the Pentagon (literally across the street) that the jet (whatever it was) could not have downed the light poles.

These witnesses were the closest to the craft of any. Some of them actually felt the heat from the engines as it passed over.

So the 'simple claim' is this: The presumed 757 believed to have hit the Pentagon flew towards its target from a direction north of the Citgo Gas Station. If this can be verified - the light poles could not have been taken out by the alleged AA 757.

[Linked Image]

Fact: The planes placement North of the Citgo station is verified by ALL of the witness, independently and exhaustively interviewed:

Part 1 of the most recent eyewitness interviews.

Part 2

Article by interviewers

more interviews

What nut jobs eh Frank? I mean - our government said it didn't happen that way so of course these crazies are full of wack...and 'lies'.

Except now we have a problem with your lying, concealing, government Frank. You see that dam FOIA has done it again, and your incompetent gatekeepers have fallen prey again. Now, according to the FAA - the plane DID fly in north of the Citgo Gas Station, and completely void of hitting any of the downed poles - OOOOOOPS! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Official FAA animation of Flight 77... north of the Citgo, north of the poles.

Now what Frank? Care to straighten this all out for us? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />

What knocked down those poles?

..which is why, when you post unending lists of quotes from people within the government, and specifically government personnel in recovery of the crime scene <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I just chuckle. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The government telling me they've recovered remains from a plane that they also claim liquefied and disintegrated on impact as it pierced through its own 16 foot hole following the downing of 5 light poles that it clipped but didn't clip is just a little bit stupid in conjunction with claiming recovery personal exhumed bodies still strapped to the seats.

Got one of those seats for us to look at Frank? Can we put a name to this account? How about a coroner's report? Got a body you get a report right? Fact:
Quote
The responsibility to identify and autopsy each of the decedents [of all three crime scenes] fell to the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner, part of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, headquartered in Washington, DC.


Now once again you conclude with the trusty character assasination of 'Phil don't know jack.'

I'm gonna continue to go easy on you Frank. I'm not even going to get into the other crime scenes - I'll stick with the Pentagon because we really aren't even scratching the surface yet. In fact I'm gonna give you heads up. We're gonna look more closely at some of these witness acounts. We're gonna look at the C-130, and where it was found next in our storyline of that day.

So quick - google! google fast! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/22/08 10:35 PM

You're getting hysterical now. Good. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Dance on this:

1) How did all those people ride in on a missile?

2) Where did Flight 77 land?

When you quit looking at all the BS about what couldn't have happened and look at reality, maybe you'll find peace. But until then, probably not.

Merry Christmas!

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/22/08 11:09 PM

Response duly noted. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Merry Christmas to you too Frank.

Edit:

Quote
When you quit looking at all the BS about what couldn't have happened


What couldn't have happened particularly? What part of a conclusion that criminal elements within the government staged 9-11 as a pretext to war and renunciation of civil liberties could not have happened?

Let's see what our government has dreamed up in the past:
Quote
8. It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner enroute from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight.

a. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.

b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will being transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction of the aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow ICAO radio stations in the Western Hemisphere to tell the US what has happened to the aircraft instead of the US trying to "sell" the incident.

~Operation Northwoods or "Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba " Drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, 1962


And I'm the crazy one <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> Downing Street Memo anyone?
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/23/08 12:09 AM

Old school tactics.

Quote
a. Incidents to establish a credible attack (not in chronological order):
(1) start rumors (many). Use clandestine radio.
(2) Land friendly Cubans in uniform "over-the-fence" to stage attack on base.

(3) Capture Cuban (friendly) saboteurs inside the base.

(4) Start riots near the base main gate (friendly Cubans).

(5) Blow up ammunition inside the base; start fires.

(6) Burn aircraft on air base (sabotage).

(7) Lob mortar shells from outside of base into base. Some damage to installations.

(8) capture assault teams approaching from the sea or vicinity of Guantanamo City.

(9) Capture militia group which storms the base.

(10) Sabotage ship in harbor; large fires -- napthalene.

(11) Sink ship near harbor entrance. Conduct funerals for mock-victims (may be lieu of (10)).

b. United States would respond by executing offensive operations to secure water and power supplies, destroying artillery and mortar emplacements which threaten the base.

c. Commence large scale United States military operations.

3. A "Remember the Maine" incident could be arranged in several forms:

a. We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba.
b. We could blow up a drone (unmanned) vessel anywhere in the Cuban waters. We could arrange to cause such incident in the vicinity of Havana or Santiago as a spectacular result of Cuban attack from the air or sea, or both. The presence of Cuban planes or ships merely investigating the intent of the vessel could be fairly compelling evidence that the ship was taken under attack. The nearness to Havana or Santiago would add credibility especially to those people that might have heard the blast or have seen the fire. The US could follow up with an air/sea rescue operation covered by US fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existent crew. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation.

4. We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington. The terror campaign could be pointed at refugees seeking haven in the United States. We could sink a boatload of Cubans en route to Florida (real or simulated). We could foster attempts on lives of Cuban refugees in the United States even to the extent of wounding in instances to be widely publicized. Exploding a few plastic bombs in carefully chosen spots, the arrest of Cuban agents and the release of prepared documents substantiating Cuban involvement, also would be helpful in projecting the idea of an irresponsible government.

5. A "Cuban-based, Castro-supported" filibuster could be simulated against a neighboring Caribbean nation (in the vein of the 14th of June invasion of the Dominican Republic). We know that Castro is backing subversive efforts clandestinely against Haiti, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, and Nicaragua at present and possible others. These efforts can be magnified and additional ones contrived for exposure. For example, advantage can be taken of the sensitivity of the Dominican Air Force to intrusions within their national air space. "Cuban" B-26 or C-46 type aircraft could make cane-burning raids at night. Soviet Bloc incendiaries could be found. This could be coupled with "Cuban" messages to the Communist underground in the Dominican Republic and "Cuban" shipments of arm which would be found, or intercepted, on the beach.

6. Use of MIG type aircraft by US pilots could provide additional provocation. Harassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping and destruction of US military drone aircraft by MIG type planes would be useful as complementary actions. An F-86 properly painted would convince air passengers that they saw a Cuban MIG, especially if the pilot of the transport were to announce such fact. The primary drawback to this suggestion appears to be the security risk inherent in obtaining or modifying an aircraft. However, reasonable copies of the MIG could be produced from US resources in about three months.

7. Hijacking attempts against civil air and surface craft should appear to continue as harassing measures condoned by the government of Cuba. Concurrently, genuine defections of Cuban civil and military air and surface craft should be encouraged.

8. It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner en route from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight.

a. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.
b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled,to allow a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will being transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction of the aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow ICAO radio stations in the Western Hemisphere to tell the US what has happened to the aircraft instead of the US trying to " sell" the incident.

9. It Is possible to create an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack.

a. Approximately 4 or 5 F-101 aircraft will be dispatched in trail from Homestead AFB, Florida, to the vicinity of Cuba. Their mission will be to reverse course and simulate fakir aircraft for an air defense exercise in southern Florida. These aircraft would conduct variations of these flights at frequent Intervals. Crews would be briefed to remain at least 12 miles off the Cuban coast; however, they would be required to carry live ammunition in the event that hostile actions were taken by the Cuban MIGs.
b. On one such flight, a pre-briefed pilot would fly tail-end Charley at considerable interval between aircraft. While near the Cuban Island this pilot would broadcast that he had been jumped by MIGs and was going down. No other calls would be made. The pilot would then fly directly west at extremely low altitude and land at a secure base, an Eglin auxiliary. The aircraft would be met by the proper people, quickly stored and given a new tail number. The pilot who had performed the mission under an alias, would resume his proper identity and return to his normal place of business. The pilot and aircraft would then have disappeared.

c. At precisely the same time that the aircraft was presumably shot down a submarine or small surface craft would disburse F-101 parts, parachute, etc., at approximately 15 to 20 miles off the Cuban coast and depart. The pilots returning to Homestead would have a true story as far as they knew. Search ships and aircraft could be dispatched and parts of aircraft


From web page
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/23/08 01:51 AM

You guys are really funny...... this (or most any truth) is really simple:

1) Witnesses on the ground said the plane crashed into the Pentagon.

2) Boeing 757 debris is all over the crash site.

3) The passengers were found dead inside the Pentagon.

You're still saying a plane didn't crash into the Pentagon?

Santa's Watching this Conspiracy Theory

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/23/08 03:22 AM

Quote
Old school tactics.


Original document here
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/23/08 03:50 AM

Quote
Santa's Watching this Conspiracy Theory


Hate to break it to ya Frank but Santa isn't real. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/23/08 06:15 AM

June 1, 2001. Shoot down orders protocol changed. Sole responsibility of the Secretary of Defense. Field commanders stripped of any and all authority to act. Rescinded after 9-11.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/23/08 10:38 AM

Quote
Original document here


Quote
June 1, 2001. Shoot down orders protocol changed. Sole responsibility of the Secretary of Defense.


That sort of stuff has about as much to do with the events of Flight 77 as the Emancipation Proclamation. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

1) Eyewitnesses saw the plane crash into the Pentagon.
2) Boeing 757 debris was found inside the Pentagon crash site.
3) The passengers from Flight 77 were in the wreckage.

Do you think that sane people are going to believe that's not true because you point out that:

1) The government employs liars?
2) Tactical think tank members sometimes concoct crazy ideas?
3) We have cruise missiles available?

You might as well say you can prove a plane didn't hit the Pentagon because Pizza Hut once ran out of pepperoni. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/23/08 11:47 PM

LOLZ @ 'tactical think tank members'. It was the Joint Chiefs of Staff. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Reviewed by the Sec of Defense. Kennedy sacked him.

Quote
1) Eyewitnesses saw the plane crash into the Pentagon.
2) Boeing 757 debris was found inside the Pentagon crash site.
3) The passengers from Flight 77 were in the wreckage.


1) The majority of eyewitness didn't see the plane crash into the building. They saw a plane, then they saw an explosion. The topography of the Pentagon site and surrounding area (in a depression) makes viewing the ground levels of the Pentagon where it was impacted difficult from any perspective. Still others saw it fly over. So to selectively use witnesses that claim they saw it hit is...selective.

2) No evidence has ever been produced to demonstrate a 60+ ton 757 crashed into the building. None. Furthermore, the coincidence theory explanation for the small impact damage is explained within the context that the airliner "vaporized", "liquified", "disintegrated" on impact - Which directly contradicts any possibility of your #3 claim. We have a wheel - that fits the specs of a multitude of aircraft. We have one engine rotor that doesn't fit the specs of a 757 or a 757 APU - according to the manufacturers statements when asked. Futhermore, unless it is a Purdue design 757, this plane has two engines 6-7 tons each, comprised mostly of titanium. One very small, undersized rotor doesn't cut it for an explanation that a 757 hit the building:

[Linked Image]

3)Since there is no proof that the wreckege was from AA 77, there can hardly be proof of its passengers. What is claimed is 100% hearsay. There is no source for the claim. There is no proof of the claim. And of course - such a claim contradicts the official claim in #2. There are photos of victims that were released as evidence photos in the Mousauii trail I believe - they are victims that were in the building - why not show us these victims strapped in the seats?

And of course - Why not show us the 80+ tapes?

I'll tell you why:

North of the Citgo, north of the light poles.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/24/08 02:36 AM

Perhaps it'll help if I use the same logic as you do:

Plane Crashes Into Building

From that we can deduct that planes fly into buildings, so therefore Flight 77 indeed crashed into the Pentagon.

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/24/08 04:18 AM

Not if people saw it fly beyond the pentagon - and over the river.

Its like this Frank

Reread Operation Northwoods.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/24/08 01:25 PM

From Northwoods to 9-11 is a leap in logic and completely irrelevant.

Quote
Not if people saw it fly beyond the pentagon - and over the river.


That would be some sleight of hand...... even for David Copperfield. How large would a hand need to be to palm a 757? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Since there are 2 groups of people who saw different things, it's reasonable to assume that one group is mistaken. If you want to assume that the plane flew over the Pentagon, then for your version to be plausible, you need to answer 2 questions with witnesses:

1) What became of the plane?

2) What became of the people?

The official story answers those 2 questions - so if you want any credibility at all, you'll need an alternative completion to the story line.

Let's hear it.

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/24/08 06:57 PM

Quote
The official story answers those 2 questions - so if you want any credibility at all, you'll need an alternative completion to the story line.


1) Show me the plane

2) Show me the people...

1) "The plane disintegrated on impact through a 16 foot hole - wings, engines, tail, everything."

2 "The people were found still strapped in their seats"

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You can't have it both ways Frank. Perhaps you could provide some interviews with those that saw the plane actually hit the Pentagon? Perhaps we could see one of the 80+ tapes of the plane hitting the Pentagon? What are they hiding Frank? Why not show us the tapes?
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/24/08 08:27 PM

Quote
1) "The plane disintegrated on impact through a 16 foot hole - wings, engines, tail, everything."

2 "The people were found still strapped in their seats"


Now you're gettin' it right..... 'bout time.

They don't have to show you squat. There was testimony enough for investigators - and published for public consumption. If that's not good enough, get another investigation opened...... but you'd better have more than what you've got, 'cause you ain't got squat.

9-11 "Truthers" could probably better spend their time investigating the price of beans. Since the government says the price of beans is due to something as silly as supply and demand, I would think it easy for you to prove that the government conspiracy to produce ethanol from beans was authored to drive up the price of beans and bail out the government's bean subsidy that was draining money available for farm appropriations. And Al Gore was also surely involved because he thought that reduced bean consumption would lead to lower greenhouse gas emissions. Just think of the gratitude you could get from old folks living on fixed incomes who depend on beans for ummmmmm..... fiber...... and think what it would do to stop the influx of illegal immigrants looking for money to pay for the worldwide escalating price of chili beans.

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: hazy_daze

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/24/08 10:15 PM

Better than TV, I tell ya <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/25/08 06:06 AM

Easy on the mulled wine there Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote
There was testimony enough for investigators - and published for public consumption.


I'm afraid you lost your marbles <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

You wouldn't be referring to this would you?

(9-11 Commission report published in comic book format)

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Quote
They don't have to show you squat.


Thats what they said <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ...to the victim's families

Why don't they have to show me squat Frank? Last I checked this was supposed to be a government of the peeps, by the peeps, for the peeps - not the sheeps, nor the cat herders.

If its a slam dunk why not show the tapes?

So - could you just explain to me how a plane that disintegrates on impact...literally 'vaporized' according to the government - still retrieve bodies strapped to the seats? I said the engines were made out of titanium - not the passengers <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And lastly "I don't have squat". Ok. The Pentagon cops and other witnesses closest to the scene are all on crack and telepathically hallucinating with each other. You've got the squat! The latest data, from your government: North of the citgo, north of the poles

Take it easy on the holiday. Kick back and brush up on your main points. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />


...Spats aside - merry Christmas all <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/25/08 07:07 AM

I'm not getting sound on the home PC, so I can't speak as to what is said, but watching it satifies me. What problems do you guys have with this explanation?

web page

If your opinion is that it wasn't a plane, explain the damage to the generators.
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/25/08 08:28 AM

Have to admit, I watched a couple other vids, that do kind of raise some questions, but I'm still going with the official story...until I see something more concrete.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/25/08 12:06 PM

Quote
....I'm still going with the official story...until I see something more concrete.


Here's some concrete

Titanium passengers? No, I would expect that the passengers in the front of the plane to be smashed to bits, but once the hole was opened by however much of the airplane required to penetrate the wall, there would possibly be recognizable human forms toward the rear of the remainder of the airplane.... likely those in the center seats.

I don't think anyone is qualified to say what happens when a plane flies into a concrete wall.... unless he personally examines the wreckage.

Quote
If its a slam dunk why not show the tapes?


Show the tapes! Show us the tapes! Now that's where the whine comes into the picture. Here, "truthers" sound like a 4 year old who doesn't get what he wants. I suppose the reasons for not showing the tapes could be one of several - take your choice:

1) Respect for family members of passengers.
2) So the method isn't glorified for copy-cats to attempt.
3) Just to p*ss you off.

As for all of the listed "coincidences" - so what? If every one of those was answered, it still doesn't answer:

1) Where's the plane?
2) Where are the passengers?

This is beginning to remind me of the Mpemba Effect.

Merry Christmas! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />

Frank
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/26/08 12:19 AM

Quote
Show the tapes! Show us the tapes! Now that's where the whine comes into the picture. Here, "truthers" sound like a 4 year old who doesn't get what he wants


Or like sheep to their shepherd.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I cant say for sure because a good point is we were not there. It has always looked suspicious to me simply because of the fact that it WAS THE PENTAGON. All that money spent on defense and we cant even keep a few crazies with box cutters from flying a airliner into it? From what I have read in the past no plane could stray from their flight pattern to ever even get that close or they would be shot down.

Bush also said he saw the first plane hit the first tower on TV and thought "he must be a terrible pilot". (<---edit for misquote) The footage of the first liner was only seen after footage was aquired from private sources which was later that day..... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Not fighting, just talking. Merry Christmas. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Grasscat

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/26/08 03:10 AM

Quote
The footage of the first liner was only seen after footage was aquired from private sources which was later that day.....


Are you sure about that? I seem to remember seeing both planes hitting the towers when I turn on the news a 7:00 am.

I didn't know the Pentagon had weapons to shoot down airplanes. There's no way a fighter would of had time to do it.
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/26/08 04:03 AM

Quote
I seem to remember seeing both planes hitting the towers when I turn on the news a 7:00 am.


I dont see how you could have seen the first plane hit the tower at 7:00 AM Cali time.

Florida and NY are in the same time zones.... No news agency just had cameras waiting for the first collision at 8:45 AM. They did however get thier hands on private footage by survellance cameras and individuals that just happened to be filming the skyline but way afer the fact. By the time emergency crews, news agencies, private citizens ETC had responded to the first attack they were well able to capture the second attack on film, digitals, cell phones, ETC.

I'm curious how GB saw the first plane hit before he went into the classroom. And if he did indeed see the first plane hit, why on gods green Earth did he continue with the little cameo with the school kids and even waited 7 minutes after he heard the second on hit? The stuff does'nt add up. To my knowledge nodody saw the first collision on film until later that day or maybe even the next day. Again not saying he is guilty but WTF?

They were showing the second collision all day then they finally aired this clip on CNN. web page
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 12/31/08 08:45 AM

Quote
I'm curious how GB saw the first plane hit before he went into the classroom. And if he did indeed see the first plane hit, why on gods green Earth did he continue with the little cameo with the school kids and even waited 7 minutes after he heard the second on hit? The stuff does'nt add up. To my knowledge nodody saw the first collision on film until later that day or maybe even the next day. Again not saying he is guilty but WTF?


True - reading "My Pet Goat"...upside down.

Quote
If your opinion is that it wasn't a plane, explain the damage to the generators.


I think it could be a plane - just not 60 ton airliner. How the generator could be hit and yet the cable spools remain right in front of impact point is just another enigma that will remain as such - till we see the original, unedited, tapes.

Quote
Have to admit, I watched a couple other vids, that do kind of raise some questions, but I'm still going with the official story...until I see something more concrete.


What did you see Stony? I'll tell you if you wasted your time or not. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Loose Change Final Cut is a good start
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/02/09 06:17 AM



Quote
Ya...I saw that too. Definately made me go...

I'm getting the feeling that if there really is a conspiracy and weird things happening, they just don't even feel the need to hide it anymore. After all, Paulson can now openly hand tax payer billions to his former employer and now the government is actually sponsering and encouraging banks to gobble up smaller ones...and we're all just standing around with our head up our stupid asses, wonder who's gonna play in the superbowl.


USA Today - Terrorism drills part of passing torch :

"White House officials have not said what specific scenarios will be played out in next month's exercises. One overriding concern since 2001 has been the possibility that Washington comes under attack. In that case, plans would need to be in place for the replacement of key government officials.

'They would be smart to be thinking about these things,' says John Fortier, executive director of the Continuity of Government Commission..."

I guess we'll see. Like 9-11 and 7-7 London, always a convenient diversion for would be responders.
Posted By: Tag

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/03/09 03:08 AM

Assuming it was all set up what was the advantage of replacing the airplane with whatever is believed to have hit the Pentagon?



So how many people under investigation came out ahead when building 7 went down?
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/03/09 07:24 AM

Quote
Assuming it was all set up what was the advantage of replacing the airplane with whatever is believed to have hit the Pentagon?


That's a valid question with a million possibilities. 60 tons of mass would have (in many's opinion) created a much larger damage area - certainly more that a small hole with front support pillars intact. Keep in mind whatever hit it hit in the only area to have undergone extensive fortification to the outer walls - another convenient coincidence. So minimized damage to the building/personnel is one possibility. Maybe there wasn't another airliner available to drone in on its target. Somebody knew something about AA and UA before the attacks - Put options on AA and UA stocks in the couple of days preceding were 285X their average. And perhaps a 'sleight of hand' was more feasible logistically and financially. Maybe nothing hit it - there was a quite a few Pentagon folks who smelled cordite and called it out by name, many other described a shock concussion wave experienced around explosives.

Quote
So how many people under investigation came out ahead when building 7 went down?


I'm quite sure no one has ever come under investigation <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But yeah - Silverstein the new lease holder (who took out an unprecedented 99 yr lease on the buildings just 4 months earlier) scored big time on his investment. Got them for a song due to the fact that compliance with asbestos removal was slated at over $1 billion. With insurance claims and return of the initial $125 million by the Port Authority, his $380 million investment netted him about $2 Billion. Not bad for a dude who's only claim to fame prior was his Laotian heroin laundering operation at his nightclub in Queens 10 years before.

And of course there's all that gold that was in WTC4 that was found deserted in vans under WTC 1&2 when unearthed - wonder where that went. ah well.

7 years in the making - NIST's explanation of WTC7 collapse.

Scott Forbes

another interview
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/03/09 12:19 PM

Quote
And perhaps a 'sleight of hand' was more feasible logistically and financially. Maybe nothing hit it - there was a quite a few Pentagon folks who smelled cordite and called it out by name, many other described a shock concussion wave experienced around explosives.


Must have been a huge hand. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As for the suspicious-sounding word, but ineffective low-explosive propellant product called cordite:

Quote
Cordite is now obsolete and it is no longer produced. Production ceased in the United Kingdom, around the end of the 20th century, with the closure of the last of the World War II Cordite factories, ROF Bishopton. However, Cordite propellant may still be encountered in the form of legacy ammunition dating from World War II onwards. The smell of Cordite is referenced erroneously in fiction to indicate the recent firing of weapons.


Cordite

So, I guess we're to believe that a Boeing 757 did a low flyover to distract everyone's attention while a main battle tank sauntered up to the Pentagon and blasted away without being seen and rode off down Pennsylvania Avenue while everybody was looking the other way. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Uhhhh - wat a minute......

1) Where's the plane?

2) Where are the passengers?

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/04/09 10:17 PM

I would guess these military professionals did not consult the infallible wikipedia before making thier statements.

Cordite is just a term for explosive powders - As is duly noted

Why can't we see the tapes Frank?

'Because' is not a legitimate nor intelligent answer.

So what brought down WTC 7?
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/04/09 11:12 PM

Quote
Cordite is just a term for explosive powders - As is duly noted


Whether anyone still maufactures the stuff is not the issue..... the issue is that cordite is a low yield, slow-burning explosive that was commonly used as a propellant. The reason that it was chosen for that job is because it doesn't burn fast enough - or hot enough - to damage gun barrels. The only use for the stuff in your scenario would be as a fuse or igniter for higher yield explosives placed inside the Pentagon - which if true would have caused the blast to blow the Pentagon wall outward..... which didn't happen even in the "Truthers" version of events.

Quote
Why can't we see the tapes Frank?

'Because' is not a legitimate nor intelligent answer.


Failure to understand the rationale already presented isn't very intelligent, either...... why feed the morbidly curious and copycats something that serves no purpose? Do you also want to see JFK's brains spattered all over the limo?

Quote
So what brought down WTC 7?


Who knows? Maybe one of those phantom sleight of hand missile thingys that nobody saw. Did they smell cordite there, too? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm more interested in the question posed by Michael (Grasscat):

Quote
He's not alone, after reading some of the post on the above site you posted, he has a few in his camp, but not many. I wonder why?


Now that question could have 2 meanings:

1) He wonders why you don't have many in your camp.....

-or-

2) He wonders why folks dream up this stuff.

I think he meant the former, but I was intrigued with the latter, so I've tried to find out an answer. It's not easy to understand some folks, but the best explanation seems to be found in the area of "Alternate Reality" - here's an example:

Quote
There's a guy named Lindsey Williams on YouTube, claiming that there is 200 years' worth of oil in Alaska's north shore, and that the IMF and World Bank, along with President Bush and Dick Cheney, are withholding that information from the public. How much of this is true, and if we drilled those fields, what would be the overall impact on the U.S. economy?
— Gail D.

Not true.

No one knows how much oil is underground, but geologists have made pretty extensive surveys of Alaskan oil. Even the most optimistic estimates suggest there might be enough to cover a decade’s worth of current U.S. consumption.

But plenty of people are convinced that there are 200 years' worth of oil up there and that the reason we don't know about this is the cover-up. (Which, of course, would also have to include all the people it took to survey those oilfields along with the people who analyze the data.) You'll find plenty of people willing to explain how this is just a piece of a much bigger conspiracy to manipulate oil prices.

In fact, there’s a whole alternate reality available to viewers of YouTube documentaries, which help fill the Answer Desk inbox with a steady stream of endlessly amusing and increasingly absurd conspiracy theories. Apparently, to make one of these, all you have to do is "connect the dots." That must be why there are so many of them.

More and more readers, it seems, are happy to live in this alternate reality these days. Given the current state of the current real reality, we can’t really blame them.

Of course, many of these conspiracy “documentaries” also hint — or claim outright — that "mainstream" journalists like me are part of the cover-up.

So I guess you’ll never really know.


web page

But then there's the Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich connection:

Quote
About 90 percent of the hate mail I’ve received supporting Ron Paul comes from Truther nuts. Why is that? Just watch the video of that meeting between Paul and the Student Scholars for 9/11 Truth:



Transcript of the Truther-pandering exchange:

Student: …we’ve heard that you have questioned the government’s official account.

Paul: Well, I never automatically trust anything the government does when they do an investigation because too often I think there’s an area that the government covered up, whether it’s the Kennedy assassination or whatever.

“Whether it’s the Kennedy assassination or whatever?”

Yes, friends, we are in grassy knoll territory. And the Truthers certainly think they know what Paul is signaling when he said “or whatever.”

The student follows up after Paul gives a speech:

Student: So I just wanted to say, you know, we’ve talked to Dennis Kucinich and he says that he’s willing to, you know, investigate it. He would advocate for a new investigation.

Paul: Into 9/11?

Student: Yeah, into 9/11. I mean, if it was Dennis Kucinich and you, there’d be congressional support. You know what I mean? So you wouldn’t be the only one.

Paul: It’d be bipartisan, too. And I’ve worked with Dennis a lot on a lot of these issues.

Student: So I mean, would you advocate for a new investigation into 9/11?

Paul: Yes, I think we have to look at the details of it.


Trutheriness and Ron Paul

Actually, I think the Alternate Reality and Ron Paul/Dennis Kucinich ideas both work together to form a sort of parallel universe or multiverse doctrine of anti-government with a smattering of intrigue for the gullible and easily brainwashed who never see the problem in their story with not finding answers to:

1) Where's the plane?

2) Where are the people?

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/05/09 02:41 AM

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/sleeping.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Failure to understand the rationale already presented isn't very intelligent, either...... why feed the morbidly curious and copycats something that serves no purpose? Do you also want to see JFK's brains spattered all over the limo?


What rationale? That planes do indeed vaporize yet leave their passengers still sitting their seats? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Morbidly curious eh? Yeah, it's all just a 'curiosity' for anyone that sees a connection between 9-11 and the loss of liberties and military expansionism. You go Frank! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the MSNBC BS - you really set us all straight there. I mean - this is Gail at MSNBC - If anyone DOESN'T have their head up their <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> its gotta be the 'Answer Desk' gal Gail. I'm glad to see that the oil surveys referenced were only dealing with the north slope area - cuz we all know there's no way there could be oil anywhere else - especially in that tiny state of AK. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Funny thing about this crack pot that happened to work up there for years. He said in early July (on Alex Jones no less)(when oil was at $145) his oil executive sources told him oil would be in the $50's late fall. Funny Gail didn't bring that up. 'Morbidly' funny.

I mean only a wack job could 'dream' up something like that. Perhaps you have a conspiracy theory behind that one for us too <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cyclops.gif" alt="" /> Lemme guess - "Coincidence" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />

And...predictably, we have another straw man. This time via the informed, brilliant mind of another hack - Michelle Malkin. This one is a little weirder now though...Apparently Ron Paul is discredited because Truthers support Ron Paul and he supports a new investigation. The Truthers are discredited cuz they support Ron Paul cuz...he supports the 'anti-government' idea of returning to the Constitution, transparency...???...something like that.

[Linked Image]

Where is the plane Frank?

Where are the passengers? "They said" is proof of nothing.

Where are the tapes? Why can't I see the tapes? If its a slam dunk why not just show us the tapes?
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/05/09 04:13 AM

Quote
Where is the plane Frank?

Where are the passengers? "They said" is proof of nothing.


It's more proof than not having a clue, yet believing the plane did a "flyover" to who knows where..... and that the personal effects of passengers that were returned to the families of victims were what..... lies?

Quote
Where are the tapes? Why can't I see the tapes? If its a slam dunk why not just show us the tapes?


Either quit whining...... or go file a Freedom of Information Act request with the Supreme Court. Demand it of them - you can do it. Go prove your paranoid Alternate Reality suspicions or leave it alone.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/sleeping.gif" alt="" />

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/05/09 06:08 AM

They've been requested infinite times. The doctored Doubletree video is the result of lawsuit. 'National security' was the response for the remainder. Maybe you could explain that one for me.

Why these sort of things have to be requested in the first place is a graver concern.

Returning personal effects and DNA samples is not proof of a jet liquefying through a fortified building and in fact contradicts the claim. It simply means they were murdered.

The burden of proof doesn't rest on the one providing evidence that a claim is false - the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. That's pretty basic stuff.

Other than knickers and wigs, I'm cool with 'whiners' <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Grasscat

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/05/09 07:16 AM

Quote
Returning personal effects and DNA samples is not proof of a jet liquefying through a fortified building and in fact contradicts the claim. It simply means they were murdered.


Your sick!!!
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/05/09 01:05 PM

Quote
Your sick!!!


Yep - and he even said my kind made him so. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I think he's now gone completely 'round the corner. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />

Here's a debunker's litany of humor.... describing the "Loose Change" video production (you remember the one with all the drama) as a product of information garnered from AFP - described as an "anti-Zionist, conspiracy-promoting opinion paper"....... and particularly humorous is the exposure of one of the better-known 9-11 Truther contributors - Karl W B Schwarz - as a BS'ing fraudulent con-artist:

Loose Change 2nd Edition Viewer Guide

I think I see how Jonestown began. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/05/09 04:29 PM

How is that sick? Seriously. Explain it to me. Or is this another batsh** post?

You (and your government) are sick.

Karl B Schwarz? Never heard of the guy. Musta been before I got into 'dreaming this up'. And there is a newer edition to LooseChange that I've already posted. Care to share any 'debunker' links on that? Nonetheless I don't recall any drama in it - it was mostly news clips. Could you share with us some of these drama segments? You're really up on all this aren't you Frank? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Grasscat

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/05/09 07:44 PM

Quote
It simply means they were murdered.


Murdered by whom?



Why are you on 4x4Wire?

I've look back for a year of your posting, and the only place you post is here or the off topic forum. There was one post on the Mitsubishi forum for a Craigslist item.

So why are you here, you have contribute nothing on the subject of four wheeling?
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/05/09 08:34 PM

I would assume by very same who refuse to tell us the truth.

Quote

Why are you on 4x4Wire?


Why do you think?

Why are you posting on the Off topic forum? Why aren't you contributing to the subject of 4 wheeling?

Are you advocating censorship of those you don't have an answer for?
Posted By: StockRaider

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/06/09 12:27 AM

I prefer Unfastened Coins. Much better conspiracy video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saHs6J0OXVI <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/06/09 01:20 AM

That's funny. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I think the conspiracy theorists should get to work on Abe Lincoln's legacy - John Wilkes Booth just had to be working for the Secret Service. After all, Lincoln signed the order which founded the Secret Service to investigate counterfeiters on the day before he was shot by Booth:

History of the U.S Secret Service

Yet, the conspiracy theorists can't even make the connection between that "coincidence" and Lincoln's demise:

Seize the Night

I'm really expecting to one day find out that the 9-11 Truther gang is nothing more than a pyramid scheme, where someone starts a rumor, recruits some followers, spreads some juicy-sounding stuff to appeal to anti-government buffs, gets them all whipped into a frenzy and asks for money to "find the truth". Those in on the deal early get a piece of the action from those they recruit. The poor gullible ones that dwell on the stuff will be left holding the bag.

There seems to even be a political party in the making - sure to be looking for donations:

Quote
To get the message out, the movement has gone beyond bumper stickers and "Kumbaya" into political action.

There is a plan, Mr. Berger said, to create a fund to support candidates on a 9/11 platform. There is a plan to create a network of college campus groups. There is a plan by the British delegation (such as it is, so far) to get members of Parliament to watch "Loose Change," the seminal movement DVD.


New York Times

Nutty fruitcakes - or a political movement looking for "funds"? You decide......

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/06/09 03:02 AM

Man, talk about conspiracy theory <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Nice way to speak of the victim's families <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" />

I'm really expecting to one day find out that the WMD's/ Saddam-aided-al-Quaeda frothing crowd is nothing more than a pyramid scheme, where someone starts a rumor, recruits some followers, spreads some juicy-sounding stuff to appeal to ra-ra-militarization buffs, gets them all whipped into a frenzy and then spends a Trillion of thier bucks to "find the truth". Those in on the deal early get a piece of the action from those they recruit. The poor gullible ones that dwell on the stuff will be left holding the bag.

Nutty fruitcakes - or a political movement looking for "funds"? You decide......

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Grasscat

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/06/09 04:20 AM

Quote

I would assume by very same who refuse to tell us the truth.


So your saying the government killed those people?

Quote
Why do you think?


I really don't know, I've never seen a 4 wheeling post from you. So I assume your here to spread your conspiracy junk.



Quote
Why are you posting on the Off topic forum? Why aren't you contributing to the subject of 4 wheeling?


This is not the off topic forum, but I do post there also.
I would not normally post here but your post are so way out in left field I just have to respond sometime, against my better judgment, I might add.

As far as me contributing to the subject of 4 wheeling, do a search, you'll find you answer.
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/06/09 06:27 AM

Hey, to be fair, Phil has contributed a lot to the Wire, in the Mitsu section, anyway. He was very active over there when I first started coming here...before he "changed". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I disagree with a lot you say Phil, but I just know that we'd have a good time fishing, hunting, or wheeling. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Grasscat

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/06/09 06:46 AM

I hear you Stony, but I've never seen it. I'll search farther back, maybe I can learn something from his post.

I've had enough of this post, lets agree to disagree Phil. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/06/09 12:31 PM

I couldn't help but notice that you had no response to the musings about a political party organized and funded through 9-11 Truther schemes. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The deeper into this stuff I peer, the funnier it gets:

Quote
On September 11, 2006, Democracy Now! broadcast a discussion between the Loose Change creators and editors from Popular Mechanics, where they debated various aspects of the documentary.[20] Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone has written that the "9/11 truth movement": "gives supporters of Bush an excuse to dismiss critics of this administration. I have no doubt that every time one of those Loose Change dickwads opens his mouth, a Republican somewhere picks up five votes."[38]

Chris Farrell, the Director of Investigations & Research at Judicial Watch, warned in an interview that his organization "could be the water carriers for a honey pot operation, in which the government attracts overwhelming attention to the Pentagon issue, making it the cornerstone of the "9/11 truth movement", and then blowing it out of the water by releasing clear footage of Flight 77."[54] He stated, "Let's just call it a baited trap, it draws somebody into a situation in which they're compromised."

According to George Monbiot, "The film's greatest flaw is this: the men who made it are still alive. If the US government is running an all-knowing, all-encompassing conspiracy, why did it not snuff them out long ago? There is only one possible explanation. They are in fact agents of the Bush regime, employed to distract people from its real abuses of power. This, if you are inclined to believe such stories, is surely a more plausible theory than the one proposed in Loose Change."[55]


Loose Change

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/07/09 07:18 AM

Thanks Stony. Never thought I'd need to vindicated on a forum I've been a member of for 6+ yrs. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> Nonetheless I don't have much to say for the mighy Mitsu that I haven't already contributed. I don't have much to ask either - my beast is running fine and in its final state

...well that's not true. Smacks booster in the works - Based on the current level of skepticism concerning reality I'm sure I'll get 'smack' conspiracy claims that I'm in doing it to 'disrupt society', start a political party, or somehow deviously make money off an open source, howbeit completely bogus, design <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> ...But I'll be sure to post my results to maintain my worthiness of this board's membership. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Agree to disagree is fine Grasscat - but I hope somewhere down the road when things are much further down the crapper that my attempt to plant a seed of doubt regarding the largely fictitious left/right paradigm and all the misappropriated allegiance and support of neo-fascist, socialistic, imperialistic policies that goes with it will strike some chord of remembrance. Then its worth all the flaming (and it certainly isn't just here) I'm bound to receive:

“Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government;… whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them to rights.”

-Thomas Jefferson

Quote
I couldn't help but notice that you had no response to the musings about a political party organized and funded through 9-11 Truther schemes.


Sigh...

I couldn't help but notice you had no response for the testimony of witnesses closest to a plane that we are told - hit the light poles, the building, and incinerated everything except the victims
...nor the diametrically opposing data of the FAA vs. the NTSB flight paths
...nor the fact the FDR put the plane at 400 ft above the Pentagon at the impact point
...nor the testimony of FAA director Norman Mineta
...nor the testimony of April Gallup, who walked out of the impact hole with her son
...nor the fact that Hanjour couldn't even check out in a 172 for lack of piloting skills
...nor the testimony of Barry Jennings
...nor the testimony of Scott Forbes
...nor the fact that the administration directly changed the EPA statement regarding ground zero air quality to one of no cause for concern - lies which have mortally affected the health and life of 50,000 rescue and cleanup workers
...nor the fact that half of the victims families believe 9-11 was an inside job
...nor the laughable contradictions of the NIST's report regarding the fires which miraculously caused only the third collapse of a steel framed skyscraper in history - the first two being WTC 1&2.
...nor the fact that shoot down orders were changed 4 months prior to the event and rescinded afterwards
...nor why the 'science' of the FL 77's crash is depicted sans two 6 ton engines and a tail fin that enters a building intact.
...nor a simple rational reason why citizens of the United States are forbidden from seeing the visual evidence of a plane hitting the Pentagon from over 85 surveillance tapes CONFISCATED.

Get back to me on those and I'll be happy to waste my time with this 'musing'. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/sleeping.gif" alt="" />

The deeper into this stuff I peer, the funnier it gets:

Pop Mechanics 'factchecker' doofus ...s on the Charles Goyette show - MP3 file
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/07/09 12:35 PM

Quote
I hope somewhere down the road when things are much further down the crapper that my attempt to plant a seed of doubt regarding the largely fictitious left/right paradigm and all the misappropriated allegiance and support of neo-fascist, socialistic, imperialistic policies that goes with it will strike some chord of remembrance. Then its worth all the flaming (and it certainly isn't just here) I'm bound to receive:


I suppose that right there is the heart of the 9-11 Truther rationale for acceptance, belief and spreading of a lie when the truth makes more sense.

As for your questions:

1) "...you had no response for the testimony of witnesses closest to a plane that we are told - hit the light poles, the building, and incinerated everything except the victims."

Everything wasn't incinerated, despite mis-statements of witnesses and/or Truthers. Plenty of plane parts and some charred remains of passengers remained - of course, those plane parts don't fit the Truther's version of events.

2) & 3)... "...nor the diametrically opposing data of the FAA vs. the NTSB flight paths
...nor the fact the FDR put the plane at 400 ft above the Pentagon at the impact point"

If you've ever used radar, you'll understand ground clutter, echo, ghosts.... and many other anomalies that exist within the application of the science:

Quote
Clutter may also originate from multipath echoes from valid targets due to ground reflection, atmospheric ducting or ionospheric reflection/refraction. This specific clutter type is especially bothersome, since it appears to move and behave like other normal (point) targets of interest, thereby creating a ghost. In a typical scenario, an aircraft echo is multipath-reflected from the ground below, appearing to the receiver as an identical target below the correct one. The radar may try to unify the targets, reporting the target at an incorrect height, or - worse - eliminating it on the basis of jitter or a physical impossibility. These problems can be overcome by incorporating a ground map of the radar's surroundings and eliminating all echoes which appear to originate below ground or above a certain height. In newer Air Traffic Control (ATC) radar equipment, algorithms are used to identify the false targets by comparing the current pulse returns, to those adjacent, as well as calculating return improbabilities due to calculated height, distance, and radar timing.


Radar

The rest of your questions are irrelevant..... and a feeble attempt by Truthers to say "Just look at this and ignore the man behind the curtain."

The government murdered the passengers and then returned their personal effects to their next-of-kin? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" /> I'll need to see some proof of that preposterous tale.

What happened to the plane?

Frank
Posted By: StockRaider

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/07/09 02:46 PM

I have only 1 thing to say on this subject. How would you expect people to pull off such a massive plan like that and expect it wouldnt leak out? I mean we couldn't keep torture a secret in Guantanamo Bay. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Brown81CJ5

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/07/09 05:03 PM

Quote
I have only 1 thing to say on this subject. How would you expect people to pull off such a massive plan like that and expect it wouldnt leak out? I mean we couldn't keep torture a secret in Guantanamo Bay. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


I agree with this one...and am on Frank's side about this one....

If indeed (I highly doubt it) the govt. did pull off what you are trying to say Bretwalda...then we are all truly in danger...not just us US citizens, but the entire human species; and the govt. is more evil and disgusting than anyone can ever imagine.
Posted By: Grasscat

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/07/09 06:57 PM

Quote
plant a seed


Never going to happen, your farming skills are lacking.

Quote
(and it certainly isn't just here)


That ought to tell you something right there. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/08/09 12:10 AM

Quote
Everything wasn't incinerated, despite mis-statements of witnesses and/or Truthers. Plenty of plane parts and some charred remains of passengers remained - of course, those plane parts don't fit the Truther's version of events.


Of course, those parts don't fit a 757 version of an airplane either <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...unless you and Pop Mechanics have seen things the rest of us are allowed to see. Post some pics of these parts for us Frank. Lets see the obvious proof that a 757 hit the building. There's plenty of pics out there - you pick - show us the proof.

...But here again you sidestep. I'm talking about 13 independently interviewed witnesses that unanimously describe the exact same flight path that the FAA affirms. Each one even draws his perspective of the flight path on an arial map. They were not Truthers, they couldn't have unanimously misstated the same thing. So the coincidence theorists resort to an accusation of 'lies'. Remember, the government doesn't lie - only those that question the government. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />

Of course the FAA account is a huge problem for establishment apologists - because there is no way then that the light poles could have been knocked down - which begs the question, if it didn't - then what did? So now all of a sudden government data is selectively unreliable. We must find a means of obfuscating for this revelation. Aha! Radar data is bunk!

So lets take a look. When we look at the data and communications regarding this animation of the plane flying in north of the Citgo we find that this data is compiled from no less than four separate Radar TERMINAL APPROACH CONTROLS. These systems triangulate through multiple radars as well as transpond data between the aircraft and radars. Why? Because the system has to be accurate. Why? Because it is the key feature for regulating inbound aircraft and blending new incoming flights into the approach pattern. Not only that, but the closer to these radar systems, the more accurate the calculations. The Pentagon is about 3000ft from Reagan International Airport. Sorry Frank - "clutter" doesn't cut it. The evidence and eyewitness testimony affirms the huge holes in the official story.

Of course you can't even touch the NTSB data - because it is irrefutable - THE FLIGHT DATA RECORDER information puts the plane at 400 ft above the Pentagon at its impact point. This isn't 'radar clutter'. Its gathered from onboard systems including altimeter.

Quote
The rest of your questions are irrelevant..... and a feeble attempt by Truthers to say "Just look at this and ignore the man behind the curtain."


Well of course they're irrelevant - you've made up your mind. Bin Laden did it! We'll get into Tim Osman aka OBL shortly <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Quote
How would you expect people to pull off such a massive plan like that and expect it wouldnt leak out?


As I've said before - they didn't pull it off. We wouldn't be arguing about it if they did. And it did leak out - extensively.

Look into these people:
Indira Singh
Coleen Rowley,Division Counsel; FBI
House Rep (R) Curt Weldon and Able Danger
Sibel Edmonds, Language Specialist; FBI - recent documentary
John O Neil in conjunction with Jerry Hauer
Federal air marshal Bogdan Dzakovic
John M. Cole, Former Veteran Intelligence Operations Specialist; FBI
John Vincent, Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI
Robert Wright, Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI
Behrooz Sarshar, Language Specialist; FBI
Mike German, Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI
Gilbert Graham, Special Agent, Counterintelligence; FBI
Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Shaffer, DIA - responsible for Able Danger
Dick Stoltz, Special Agent; ATF
Randy Glass, funny how criminal informants are selectively dismissed or lauded depending on the agenda.

These are just some of more high profile figures. All of them (with the exception of O'Neil who coincidentally died in the towers) gave advanced warning regarding activities and/or people relating to the 9-11 plot. All of them turned away by their own agencies. All of their testimony either refused or redacted by the 9-11 Commission. And we aren't even scratching the surface. Mounds of leaked information, mounds of testimony by those on the inside who refuse to disclose their identity, etc.

Nonetheless, you're rationalizing that a trillion dollar megaplex of personnel, technology, and information available to those at the top with stated plans for a military and geopolitical revolution couldn't possibly pull off 9-11, couldn't conceive of it (see the Operation Northwoods documents)...and yet 19 guys and a kingpin hiding out out in a cave with a dialysis machine did - cuz they 'hate our freedums. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/drunk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/08/09 12:55 AM

Quote
Aha! Radar data is bunk!


Yes, Phil.... sometimes it is. You should operate one sometime - you might see just how reliable it can (or can't) be. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm sure my years of experience with it is of no consequence.

Quote
FAA and NORAD response
NEADS was informed about American Airlines Flight 77 at 9:34 a.m., four minutes before it crashed into the Pentagon.

American 77 began deviating from its flight plan at 8:54, with a slight turn toward the south. Two minutes later, it disappeared completely from radar at Indianapolis Center, which was controlling the flight.

The controller tracking American 77 told us he noticed the aircraft turning to the southwest, and then saw the data disappear. The controller looked for primary radar returns. He searched along the plane's projected flight path and the airspace to the southwest where it had started to turn. No primary targets appeared. He tried the radios, first calling the aircraft directly, then the air-line. Again there was nothing. At this point, the Indianapolis controller had no knowledge of the situation in New York. He did not know that other aircraft had been hijacked. He believed American 77 had experienced serious electrical or mechanical failure, or both, and was gone.

Shortly after 9:00, Indianapolis Center started notifying other agencies that American 77 was missing and had possibly crashed. At 9:08, Indianapolis Center asked Air Force Search and Rescue at Langley Air Force Base to look for a downed aircraft. The center also contacted the West Virginia State Police and asked whether any reports of a downed aircraft had been received. At 9:09, it reported the loss of contact to the FAA regional center, which passed this information to FAA headquarters at 9:24.

By 9:20, Indianapolis Center learned that there were other hijacked aircraft, and began to doubt its initial assumption that American 77 had crashed. A discussion of this concern between the manager at Indianapolis and the Command Center in Herndon prompted it to notify some FAA field facilities that American 77 was lost. By 9:21, the Command Center, some FAA field facilities, and American Airlines had started to search for American 77. They feared it had been hijacked. At 9:25, the Command Center advised FAA headquarters of the situation.

The failure to find a primary radar return for American 77 led us to investigate this issue further. Radar reconstructions performed after 9/11 reveal that FAA radar equipment tracked the flight from the moment its transponder was turned off at 8:56. But for 8 minutes and 13 seconds, between 8:56 and 9:05, this primary radar information on American 77 was not displayed to controllers at Indianapolis Center. The reasons are technical, arising from the way the software processed radar information, as well as from poor primary radar coverage where American 77 was flying.

According to the radar reconstruction, American 77 reemerged as a primary target on Indianapolis Center radar scopes at 9:05, east of its last known position. The target remained in Indianapolis Center's airspace for another six minutes, then crossed into the western portion of Washington Center's airspace at 9:10.As Indianapolis Center continued searching for the aircraft, two managers and the controller responsible for American 77 looked to the west and southwest along the flight's projected path, not east-where the aircraft was now heading. Managers did not instruct other controllers at Indianapolis Center to turn on their primary radar coverage to join in the search for American 77.

In sum, Indianapolis Center never saw Flight 77 turn around. By the time it reappeared in primary radar coverage, controllers had either stopped looking for the aircraft because they thought it had crashed or were looking toward the west. Although the Command Center learned Flight 77 was missing, neither it nor FAA headquarters issued an all points bulletin to surrounding centers to search for primary radar targets. American 77 traveled undetected for 36 minutes on a course heading due east for Washington, D.C.


Path of Flight 77By 9:25, FAA's Herndon Command Center and FAA headquarters knew two aircraft had crashed into the World Trade Center. They knew American 77 was lost. At least some FAA officials in Boston Center and the New England Region knew that a hijacker on board American 11 had said "we have some planes." Concerns over the safety of other aircraft began to mount. A manager at the Herndon Command Center asked FAA headquarters if they wanted to order a "nationwide ground stop." While this was being discussed by executives at FAA headquarters, the Command Center ordered one at 9:25.

The Command Center kept looking for American 77. At 9:21, it advised the Dulles terminal control facility, and Dulles urged its controllers to look for primary targets. At 9:32, they found one. Several of the Dulles controllers "observed a primary radar target tracking eastbound at a high rate of speed" and notified Reagan National Airport. FAA personnel at both Reagan National and Dulles airports notified the Secret Service. The aircraft's identity or type was unknown.

Reagan National controllers then vectored an unarmed National Guard C130H cargo aircraft, which had just taken off en route to Minnesota, to identify and follow the suspicious aircraft. The C-130H pilot spotted it, identified it as a Boeing 757, attempted to follow its path, and at 9:38, seconds after impact, reported to the control tower: "looks like that aircraft crashed into the Pentagon sir."


Debunk 911 Myths dot ORG


You need to read this:

Losing Flight 77



Quote
....see the Operation Northwoods documents


<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> Operation Northwoods <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Once again......... irrelevant.



C'mon, now...... we know you think the Feds murdered the passengers, but....


Where's the plane?

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/08/09 02:31 AM

So approach radar data - from less than a mile from the airport - is completely useless. Why it is even used for control of inbound traffic at busy airports is a mystery. The FAA is lying. The independently interviewed witnesses who sketched out a flight path that unanimously follows the route of the FAA's are lying. Pentagon officials who smelled explosives are lying. Whistleblowers are lying...

Cuz Frank knows radars.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Show us the plane - lets see some o'dem pieces. Whatcha afraid of?
Posted By: StockRaider

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/08/09 03:17 AM

Quote
Quote:
How would you expect people to pull off such a massive plan like that and expect it wouldnt leak out?



As I've said before - they didn't pull it off. We wouldn't be arguing about it if they did. And it did leak out - extensively.


Only problem I see, is how the news isn't reporting on it. I mean if it had any real credibility the news would be all over this. Just the idea of Nixon being aware of his admin pulling shenanigans got him into a hail storm. I am pretty sure the US gov partially exploding a section of its own headquarters would be one hefty story for someone to break. I really wish the gov was that powerful and all knowing, but it just isn't.

I almost feel that people who are so deep into this conspiracy are afraid to think the government can be so human that they would overlook obvious signs before hand. Its an unwillingness to believe we had one pulled over on us by some douche bags in a cave with box cutters. We just aren't as impressive as we thought we were, and sadly it took alot of death and destruction to show it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/08/09 03:34 AM

Quote
Cuz Frank knows radars.


Well, after using them for 20 or so years, I do have a little bit of experience with them...... even to the point of knowing how to use them to spot birds over the horizon for evidence of fish schools below.... and how to choose and place a radar unit so jumping fish can be seen on the horizon..... but now I'm giving away some of my fishing tricks. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What I DO know about radar is that like any science, sufficiently developed, or beyond the limits of understanding to the inexperienced..... any derived results are indistinguishable from magic. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Have you heard of MLat and/or ADS-B, Phil? Do you know why the technology is being developed?


Quote
Multilateration, or MLat, is the latest thing coming down the pike in air traffic control technology, and it’s picking up speed. According to its advocates, MLat promises to eventually replace most, if not all, of today’s transponder tracking ATC radars. What’s more, they claim, MLat is cheaper, requires much less maintenance, is more accurate and works in situations where radar has problems.

Judging by the rate at which MLat systems are being adopted, those are no idle claims. Aviation authorities from Mongolia to Tasmania, from Vancouver to Taipei, from Beijing to Stockholm and at numerous other locations have adopted multilateration solutions to problems that were previously felt could only be resolved by radar, or couldn’t be resolved at all, other than at great expense.

So what is MLat, how does it work, and what is it used for? It’s based on the old principle of triangulation, which you probably did do at school. That is, if you take a bearing of an object from three known, but widely separated, positions and plot those on a map, their intersection will show you the object’s location.

But MLat doesn’t take bearings. The system employs a number of small, unmanned "listening post" stations which can be spread around an airport to monitor local traffic, or located much farther apart, in the system’s wide area configuration, to cover larger areas of airspace.

The stations simply listen for transponder returns, triggered by interrogations from ATC secondary surveillance radars (SSRs) or from TCAS-equipped aircraft, out to line-of-sight distances, which can be up to 300 miles for high-flying aircraft. And to cover all traffic combinations, MLat can monitor Mode-A/C, Mode-S, ADS-B and military IFF transponders.

Every second, each station sends the data from the received signals to a centrally located data processor — a filing cabinet sized unit — where fairly sophisticated triangulation and time-of-arrival computations derive the precise positions of all aircraft, which are then sent to the ATC center.

At the center, controllers see no difference between conventional radar and MLat targets on their screens, because the MLat’s processor unit provides identical information in the identical format to the center’s display computers.

The only difference is that MLat data is refreshed at a much higher update rate than the typical 4.8-second, 360-degree sweep rate of the radar’s rotating antenna.

In turn, that higher data rate provides controllers with a much smoother and more accurate progression of the targets across their screens, compared with the periodic "jumps" of those swept by radar.

Another plus of MLat’s higher update rate is that while positive target confirmation and identification by conventional radar usually requires at least three consecutive antenna sweeps, or roughly 15 to 20 seconds, MLat can achieve it in just three or four seconds.


Aviation Today - Avionics

If you look at the sweep rate on military radars - particularly aboard ships where there is little clutter (actually there is sea surface clutter, but is filtered out fairly well with STC control), you'll find a very rapid antenna rotation - necessary for accurately tracking incoming threats in as close to real-time as possible. You don't have that on commercial airport radars - as shown in the reference. The article states that typical airport sweep rates are 4.8 seconds - which means that the image is frozen on the display for 4.8 seconds after it is located and does not move on the screen until 4.8 seconds later when the image is refreshed by the subsequent sweep. If (as the article claims) there can be as many as three (3) consecutive antenna sweeps before a target is positively identified, the time frame extends to 15-20 seconds..... let's call it 15 seconds:

An airplane flying at 500mph covers 0.14 miles in 1 second - so in 4.8 seconds it would cover 0.67 miles. In 15 seconds it covers 2.1 miles. Now, if someone looked at the radar display at the exact moment that the sweep displayed the position on the screen, the plane would already have moved due to the latency of the electronics, but if the plane crashed right at the time of the next sweep, the radar would still show the plane to be located 3548' away from that spot at impact. If the problem took 15 seconds to resolve, the difference could be as much as 2 miles.

Now - if Truthers want to argue over a difference of 400' when that would not even be a mid-point in a best-case range of error, have at it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Where the heck IS that pesky plane?

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/08/09 05:52 AM

Quote
When we look at the data and communications regarding this animation of the plane flying in north of the Citgo we find that this data is compiled from no less than four separate Radar TERMINAL APPROACH CONTROLS. These systems triangulate through multiple radars as well as transpond data between the aircraft and radars. Why? Because the system has to be accurate. Why? Because it is the key feature for regulating inbound aircraft and blending new incoming flights into the approach pattern. Not only that, but the closer to these radar systems, the more accurate the calculations. The Pentagon is about 3000ft from Reagan International Airport. Sorry Frank - "clutter" doesn't cut it. The evidence and eyewitness testimony affirms the huge holes in the official story.


Quote
So approach radar data - from less than a mile from the airport - is completely useless. Why it is even used for control of inbound traffic at busy airports is a mystery. The FAA is lying. The independently interviewed witnesses who sketched out a flight path that unanimously follows the route of the FAA's are lying.


Well, now that you've had a chance to read a little about MLat and ADS-B, maybe you could answer your own and the "Truthers" questions about radar. While you're at it, ask yourself these 2 questions:

1) If the radar information you claim to be so accurate is so good (because it has to be <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), then why is radar being augmented and/or replaced by MLat and ADS-B all over the world?

Chezh-ANS

Rannoch Corp.

ERA - Bejing

There are plenty of others......

It's quite possible that one of the things we learned from 9/11 is that our radar systems are not quite as good as some think they are. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

2) Where is the plane?

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Oyaji_Jon

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/08/09 01:26 PM

Quote
So approach radar data - from less than a mile from the airport - is completely useless. Why it is even used for control of inbound traffic at busy airports is a mystery. The FAA is lying. The independently interviewed witnesses who sketched out a flight path that unanimously follows the route of the FAA's are lying. Pentagon officials who smelled explosives are lying. Whistleblowers are lying...

Cuz Frank knows radars.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Show us the plane - lets see some o'dem pieces. Whatcha afraid of?


I know a little about radars, I only employ them in the defense of several ships daily...

Several factors impact their reliability...like weather, ducting, buildings and $hit in the way when they fly low...you know, stuff like that. I'm just sayin'...

They are used for approaches because, generally speaking, planes don't fly between buildings and $hit on approaches. Once again, I'm just sayin'...

I'm not a reliable source of information, though, so don't mind me. I'm just sayin'...
Posted By: Brown81CJ5

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/08/09 05:12 PM

Damn!!! 2 reliable sources on how "accurate" current radar is. I think you are fighting a losing battle here Bretwalda. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And I think the only good question asked so far in this thread is...

Where is the flight 77 if it did not crash into the pentagon....maybe at area 51? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/08/09 09:09 PM

Where is the plane is not the point. Where is the evidence that a plane hit the building? If it hit it where is it? The burden of proof is not on the one that says there is no evidence - its on the claim that says a 757 hit it. So lets see it. Lets see the footage. Lets see the wreckage. If its a slam dunk these should be very simple to provide.

The plane wasn't flying in between buildings. Regardless...So the FAA's data cannot be trusted. But it can be trusted for other radar anomalies that happened that day? The NTSB flight data recorder cannot be trusted - but we can trust them regarding FL 93? Its silly. Its being selective with the evidence. The official selectivity of the evidence suggests the evidence they provide is not to be trusted.

I've worked with surveillance systems for years- I can tell you that a time stamped video does not reverse its time stamp. Rolls Royce made the engines for this plane - they say the single rotor found in the wreckage isn't from them. So what's what?

Its like finding a body with a bullet hole in the head and being told the victim fell in a rock crusher. If he was killed by gun then where's the gun? How should I know? Its not the point. The evidence is the point and the evidence that the victim was killed by a rock crusher stinks on every level.

I don't have to provide a gun to make my claim - the dude has a hole in his head, and his body's condition is not consistent with one that would go through a rock crusher.

What coincidence apologists will do - as we see here - is beat the false claim horse to death. All other evidence is 'irrelevent'. They must stick to single point or their argument becomes ridiculous. And they must keep that point as confined as possible. Frank won't show us wreckage of a 757 from the Pentagon because there is none. There's pieces of an aircraft, but there are many types of aircraft that fit these pieces. Nor would we want to see what it looked like in there because we would realize how inconceivably ridiculous it is to state that there were 'passengers still strapped in their seats." There's pictures of victims found in the Pentagon - provided by the government. Where are pics of the passengers?



Quote
Only problem I see, is how the news isn't reporting on it. I mean if it had any real credibility the news would be all over this.


I think you've answered your own dilemma. Dan Rather admitting he and everyone else is a sucker in their trade:

"There's never been an American war, small or large, in which access has been so limited as this one. The belief runs so strong, in both the political and military leadership, that those who control the images will control public opinion. It's an obscene comparison but there was a time in South Africa when people would put flaming tires around people's necks if they dissented. The fear is that you will be necklaced here, you will have a flaming tire of lack of patriotism put around your neck. Now, it's that fear that keeps journalists from asking the toughest of the tough questions and to continue to bore in on the tough questions so often...I knew the right question, but no one...This is not exactly the right time to ask...It starts with a feeling of patriotism within oneself. They realize what an entertainment-oriented society ours has become. I want to say it quietly, but as forcefully as I can, that I hope this doesn't go any further. It's gone too far already. I am appalled by it."

We've had 3 suitcases in parks here detonated by the bomb squads in the last couple years. We've had blocks of cheese with rebar and wires run through security at the airport here. Never to be heard of again. So I went up to a reporter here one day and asked him WTF? "Followup was killed by corporate and Homeland Security" was his reply. And he gets all scared and bugged eyed eyed with me and starts lecturing how its for our saftey. Stupid. That isn't a journalist thats a yes man. A gatekeeper who just needs a paycheck. I dealt with these morons all summer running for state assembly. It was actually quite fun - actually had a fellow reporter of one who interviewed me tell me to "Lay off" his buddy. And they loved it after the interviews when I told them I had recorded the conversation and would be posting it on my site. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

There's still investigative journalism going on but you won't find it in megamedia.

Has any reporter ever asked our government why, if Bin Laden did it, is he not wanted by any agency for crimes relating to 9-11? Of course not. An indie reporter did ask the FBI why 9-11 isn't on his wanted poster and the FBI told him, "The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's most wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11."

Is that really a surprise when the only civilian plane allowed to fly after 9-11 was the Bin Laden's chartered jet?

Is that really a surprise when we l...ently as 1999 in the Albania and Bosnia?.

Is really a surprise that Obama's c...all the cred for creating this monster?

Is it really a surprise that the Bu...he Bin Ladens and own companies together?

Quote
"We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time magazine, and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during these years. But the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government which will never again know war, but only peace and prosperity for the whole of humanity. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in the past centuries. It is also our duty to inform the press of our convictions as to the historic future of the century."

-David Rockefeller - Trilateral Commission 1991


All of it coincidence <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/09/09 01:41 AM

Quote
Where is the plane is not the point.


Of course it is. Since you seem to be saying that the burden of proof is on the one who makes a claim of something happening - and since you say that the plane didn't hit the Pentagon, you must be prepared to provide evidence to the contrary..... so where is the plane?

Quote
The plane wasn't flying in between buildings.


No, but it's not the plane flying between buildings - it's the RF waves that move around and through buildings and trees and bounce off of objects other than planes that causes the anomalies. Interference bends the waves or causes echos and reflections which causes errors in calculated data. Weather and other RF interference also contributes. How do you think a radar jammer works? Whether it is a radar, LORAN or GPS, the hardest calculation for the machine to correctly interpret is a turn or curve. The curious flight path that so many folks think was a pilot who couldn't make up his mind was instead perhaps a very smart fellow who knew that a diving tight turn at high speed was something that could/would help him evade any potential missile threats.... because that's the most difficult action that any radar has to deal with in trying to interpolate a correct track.

Quote
So lets see it. Lets see the footage. Lets see the wreckage. If its a slam dunk these should be very simple to provide.


Let's see the evidence of where the plane went - if not into the Pentagon. If it's a slam dunk the evidence should be easy to provide.

Quote
The official selectivity of the evidence suggests the evidence they provide is not to be trusted.


But folks should accept your selective and mostly irrelevent claims? Why do you glom on to the FAA radar data as infallibly accurate, yet not be able to see from the data where the plane went if it didn't hit the Pentagon?

Quote
Rolls Royce made the engines for this plane - they say the single rotor found in the wreckage isn't from them.


Can you show me an official Rolls Royce statement to back that claim?

Quote
What coincidence apologists will do - as we see here - is beat the false claim horse to death. All other evidence is 'irrelevent'. They must stick to single point or their argument becomes ridiculous.


If you can't answer the question of the plane's whereabouts, you have nothing more than a theory - and not a very good one. That single point is one you have to answer to make your case - and you can't do it.

Quote
Frank won't show us wreckage of a 757 from the Pentagon because there is none.


Really?

Quote
There's pieces of an aircraft, but there are many types of aircraft that fit these pieces.


Including a 757.

Quote
It was actually quite fun - actually had a fellow reporter of one who interviewed me tell me to "Lay off" his buddy. And they loved it after the interviews when I told them I had recorded the conversation and would be posting it on my site.


I don't recall seeing that on your site - you didn't actually lie to him, did you? Not a Truther. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />

Quote
There's still investigative journalism going on but you won't find it in megamedia.


Phew! What a relief to know some folks are on the job! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> That's probably a coincidence, though. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Where's the plane, Phil? With all that good radar, the answer should be easy.

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/09/09 03:37 PM

Quote
Of course it is. Since you seem to be saying that the burden of proof is on the one who makes a claim of something happening - and since you say that the plane didn't hit the Pentagon, you must be prepared to provide evidence to the contrary..... so where is the plane?


Good Lord. Prima facie Frank. Look it up. I'm not making a claim about the plane. I don't know what happened (and neither do you). There is gobs of evidence contradictory to your claim, as we have already discussed.

That there is no evidence of a 757 smoldering inside the pentagon is not a claim that I know where the plane is - it is a refutation of your claim. To state that witness saw a plane travel over an area in contradiction to the governments claim is not a claim of where the plane is or what happened to it, it is submission of evidence contradictory to the claim. In the real world (I invite you to visit sometime) your claim 'on first appearance' must hold it own. Unfortunately eyewitness testimony - 13 people independently interviewed and unanimous in their account is a death blow of evidence contrary to the claim that the plane flew south of the Citgo. You may not like that. You could claim 'conspiracy' of the eyewitnesses - but why bother - you've got plenty to prove already and you're coming up way short. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Please reread my hypothetical scenario to understand the foolishness of your argument.

I never said the FAA radar data is infallibly accurate - I said it supports the testimony of 13 independently interviewed witness who were unanimous in their account. Based on that - it appears the radar data could be accurate - is that unreasonable? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Quote
I don't recall seeing that on your site - you didn't actually lie to him, did you? Not a Truther.


Yes, you got me. Because its not on my own site - I must be lying. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> ...Just like all them FBI counterterrorism agents who were locked out of the 9-11 Commission proceedings - thank goodness eh?
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/10/09 03:42 AM

Quote
That there is no evidence of a 757 smoldering inside the pentagon is not a claim that I know where the plane is - it is a refutation of your claim.


No, it's a failure to believe the government and most of the eye-witnesses without sufficient counter-evidence as proof that the claim is incorrect. You are the one bringing the charge and must prove your theory to the extent that sufficient and rational evidence is presented to call into question the defendant's veracity.... which you haven't done and can't do.

Quote
I never said the FAA radar data is infallibly accurate - I said it supports the testimony of 13 independently interviewed witness who were unanimous in their account. Based on that - it appears the radar data could be accurate - is that unreasonable?


Here's what you also said:

Quote
When we look at the data and communications regarding this animation of the plane flying in north of the Citgo we find that this data is compiled from no less than four separate Radar TERMINAL APPROACH CONTROLS. These systems triangulate through multiple radars as well as transpond data between the aircraft and radars. Why? Because the system has to be accurate. Why? Because it is the key feature for regulating inbound aircraft and blending new incoming flights into the approach pattern.


Then:

Quote
Of course you can't even touch the NTSB data - because it is irrefutable - THE FLIGHT DATA RECORDER information puts the plane at 400 ft above the Pentagon at its impact point. This isn't 'radar clutter'. Its gathered from onboard systems including altimeter.


Sounds like you think it's the "word".

Now, since you didn't understand how radar works, you probably aren't terribly interested in altimeters, either - except to once again accept anything sufficiently beyond understanding.... as magic, sleight-of-hand or infallible because it's in a "black box". Guess what? Altimeters can lie to you if you don't properly adjust them for the correct barometric pressure. According to some things I've read, the NTSB didn't adjust the pressure correction on the FDR altimeter readout for the data that some have said showed the plane at 480' at the time of impact. Maybe this can explain it to you better than I can:

web page

You say the North of Citgo Gang are in unanimous agreement:

Quote
.....13 people independently interviewed and unanimous in their account is a death blow of evidence contrary to the claim that the plane flew south of the Citgo.


.........like that's the only story line:

Debunking the North of Citgo Theory



Quote
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't recall seeing that on your site - you didn't actually lie to him, did you? Not a Truther.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes, you got me. Because its not on my own site - I must be lying. ...


Thought so - thanks for confirming it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/10/09 07:06 AM

LOLZ at 'majority of witness' - show me one that details the flight path. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I wouldn't doubt Hanjour wouldn't know how to set an altimeter - as the dude couldn't even check out in a Cessna. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

The numbers don't lie Frank. Your government does though.

The pressure set in the altimeter was 29.92. Actual pressure was 30.22 at Reagan Airport. That means that the actual altitude of the plane was 300 ft higher than what was incorrectly dialed into the altimeter. There is no way around it. I used to fly, and I actually soloed in a Cessna because I could fly it, unlike our villain. But what do I know. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (better post that on my site too now come to think of it <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />)

Your citgo link was a good chuckle. Funny that he didn't provide the overlay of all the witnesses sketches of the flight path... So in our slam dunk claim that Hanni Hanjour flew a plane into the bottom level of the Pentagon, following the flight path of...???Well - lets just stick with the NTSB one for your sake <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />...How exactly did the plane clear the VOR tower smack dab in the middle of this flight path - a few hundred yards from its final destination? Was the plane already in its 'liquified' state at this point?

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cyclops.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/10/09 12:33 PM

AFAIK, there is no accurate flight path available other than what could be constructed using eyewitness accounts. If you want to reconstruct it, start with the closest witnesses and work your way through all of them - not just 13 who may not have had the best line-of-sight view. Here's 19 for you to start your search:

Eyewitness Accounts

Quote
Well - lets just stick with the NTSB one for your sake ...How exactly did the plane clear the VOR tower smack dab in the middle of this flight path - a few hundred yards from its final destination?


As stated, I don't think anyone has the "exact" flight path once the plane began to dive and turn in on the Pentagon - I suspect that only partial segments of the path can be agreed and I would not take the FAA or NTSB's account as anything more than an approximation with considerable room for error.

Quote
Was the plane already in its 'liquified' state at this point?


Here's where "Truthers" go off the rails - the choice of a word such as "liquified" is not a correct explanation of what happened - perhaps "violently and completely disintegrated" would have been better - but so-called Truthers jump on the use of "liquified" as if the fellow was intentionally saying that the plane turned into a pot of molten aluminum..... Maybe some of it did.

You've seen this video of an F4 crashing into a reinforced concrete wall - what would you call the resulting disintegration?

web page



Oh........ I found the plane for you:

[Linked Image]

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/10/09 01:33 PM

Now let's take a look at the altimeter and see what's used in a 757 instead of a Cessna 172.

I'm not familiar with flight data recorders, but I assume either digital instruments or analog-converted-to-digital signals are used to record the data.

Here's the NTSB's summary of the data recorded for AA Flight 587 that crashed in 2001:

web page

Note that as with Flight 77, NTSB does not correct the data for pressure altitude.

Note that one of the instruments used for altitude reporting to the FDR is a radio altimeter - and that the radio altimeter's data points were found to be "erroneous".

One of the digital instruments used in a 757 is a Rockwell-Collins LRA-900 Low-range Radio Altimeter:

LRA-900

Apparently, one of the issues with these altimeters is inaccuracy when a plane is doing anything other than flying straight and level - here's a patent application that describes - and hopes to resolve - the problem:

Quote
0001]In radar altimeter operation, during aircraft roll or pitch maneuvers, it is possible for the altimeter track (range) gate to slide off the true altitude because the signal level is not maintained with sufficient accuracy. When the aircraft banks errors in the altitude can be generated due to coupled-control-loop induced positioning errors between the track gate and the level gate that are positioned relative to each other at a fixed separation. Likewise, variations in the terrain with respect to the attitude of the aircraft cause errors or inaccuracies due to the coupled-control-loop induced positioning errors. In the worst case, these positioning errors can result in coupled control loop oscillations that result in oscillations in the altitude value the radar altimeter reports. Such errors can cause unsafe flying conditions especially for aircraft that bank at large angles or fly over steep terrain, especially if these occur at low altitudes and the size of the altitude oscillations is a large fraction of the actual altitude.


Patent Description

WRT Flight 77, here's one electrical engineer's opinion of the accuracy of the FDR:

Quote
The Final 1 to 2 Seconds

Given that the data was compressed, and synched, it’s very likely that any frames that were not complete would be difficult to recover, if even recoverable at all. The implication of this is quite simple, and that is the FDR data in the CSV file “runs out” well before the plane actually hits.

This means that 9:37:44 was the last, complete frame, gathered by the recorder. That puts the likely time of impact in the 9:37:45-6 range, and possibly even into the 9:37:46-7 timeframe. The presence of 9:37:46 in this data suggests that its timestamp may have made it onto the tape. How is that possible if 9:37:45 is not a complete frame? That’s a good question, but a reasonable hypothesis has to do with the storage mechanism used. Solid State Recorders, like all medium, are quite unpredictable if they fail during write operations. The actual area being used to record data can very easily be corrupted if power fails while writing. It’s plausible that the crash caused problems in and around this local area of data, causing corruption of the 9:37:45 data frame (again, changing a single bit in a synch word is enough to cause software to completely choke).

The moral of the story here is that the FDR data runs out anywhere from up to 2 seconds before the plane actually crashed into the Pentagon.


web page

So, here we have a possible combination of:

1) Electronic latency (historesis) that cannot record in exact real-time. If the last 1-2 seconds of flight data are not recorded, then at 500mph the potential error is between 733-1466' - obviously not straight down as a loss of altitude, but certainly some loss of altitude at the end of the flight.

2) Inaccuracy of the reported altitude due to aircraft attitude and control input just prior to the crash.

Face it, Phil..... if reasonable people thought there was any "truth" in the claims that Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon, we would have had full exposure long ago.

Truthers looking for that plane remind me of O.J. Simpson looking for Nicole's killer. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Where is that plane?

Frank
Posted By: hazy_daze

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/10/09 03:19 PM

This is all very entertaining. Really, it is. But, every time I look at this thread, I envision bretwalda as the character Mel Gibson played in the movie Conspiracy Theory. In the movie, he was right about alot of stuff, which, I'm sure there are possibilities that Phil is as well. I just find this banter very humorous. They're all theories, on both sides. "Facts", as we all know, can be fabricated. But, I too find it difficult to wrap my brain around a conspiracy this big not being leaked with hard eveidence to substantiate the leak. Internet stories, supposed eyewitness accounts, video; all of it can be fabricated, doctored, and generally fooled around with. I choose to believe the account that makes the most sense. But, please, don't stop on my account <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/10/09 03:30 PM

Quote
But, please, don't stop on my account


Sorry, but I'm about done with this - the Truthers remind me of what a junior JAG officer once said to someone I knew:

"No matter what you say, the facts remain."

Figure that one out. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: hazy_daze

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/10/09 03:39 PM

Quote
"No matter what you say, the facts remain."

Figure that one out. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />


Lots of truth in that statement <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/10/09 04:31 PM

Quote
Lots of truth in that statement



Or not - depending on how you view it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That statement was made off-the-record by a JAG officer/prosecutor to my father who was appointed as defense counsel at a soldier's court martial during WWII. It was one of the first examples I heard that showed how twisted words can be made to sound like truth...... and that even a grain of truth can be made to sound like a "fact".

I'm still waiting for an answer to this:

Quote
Rolls Royce made the engines for this plane - they say the single rotor found in the wreckage isn't from them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Can you show me an official Rolls Royce statement to back that claim?


And this:

Quote
Where is that plane?


Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: hazy_daze

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/10/09 04:35 PM

Quote
Quote
Lots of truth in that statement


Or not - depending on how you view it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Point taken.

Another that I heard once was, "For it to be believable, at the bottom of every lie, there has to be a shred of truth."
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/10/09 04:39 PM

Yup - even if the shred of truth isn't accurate - only inexplainable - or not understandable - to the point where it seems like the truth if enough people repeat it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Grasscat

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/10/09 05:53 PM

I found this and thought of Phil. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote
He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not is a slave.
- Sir William Drummond
Posted By: hazy_daze

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/10/09 06:15 PM

Just gotta stir that pot, huh <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/10/09 09:06 PM

Good laughs all. So the FDR just 'quits' 2 seconds before impact. That's mighty convenient isn't it. And so now its not a problem of inputing the wrong pressure - these things are just 'plane' useless. Three revs on the dial certainly has to be "considerable room for error"...but we drawn the line at 13 independently interviewed , unanimous witnesses. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Gotcha.



Read your 19 eyewitness. Most of them don't even state their position. Most of don't even say they saw it hit. We don't even have names for some of them. And of course - none of them detail a flight path in way. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/sleeping.gif" alt="" />

Quote
If you want to reconstruct it, start with the closest witnesses and work your way through all of them


Will do. Lets start with the closest - our boy Lloyd. Ya know the one that had one of the light poles go through his cab...that's pretty darn close eh?

Lloyd sets us straight on the facts. Stick to your story Lloyd. You don't want to be suicided over this. Speaking of coincidental suicides - let see what now dead camera man James Ingersoll (committed suicide a few days after handing all of his photos to the CIT guys) shows us from behind the lens on that day:

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

'Liquify' is not my terminology. It is your apologists terminology in order to explain how a plane with 44ft tall tail strikes a building without leaving so much as a scratch on the windows and surface above the hole. You can't have it both ways. Why is the VOR tower still standing?

Quote
...... I found the plane for you:


<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" /> Thanks Frank. Cuz if we aren't allowed to see the plane - a computer graphic will certainly do <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> Hey at least that one has engines <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Quote
But, I too find it difficult to wrap my brain around a conspiracy this big not being leaked with hard evidence to substantiate the leak.


Your not reading all the info I've posted. Investigate what the insiders have said. Look at Able Danger...

Quote
No matter what you say, the facts remain.


And those facts are what? That all data supplied supporting the claim that a dude that couldn't check out in a Cessna flew into the Pentagon is unreliable? That the gatekeepers of the information should be trusted - we don't need to see a plane hitting it? What facts? That the leadership directly falsified documents regarding air quality at ground zero should be trusted nonetheless regarding their 'factual' claims? That the White House went on Cipro 3 days before 9-11? What other facts remain that support the official story? That some of the hijackers were living with FBI informants? That mainstream media was reporting WTC 7 collapsed 20 minutes before it fell at free fall speed into its own footprint? That thermate has been found in the debris of the towers? That there was never an investigation of the WTC evidence - carted off to China in the days and months afterward, some of it saved to build us a warship? That molten pools of metal remained in the basement levels of the WTC for months following the event - even evidenced by NASA infrared imaging? That seismic readings preceding the collapses demonstrate massive detonations?

What other facts remain?
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/10/09 10:38 PM

That goofy fellow should be ashamed of himself.... trying to confuse poor ol' Lloyd. And Lloyd's wife is a trip - an expert witness who wasn't at the scene, but becomes a cornerstone of "factual" information "proving" the Truthers case that the entire event was planned. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Quote
So the FDR just 'quits' 2 seconds before impact.


No, the FDR likely worked until impact, but latency in the data being written to the recorder made it appear that it quit 1-2 seconds sooner.

Quote
And so now its not a problem of inputing the wrong pressure - these things are just 'plane' useless. Three revs on the dial certainly has to be "considerable room for error"...but we drawn the line at 13 independently interviewed , unanimous witnesses. Gotcha.


I don't think so....... The government reconstruction was not a real-time view of the instruments - it was a simulation. Do you know whether the altimeter data was derived from the pressure altimeter or the radio altimeter? I don't. Either could have been in error - particularly the radio altimeter in a diving bank and both are likely to show deviation due to electronic latency. Have you checked any other black box data to show what the data read at impact as a result of a diving/banking crash. Was the pressure altimeter correctly calibrated? Was the radio altimeter correctly calibrated?

Quote
That all data supplied supporting the claim that a dude that couldn't check out in a Cessna flew into the Pentagon is unreliable?


That means nothing. My son-in-law couldn't check out a Cessna 172 a couple of years ago - even though he had recently accumulated 4000 hours in USN EP3-E model multi-engine surveillance aircraft:
[Linked Image]

and a few thousand more hours as a flight instructor in a T-34C:
[Linked Image]

If you haven't been checked out in a plane, you don't get to fly it.... but you know that.

Quote
No matter what you say, the facts remain.


You're reading that from the wrong angle..... since you seem to have all of the "facts" - most all of which are completely irrelevent.

Quote
That seismic readings preceding the collapses demonstrate massive detonations?


Oh boy........ now you're going into orbit...... put down the crack pipe.

1) Where's the disclaimer from Rolls Royce?

2) Where's the plane?

I'll get back to you when you can answer those 2 questions.

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/sleeping.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: hazy_daze

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/11/09 01:09 AM

Quote
Oh boy........ now you're going into orbit...... put down the crack pipe.


Dammit Frank. Now you've made me pee myself...
Posted By: NathanC

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/11/09 02:08 AM

Quote
Quote
Oh boy........ now you're going into orbit...... put down the crack pipe.


Dammit Frank. Now you've made me pee myself...

[Linked Image]
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/11/09 03:22 AM

Latency per the NTSB spec is .5 seconds. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Was the pressure altimeter correctly calibrated? Was the radio altimeter correctly calibrated?


I'm sure it was off - by 300 ft <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> ...otherwise we have real problems...well we still do. - Dam that tower!

So your saying your son in law would be incompetent to even fly a Cessna with an instructor in order to check out in the Cessna?

Quote
Hanjour, the only suspect on Flight 77 the FBI listed as a pilot, had come to the airport one month earlier seeking to rent a small plane.

However, when Baxter and fellow instructor Ben Conner took the slender, soft-spoken Hanjour on three test runs during the second week of August, they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single-engine Cessna 172. Even though Hanjour showed a federal pilot's license and a log book cataloging 600 hours of flying experience, chief flight instructor Marcel Bernard declined to rent him a plane without more lessons.

In the spring of 2000, Hanjour had asked to enroll in the CRM Airline Training Center in Scottsdale, Ariz., for advanced training, said the center's attorney, Gerald Chilton Jr. Hanjour had attended the school for three months in late 1996 and again in December 1997 but never finished coursework for a license to fly a single-engine aircraft, Chilton said.

When Hanjour reapplied to the center last year, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn't think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997"


Quote
"This guy could not solo a Cessna 150 ... and what I mean by solo is a pilot's first time out without anyone in the cockpit with him. It's the most simple, the most fundamental flying exercise one can engage in..."


Quote
Rick Garza, a flight instructor at Sorbi's Flying Club, had this to say about the two alleged hijackers originally thought to have piloted Flight 77, Khalid al-Mihdar and Nawaq al-Hamzi: "It was like Dumb and Dumber, I mean, they were clueless. It was clear they were never going to make it as pilots."


But hey - that means nothing <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So:

Terminal Approach Radar - no good - refutes the claim.
FDR data - no good - refutes the claim.
Flight path detail by eyewitnesses - no good - refutes the claim.
Lloyd's testimony - <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" />

Anonymous accounts of bodies still strapped in the seats - Perfect.
Two sentence testimonies of a plane and an explosion, no statement of the witnesses perspective, flight path, etc - Perfect.
DNA evidence exclusive to government investigators tasked for all 4 event scenes - Perfect.

= proves 9-11 was the work of islamic fundamentalists (who also enjoyed snorting crack, hitting the strip clubs, and lovin up their white American girlfriends)

Why's VOR tower still standing?

Where's the plane?

Quote
Dammit Frank. Now you've made me pee myself...


[Linked Image]
Posted By: Brown81CJ5

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/11/09 06:36 AM

Quote

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

That seismic readings preceding the collapses demonstrate massive detonations?

What other facts remain?


Those photos are taken from 2 different angles, and that pole in the foreground is quite an obstruction...or it could be that the pole was hit with such speed that it was "thrown", instead of simply just falling where it stood.

And planes of that size smashing into a building and exploding...there are your seismic readings.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/11/09 01:31 PM

This gets funnier and funnier. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> Truthers will probably want to take this one off of their list of "proof" before they go marching up to Capital Hill. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Look carefully at those 2 pictures - it's not a matter of being taken from 2 different angles - they aren't even taken from the same location. The "EXIT" sign behind the 3 poles appears in one picture, but not the other. Probably just a sleight of hand. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> I wonder what pictures the goofy fellow used to "prove" to poor ol' Lloyd that his cab wasn't where he said it was. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Phil, you couldn't find the truth with a road map and a huntin' dog.

Where's the statement from Rolls Royce?

Where's the plane?

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Tag

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/11/09 04:00 PM

I think I see something in the first pic that looks like the pole that is is in the second pic.

It looks like the pic is taken very near to the same location and angle just closer up. But no it is not exact. Close enough for me.
Posted By: Tag

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/11/09 04:03 PM

What I see in the first pic is a distortion of some sort. It is near the first visible rail support just to our right of the junction box and on top of the rail.
Posted By: Brown81CJ5

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/11/09 04:44 PM

Yeah. I like how blurry the first pic is but the second one is perfectly focused. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/11/09 05:14 PM

Not only is the "EXIT" sign missing, look at the 3 poles to the left and notice that the angle brace connects to the left pole about 2' above the ground in this picture:

[Linked Image]

But it's only about 1' above the ground in this picture

[Linked Image]

Maybe the seismic activity caused it, eh? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

No wonder Lloyd's car moved.......... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> These guys are pretty good with photo chop.

They remind me of the Keystone Cops:
[Linked Image]

Frank
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/11/09 05:39 PM

Quote
the work of islamic fundamentalists (who also enjoyed snorting crack, hitting the strip clubs, and lovin up their white American girlfriends


Ok thats it.......

You dont snort crack, you smoke it.



I just thought that was pertinent information for the cause. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/11/09 06:32 PM

Here's another example of how gullible folks are and how far "Truthers" will go in an attempt to create their own "sleight-of-hand" - they show a hole punched by rescue workers - or by the nose of the plane - or by whatever and ask "How could a plane fly through that hole? There's not even any damage from the tail or wings."
[Linked Image]

When the hole from another perspective looks like this and it becomes obvious that it's in one of the inner rings of the Pentagon, several hundred feet from the initial crash contact point...
[Linked Image]

And the initial impact point in the outer wall looks like this:
[Linked Image]

Now, I have to ask how a freelance graphics designer like Phil could miss all of this Truth? Is he that gullible? Or is he one of the perpetrators of the graphics fraud for anti-government subversion?

Wait.... that would be a conspiracy to accuse the government of a conspiracy. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />

Maybe these folks just want to join Cynthia McKinney on the 9/11 Truthers Ticket next time and have their sheep send them money for their political use. Yikes! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: rapha

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/11/09 10:28 PM

Quote
Now, I have to ask how a freelance graphics designer like Phil could miss all of this Truth? Is he that gullible? Or is he one of the perpetrators of the graphics fraud for anti-government subversion?


I think they see what they want to see and believe what they have already predetermined in their own mind. Once someone gets so far invested in a belief there is really no convincing them their beliefs are false.

Carlos
Posted By: Brown81CJ5

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/12/09 01:17 AM

Quote
"How could a plane fly through that hole?


The thing is...the plane did not fly through the hole, it crashed, causing the hole. When a dragster crashes at over 200 mph the ONLY reason there is anything recongnizable left is that they are very well reinforced with a steel cage...planes are not reinforced as well as dragsters because of weight issues, and there is a lot more mass to planes...not mention usually more speed as well.

And yeah, I have to say that I think those photos look doctored also.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/12/09 09:24 AM

Quote
Those photos are taken from 2 different angles, and that pole in the foreground is quite an obstruction...or it could be that the pole was hit with such speed that it was "thrown", instead of simply just falling where it stood.


Yes he was walking down a hill and toward the right as he snapped photos.

Here's a gif I made of the three shots. Big file - 1MB

This is the pole that, according to Lloyd went through his windshield. Very peculiar (as is Lloyds extended interview) physics going on there but regardless... In the first frame you can see his cab perpendicular to the road on the left side. Now if the pole was still sticking out of the windshield it should be there - this is a big pole. Also you will note with the reference marks against the median divider that the first 2 shots were from a higher elevation - as James walked down a hill to the scene - so from this higher angle you'd assume if it was laying in its place seen in the 3rd shot, you would have a better view of it. Time info on the exif data for the images is 9:49 for the first, 9:49 for the 2nd, and 9:52 for the 3rd.

Certainly nothing worth the long diatribes that have ensued here - there's just not enough that can't be determined from the shots - What about Lloyd though...and his wife? Its perfectly acceptable for Frank to scream 'conspiracy!' and claim they've been photoshopped (these photos have been available and used by mainstream news sources and 9-11 sites of both truther and coicidence apologists since 9-11), but seeing any of the 85 confiscated surveillance tapes that should show the plane hitting the building - "They don't have to show you anything." I think its clear from the perspective of the vertical poles that he's moved much closer to the scene, further down the hill, and to the right in the 3rd shot - which is why the perspective of the car (and the missing exit sign <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />) has changed.

#1 exit sign visible
sequence two - exit sign visible behind tree
moving down and to the right - exit sign obscured by trees - not photoshop'd
Now down near street level and shoo...- Sorry Frank - no photoshop conspiracy <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" />



Quote
And planes of that size smashing into a building and exploding...there are your seismic readings.


No, these are right before the collapses. There's multiple recordings of this from different stationary cameras- here's one clip - @ 25 sec.


Quote
Here's another example of how gullible folks are and how far "Truthers" will go in an attempt to create their own "sleight-of-hand" - they show a hole punched by rescue workers - or by the nose of the plane - or by whatever and ask "How could a plane fly through that hole? There's not even any damage from the tail or wings."


BWAHAHHAHAHA!

Well, lets hope your disinfo is merely due to your ongoing selective researching of the facts and not outright falsehood...but I wouldn't put it past you.

There is no Truther that would or has ever claimed your ridiculous and obnoxious point that that is where the plane entered the Pentagon. Just stupid lies. The fact is it was Popular Mechanics that claimed the hole was made by the planes landing gear and independent researchers - through transcripts, interviews and photo research, determined that it was a punch out hole to gain access from the back - as is now generally accepted by all sides.

Quote
I think they see what they want to see and believe what they have already predetermined in their own mind.


I see a tower in the flight path - what do you see?

So where are we now?

NTSB data - unacceptable - does not work with official story
FAA radar data - unacceptable - does not work with official story
VDOT tower does not exist???
13 independently interviewed witness, unanimous in flight path direction of travel. - unacceptable - does not work with official story
Anonymous accounts of bodies still strapped in the seats - Perfect.
Two sentence testimonies of a plane and an explosion, no statement of the witnesses perspective, flight path, etc - Perfect.
DNA evidence exclusive to government investigators tasked for all 4 event scenes - Perfect.

"anti-government subversion" - not hardly - that'd be you Frank. You've got good company...and even better coming in 8 more days.

My agenda is pretty dangerous thoug... and those that would veil the evidence.

Where's the tapes? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/12/09 01:19 PM

That's real cute, linking to pictures that aren't relevent. Show me the "EXIT" sign in this picture:
[Linked Image]

That is in this picture:
[Linked Image]

Since the second picture is taken from a closer range, the "EXIT" sign should be clearly visible in the first picture. Where is it?

Quote
I see a tower in the flight path - what do you see?


Oh yes - the tower.... the one you called a VOR tower here:
Quote
Why's VOR tower still standing?


But is now a VDOT tower - big difference.

Actually, there is quite a bit of confusion about this - is it the VDOT antenna that is the concern?
[Linked Image]

Or this mast next to the overhead sign?
[Linked Image]

Since you said that you could see a tower in the path, I assume you meant the mast - which appears to have been struck by a wingtip - maybe, maybe not.

If you meant the VDOT antenna tower, then that's a different thing.

Here's a discussion regarding the VDOT tower and whether it was possible to fly the airplane into the Pentagon, yet not hit the VDOT tower. If you want to do the math for yourself, be prepared to determine a parabolic flight path from the FDR that has a lag due to latency - and then calculate the airborne position of the aircraft's parabolic path (including any banking maneuver) over an exact geographic track using the FDR info (with latency). You'll also need to calculate generated G-Force and determine if the aircraft could have remained assembled and if the pilot could have remained concious. The calculations are quite complex without accurate data, but if you want to find the answer, you need to read this and see for yourself:

web page

Where is that statement from Rolls Royce?
Where is the plane?
Who photochopped the pictures?

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/12/09 03:57 PM

Dang - So your really believe these photos were photoshop'd?

Brilliant <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> Look at the links again Frank - try to figure it out. Otherwise you might want to put the word out to your apologists about your new conspiracy discovery <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

VDOT yes. Ah yes - the G-force debate by the JREF goons - another fine bunch to align with <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

This has been dealt with ad nauseum...y errant altimeter, gets a big fat fail. But you go. Professional pilots doing the math vs 9-11 forum experts - its obvious who's got all the answers <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/12/09 09:35 PM

Where's the exit sign, if it's not a photochop? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/13/09 01:37 AM

Quote
Dang - So your really believe these photos were photoshop'd?


I'm not sure - but if they're not photo chopped, then they're taken from 2 separate locations - which either way calls into question the stories about Lloyd's cab and the "disappearing" pole - the locations of which are noted in both of your pictures. There are several of those braced sign structures around the Pentagon area - here's another one:
[Linked Image]


- but let's look at one that you say is obscured by trees :
[Linked Image]

oops, if it's behind trees, it's not where it should be according to you original picture:
[Linked Image]

But wait - here it is:
[Linked Image]

And here it is again - peeking out over the ambulance like Kilroy:
[Linked Image]

This one looks like it might be the "grassy knoll" where the photographer was standing - ooops - I don't see the "EXIT" sign here either, unless that's it down low between the sign poles - in which case it's only missing in the photo above:
[Linked Image]

The problem with the math in your video is the same problem I have with the NTSB, or anyone who wants to attempt to reconstruct the flight path accurately...... it can't be done - and any assumptions made to plug numbers into formulaic calculations are likely in error from the beginning - so the resulting "opinion" will be faulty.... IOW, GIGO.

Quote
its obvious who's got all the answers


Yes, it is - nobody does.

But what I had to chuckle about in your video was seen in the opening graphics:

Quote
"If American Airlines Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon, then where are the plane and the passengers?"


Maybe one day you'll get around to answering that for us..... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/13/09 07:08 AM

Contemplate this. Within 30 mins of the first plane striking the towers we had government 'experts' in every MSM interview chair telling us OBL did it while images of the towers crumbling - a first in the history of steel skyscrapers - were replayed over, and over, and over and over...for days after. Its old school mind warfare, like everyone else I fell for it too. But what is incredible to me is how steadfast some will stand entrenched in a false reality no matter how many holes are in the sack put over their head.

We find this for WMD's as well. If it wasn't so sad it would be hysterical. This is what they (tyrants) do - since Nero burned Rome and blamed it on the Christians.

But what is just pathetic is when alternative evidence is presented - then 'conspiracy theory' - the very thing railed against in regards to a very problematic story - is not only acceptable, but immediately plausible. But this shouldn't be confused with how I, or anyone else came to the conclusion that its an inside job. As I've said before, it was years before the examination of evidence became so overwhelming there is no other possible conclusion.

Of course its entirely inconceivable that leaders at the very top of government could ever conceive of such an idea to bring about an agenda - but they did...but then when facts are presented its 'irrelevant.' We won't even examine the Downing Street memo that advocates the exact same premise (a self inflicted wound for the purpose of gaining public consensus and support), or the more recent accounts by executive branch insiders of Cheney's ideas for kick-starting an Iranian conflict (painting up boats in Iranian markings and having them fire on American ships), or the Gulf of Tonkin, or the sinking of the Maine, the attack of the USS Liberty (hell you can read that one right on the NSA's own website) or, as has been recently exposed in the National Archives - Pearl Harbor (an event proactively allowed to happen).

No, no no - but a sloppy glance at a photo: "Photoshopped"...by a couple of guys seeking the rest of the story that our government refuses to give us. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So here is it is:

The photo perspective - no conspiracy. Marker at bottom is where first photo was taken. Marker above that was were the photos with the obstructed sign were taken. Next marker is where the last photos were taken where the pole is visible. Green marker is location of sign. Circle is the obstructing tree.
[Linked Image]

Overhead view. Exif data for the shot is by a Nikon Coolpix - shot at 200mm equiv zoom - which is why there is no depth of field. And there's no editing in the exif data history...
[Linked Image]

So I've wasted my time - now someone explain to me how a time stamp on the Citgo 'Doubletree' video reverses. And why/what was the dude in the scene looking at in the sky while the Pentagon has just blown up behind him?

Maybe Roosevelt Roberts Jr. has your answer.

...

Quote
then they're taken from 2 separate locations


as I said previously: "Yes he was walking down a hill and toward the right as he snapped photos." The first shots from a higher location - which should give us more perspective beyond the guard rail - i.e. a pole. The gov. cars that blocked traffic are not there yet, and they are supposed to be the ones that helped him take the pole out of his windshield - so why isn't it still sticking out of the windshield?

Quote
...Yes, it is - nobody does...

Maybe one day you'll get around to answering that for us.


Hmmm. Nobody does, but, based on ??? you do - FL77 hit it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/drunk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/13/09 11:15 AM

Nice graphics job - your work? Where can I get some of those tree and people thingys I can stick wherever I want to on a picture? Of all the good information that a photo can give you, a GPS readout of where the photographer was standing is not yet included. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Quote
...Yes, it is - nobody does...

Maybe one day you'll get around to answering that for us.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hmmm. Nobody does, but, based on ??? you do - FL77 hit it.


Let's review your "evidence":

1) A photograph of a light pole that has broken off at the base (as it's designed to do) and you say it was torched - even though there are witnesses who saw the plane hit the light poles and the Pentagon - and even though there were hundreds of people running around the area with cameras who would surely have recorded anything so curious as Dick Cheney torching a light pole, you say this is "proof". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

2) A photograph of what appears to be part of an engine - likely a piece of a rotor. You say that Rolls Royce (manufacturer of Flight 77's engines) claimed it wasn't theirs, but you can post no statement from Rolls Royce. When did they say this - in your dreams? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

3) You say that Flight 77 was above 400' altitude, did a flyover, but you have no evidence of it flying anywhere after the crash at the Pentagon. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

4) You don't know where the plane went after the crash, but you're sure it didn't crash into the Pentagon. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

5) You want to defend the data in the flight recorder as proof that the plane was at a higher altitude than the Pentagon crash site, but can't explain how the flight data recorder was found in the Pentagon with the clock stopped at the approximate time of the crash. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

6) You have 13 "witnesses" over by Arlington National Cemetery working at a warehouse location who were a considerable distance away and who could tell which side of a gas station a 757 passed, but couldn't tell us where the plane went after the crash. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

7) Because the Kennedy administration once planned to overthrow Castro, you conclude the government is inherently evil and therefore has murdered the passengers of Flight 77 - but you don't know where the plane went for this to happen. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

8) You think "the examination of evidence became so overwhelming there is no other possible conclusion." <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Do you know how silly you sound? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/13/09 05:10 PM

Edit - link fixed... Even the apologists and perps get it right sometimes.
Posted By: rapha

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/14/09 05:52 AM

Quote
while images of the towers crumbling - a first in the history of steel skyscrapers


So how should they have "reacted" when hit by two 747's? What exactly would have been an acceptable collapse or implosion? Toppling over to the side? If they would have done that I'll bet people would've been talking about how poorly designed they were and conspiracy theorists would have said that someone detonated a bomb at the base to cause the topple.

It seems to me that they reacted perfectly to their design and that is to pancake on top of itself to minimize damage to surrounding buildings in the event of collapse. No? Does it not make sense that as the core columns succumbed to the extreme heat they would have, through connection of intermediate members, pulled the exterior steel "panels" inward thus creating an implosion effect. Then as the thousands of tons of steel, concrete, framework, office furniture, etc. came crashing down on lower floors the implosion would continue.

The tremors? Have you ever heard steel snap? Have you ever heard a large steel member dropped or even just hit really hard with a large hammer? If so I bet you'd agree that there may be a small "tremor" associated with the sound, since sound waves can cause small tremors or better yet cause a small video camera to shake a little. Imagine dozens of large steel members all snapping at once while the building is collapsing. Think that might be "felt" a block or so away?

I haven't seen it mentioned here but you have before mentioned the explosions heard before the collapse and I can't pass up the opportunity to throw this in as well. Just to let you know, in case you didn't, buildings have mechanical equipment all throughout that will explode when subjected to extreme heat. You know, like the heat caused by thousands of gallons of jet fuel burning. This is a pretty neat video of an electrical transformer exploding. There are also things like mechanical compressors or even fire extinguishers that can explode in extreme heat.

Carlos
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/14/09 05:59 AM

A part of me WANTED to believe in the consipracy (not sure why). But every time I watch or read something, and try to look at it rationally/logically, I come away feeling that the truth is much closer to the official explanation than the "truther" explanation(s).
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/14/09 09:30 AM

Quote
So how should they have "reacted" when hit by two 747's? What exactly would have been an acceptable collapse or implosion? Toppling over to the side? If they would have done that I'll bet people would've been talking about how poorly designed they were and conspiracy theorists would have said that someone detonated a bomb at the base to cause the topple.


767's - much smaller...Bombs were in the basements - look up Willie Rodrigez (sp?). Lots of other testimonies too but he was the maintenance guy - he knew where the fuel tanks were and where the explosions were occurring and they were on different levels - this was going on before they started coming down.

Let's see what an expert has to say about WTC design - an expert on the WTC's architecture: Frank DeMartini - died in collapse

Quote
It seems to me that they reacted perfectly to their design and that is to pancake on top of itself to minimize damage to surrounding buildings in the event of collapse. No? Does it not make sense that as the core columns succumbed to the extreme heat they would have, through connection of intermediate members, pulled the exterior steel "panels" inward thus creating an implosion effect. Then as the thousands of tons of steel, concrete, framework, office furniture, etc. came crashing down on lower floors the implosion would continue.


First of all there is no evidence that these or any other skyscraper were designed for the event of a collapse. They were built to withstand collapse, and indeed - prior to 9-11 and ever since - no steel framed skyscraper (which is what all skyscrapers are) has never before or since collapsed.

Your saying alot here and I just don't have the time to reply to it all right now but lets focus on the main thing - "extreme heat". The common argument is that you had all this fuel burning for...around 2 hrs. Examining the evidence this just isn't true. Most of that fuel was burned up in the massive fireball that followed impact. It was not a large and intense fire. The smoke is one evidence of this. Heavy smoke is evidence starving fire, not an intense one. Secondly we have radio recording of firefighters that reached the impacted floors. And we also have video and photos of victims standing in the impact hole waving for help.

This is intense heat. This building burned for 18 hours - completely.

Here it is following the fire

I apologize for the hokey nature of some of these clips - but the live footage is compelling...

Bombs in the buildings

Video is out of sync - note firemen radio transmissions.

NOVA's laughable simulation - note what is missing, and what is left standing. A Purdue production?? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote
The tremors? Have you ever heard steel snap? Have you ever heard a large steel member dropped or even just hit really hard with a large hammer? If so I bet you'd agree that there may be a small "tremor" associated with the sound, since sound waves can cause small tremors or better yet cause a small video camera to shake a little. Imagine dozens of large steel members all snapping at once while the building is collapsing. Think that might be "felt" a block or so away?


Well now you are saying steel snapped - which is not even what NIST is willing to say. The collapse hasn't happened yet so how does steel under the influence of 'extreme heat' snap exactly?

This is not snapping steel

Note in the videos above - you have no mention of fuel, no mention of fires of an intense nature but rather containable pockets of fire... we hear on the radio in the clip above a radio report from the levels where the plane hit "two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to take it down with two lines." What is the simplest explanation? What is everybody saying? Explosions, explosive devices, dust, and things being blown apart.

Quote
I haven't seen it mentioned here but you have before mentioned the explosions heard before the collapse and I can't pass up the opportunity to throw this in as well. Just to let you know, in case you didn't, buildings have mechanical equipment all throughout that will explode when subjected to extreme heat. You know, like the heat caused by thousands of gallons of jet fuel burning. This is a pretty neat video of an electrical transformer exploding. There are also things like mechanical compressors or even fire extinguishers that can explode in extreme heat.


Again you're arguing on the premise of extreme heat - which even NIST no longer admits to. And if you listen to those testimonies in the videos above (tons more on youtube - we're just scratching the surface) - you'll notice this was going on - in the basement levels, the main lobby, and floors all the way up to the impacted floors. Even if there was, and there wasn't...intense heat, it cannot explain these explosions throughout the whole buildings.
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/14/09 11:31 AM

One floor, collapsing upon another, would sound like an explosion. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/14/09 04:43 PM

These explosions were long before the collapse.
Posted By: hazy_daze

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/14/09 05:17 PM

So, you were there? Because even I'm pretty good with Photoshop and Muvee for Windows. Given the time I could make the explosions a half hour before the collapse...
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/14/09 05:56 PM

Wow.
Posted By: RichinROA

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/14/09 06:15 PM

A childhood friend of mine was USMC stationed at the Pentagon that day. I take his word that it was a plane hitting the building. I've known him long enough to smell his lies like a fart in an elevator.

I'm still waiting for Bush to attack Iran and declare a national emergency and cancel the 2008 election as the 'prophecy' was told...waiting...waiting...I'll be in the bar. Come get me. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/baby.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/14/09 07:54 PM

Quote
A childhood friend of mine was USMC stationed at the Pentagon that day. I take his word that it was a plane hitting the building. I've known him long enough to smell his lies like a fart in an elevator.


I guess that settles it then <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Bush did declare a state of emergency...for DC.
Posted By: hazy_daze

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/14/09 08:57 PM

Quote
Wow.


Glad I could wow ya <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: RichinROA

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/14/09 10:58 PM

Quote

I guess that settles it then <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I'll have the pizza boy say it and post it to youtube so you'll believe it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Brown81CJ5

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/15/09 05:06 PM

Quote
Of course its entirely inconceivable that leaders at the very top of government could ever conceive of such an idea to bring about an agenda - but they did


Prove it.

Quote
First of all there is no evidence that these or any other skyscraper were designed for the event of a collapse. They were built to withstand collapse, and indeed - prior to 9-11 and ever since - no steel framed skyscraper (which is what all skyscrapers are) has never before or since collapsed.


A skyscraper has never been hit by a plane of that size before.
Quote
Let's see what an expert has to say about WTC design - an expert on the WTC's architecture: Frank DeMartini - died in collapse


He describes it like mesquito netting being punctured by a pencil...but does that pencil carry tons of jet fuel? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> And the smallest 767 is the size of the largest 707.

And as for that camera shaking video...it looks to be on top of a building...with a helicopter heard in the background...could it be possible that the rotor wash from the helicopter could cause the camera to shake...

or as mentioned earlier...there must have been hundreds of things inside that building that could explode, and steel as thick as the beams used in a building that size would make a tremendous amount of noise breaking.

All your comments and retorts are flat out ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/16/09 07:38 AM

Quote
All your comments and retorts are flat out ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.


Well, the feeling is mutual...

Who stood to gain? Bin Laden? Its just stupid.

Read the PNAC documents - and then look at the world around you since 9-11.

Where's this jet fuel? I see it in the crash. But there is not evidence of it following the fireballz. I hear one of the Battalion chiefs on the impacted floors reporting two isolated pockets of fire and that they could knock it down with two hoses. Multiple crews got to the impacted levels before they came down. I see people standing in the open gashes waving for help. You don't do that in 600 degree temperatures. You don't even stand across the street from a building on fire with those temperatures. It wasn't an intense fire. It wasn't a fire that could weaken steel and subsequently bring down a building with 47 massive steel core pillars encased in concrete down to the ground at free fall speed in a pulverized plume of pyroclastic flows, embedding 270 metric ton sections of the building into buildings 400 feet away. If it was - prove it.

I just don't have the time anymore. If you want to rationalize that the video - which sync's with many others regarding the tremor - is helicopter wash...then go ahead. It doesn't change the reality. It doesn't change the fact that your government refuses to show you the 85 confiscated tapes that had images of whatever it was hitting the pentagon, it doesn't change the fact that bush and blair were dreaming up other false flags as proven by the downing street memo. It doesn't change the fact that the white house deliberately falsified EPA documents regarding air quality at ground zero that has killed and terminally stricken thousands of rescue workers. It doesn't change the fact that Bush and Cheney went on Cipro a few days before 9-11. It doesn't change the fact that Coleen Rowley of the FBI, was repeatedly turned away regarding her pre-9-11 information and requests for a warrant for Mousaoui. It doesn't change the fact that the very guy that wired Atta $200K in the days before 9-11 was breaking bread with George Tenent that morning in D.C...It doesn't change the fact that hijackers were living with FBI informants. It doesn't change the fact that some of the hijackers were living on US military bases. It doesn't change the fact that we now have an Orwellian state brought into being on Patriot Acts of Homeland Insecurity - because of 9-11. It doesn't change the fact that we are now into year 8 of a bogus war that has enhanced the US importation of heroin, killed our troops, endangered the rest, for what? To get bin Laden? Which one? The one with Botox and beard coloring or the one Bhutto said died in 03 or the one Dubai nurses said was chilling with CIA while he was on dialysis in July 01? or the ambidextrous one that 'confesses' 9-11 was his doing?

It also doesn't change the fact that we are in Iraq because Sadam aided and supported al-Quaeda and planned to use them to disseminate his mountains of WMD's either I suppose. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And it doesn't change the fact that the very same powerhouses of neo-con ideology and foreign policy are sitting as pretty as they ever were - this time under their arch-rival antagonist - a democrat liberal. Apparently they even eat out together now.

I guess that means the world's becoming a better place afterall. Props to W&Co. for keeping us all safe. Constitutional liberty was pretty overrated anyways, I mean what good is it if we're all dead from these crazy islamofascists? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/17/09 07:03 AM

Honestly, everything is not a conspiracy but every historical event is shaped by conspiracy. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Did our trustful loving government spend our money on a "gay bomb"? Did our government dose enlisted folks with chemicals and/or psychoactive substances? Did they create a think tank for "false flag" events?

Dang i could go on forever about my suspicions but I dont want to fight nor do I think we should amongst ourselves. That is exactly what they want and we have to resist playing into the divisive plan they have for us. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />






This message of peace was brought to you by "Mirrior Pond Pale Ale" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/17/09 11:55 AM

Quote
That is exactly what they want and we have to resist playing into the divisive plan they have for us.


Ahh - the collusive "WE" and the nefarious "THEY" - the roots of all evil and the seeds of paranoia. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Oyaji_Jon

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/17/09 02:18 PM

Quote
"Mirrior Pond Pale Ale"


THAT is the root of all evil and seed of paranoia...

GAWD, I can't wait to get back and have some of that. It's the little things!!!

Now back to your regularly scheduled bickering...
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/17/09 02:50 PM

Quote
Now back to your regularly scheduled bickering...


<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Naahhhh - here's the latest root of all related bickering and the Truther-sheeps' new-found inspiration:

Alex Jones Loses It

He's some example, eh?

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/17/09 09:00 PM

He's got a way's to go
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/17/09 10:40 PM

Quote
He's got a way's to go


You mean a way to go? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Nahhh - what I don't understand is why folks follow a guy who admits he's down about 20 IQ points and blames it on being brainwashed by society and the drinking water:

Alex Jones & His Alternate Reality

And it seems strange to see someone showing pictures of Nazi goose-steppers in an attempt to form his own legion of brown-shirt goose-steppers.

I guess it's all just a case of "birds of a feather". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What a wacko..... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" />

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Brown81CJ5

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/17/09 10:59 PM

Quote
What a wacko


Couldn't be said any better.

He seems like a Jim Jones kinda character to me.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/17/09 11:38 PM

Yes, but the dudes he outed at Bohemian Grove are completely sane <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/18/09 02:47 AM

Quote
He seems like a Jim Jones kinda character to me.


Yes - it's sorta hard to describe him, though - he's a lot like marijuana and crack dealers...... he gets some folks all paranoid while wasting their time and money to benefit his own pocketbook.

Capitalistic charlatan comes to mind.

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/18/09 03:56 AM

Yeah the guys' just loaded eh? One of your fellow patriots even stalked his house and posted pics and values. He's just oozing in dough. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Not that I'm against capitalism like so many fake conservatives - but as far as accusations go - Get real <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/18/09 06:03 AM

I don't get the connection between Bill getting angry about a problem during taping, Rush making big bucks, and your "ideas".

Bill has a temper, Rush makes money = Conspiracy??

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/18/09 06:08 AM

Yes, I'm afraid that Rush Limbaugh set the example for too many other crazies. Actually, he wasn't so bad at first, but it all soon went to his head and he went wacky, too. I guess that's what all of that protesting and "truth" does to a fellow after a while. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm not against capitalism either - except when the foundation is laid with bullsh*t. If Alex Jones was more "truthful", he'd be able to make even more money..... if he had anything worthwhile to say. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/18/09 06:55 AM

Capitalism founded on bullsh*t

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/18/09 02:01 PM

Quote
Capitalism founded on bullsh*t


Naahhh - that wasn't bullsh*t........ that was a sleight of hand.

And we didn't drop any bombs - we just did a few flyovers.... on the other side of Baghdad... according to 13 eye witnesses in Turkey. It was Saddam's disinformation campaign minister - "Baghdad Bob" - who actually blew up everything. You could tell that was true because seismic activity was recorded just before each building fell down. Oh yeah - the buildings that weren't blown up by Baghdad Bob were hit with WWII T-72 Iraqi tank shells - I know that's true because the first cousin of some Sunni guy smelled cordite. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/19/09 05:13 AM

4,000+ dead make for great comedy eh?

jeez. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/19/09 07:34 AM

Gov regulators aided IndyMac falsification of financial records.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/19/09 12:21 PM

Quote
4,000+ dead make for great comedy eh?


Not a bit more than the 64 on Flight 77 and 125 inside the Pentagon. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />

OTOH, silly paranoia and leapin' logic makes for great comedy. What strikes me as funny is seeing folks spoutin' falsehoods while calling themselves "Truthers".

Frank
Posted By: Tag

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/19/09 04:19 PM

Quote
spoutin' falsehoods


Maybe some but I mainly see people asking questions about some things that are hard to understand as to why they happened.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/19/09 05:33 PM

We must have different ideas of leapin logic and falsehoods.

Falsehoods (click "watch" button on right)

Lying to protect the real story and gagging the truth tellers

These people are liars according to Frank Don't ask him why - they just are.

When the establishment lies, the establishment apologists are silent

...telling.

Silly me - almost forgot the biggest falehood and leap of logic of em all DOH!
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/20/09 01:57 AM

Am I a liberal for being concerned about the 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians? After all it was "operation Iraqi freedom.... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

If you dont see the BS then I cant help you. Drink the coolaid and be an informer for the last reich. I dont care I'm ready!
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/21/09 12:19 AM

That's some pretty good slip-slidin', but none of it shows me how you can get to the reality that:

1) Flight 77 did a fly-over

2) Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon

3) Rolls Royce stated that the rotor found at the Pentagon wasn't from one of their engines

4) The government murdered the passengers of Flight 77

I do believe that's what the subject discussion is all about - the rest of your ornaments -whether true or not - are nothing but straw men wrt these silly claims you make. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/21/09 04:04 PM

The subject discussion was yet another straw man proposed by you regarding the truth movement, alex jones, and their 'falsehood' agendas.

I showed you, yet again, how the establishment has used falsehood which directly related to:

-The deaths of hundreds of thousands in the Middle East
-The deaths and terminal illness of thousands that worked at ground zero
-The official facts regarding 9-11 vs the official claims which, had they not been purposefully blocked, thwarted, concealed, and threatenly protected - would have prevented the event from happening - according to congressmen and army intelligence...but what do they know right. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yet its 'silly' for me and millions of other to doubt the Pentagon when they say FL77 hit the Pentagon but, screw us for demanding to see the EIGHTY plus tapes of FL 77 hitting the pentagon <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/drunk.gif" alt="" />

Speaking of AJ -

Great interview yesterday - Ron Paul and Alex Jones on the new Fuhrer

Part 2

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/patriot.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/21/09 09:23 PM

Treasury pick, Chairman of 'Federal' Reserve of NY - doesn't pay taxes.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/22/09 12:55 AM

Quote
The subject discussion was yet another straw man proposed by you regarding the truth movement, alex jones, and their 'falsehood' agendas.


Not at all - it was injected to show where you get this junk about Flight 77.

Quote
I showed you, yet again, how the establishment has used falsehood which directly related to:

-The deaths of hundreds of thousands in the Middle East
-The deaths and terminal illness of thousands that worked at ground zero
-The official facts regarding 9-11 vs the official claims which, had they not been purposefully blocked, thwarted, concealed, and threatenly protected - would have prevented the event from happening - according to congressmen and army intelligence...but what do they know right.


All you showed me was a bunch of irrelevent stuff that has nothing to do with the silly claims you've made about Flight 77 doing a flyover, Rolls Royce stating the rotor wasn't theirs and direct government involvement in murdering the passengers.

Quote
Yet its 'silly' for me and millions of other to doubt the Pentagon when they say FL77 hit the Pentagon but, screw us for demanding to see the EIGHTY plus tapes of FL 77 hitting the pentagon


Doubting anything isn't silly - doubt can be a healthy thing - but your claims that have no proof or basis in fact are real silly.

I actually agree with you on a lot of "stuff" - but imo you should learn to hold the doubt under control as "doubt" until the investigation is finished and only when there is positive and undeniable proof make the charges as a statement of fact. If you ever expect to make it as a politician, you're gonna need to learn that - or you'll get hammered every time you open your mouth.

There's no charge for the advice..... today. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frank
Posted By: FrankR

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/22/09 02:01 AM

Oh - I almost forgot to let you know that the FBI has photos of the geese that brought down the plane in the Hudson River:

[Linked Image]

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: stony-man

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/22/09 03:25 AM

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> @ sand geese.
Posted By: Brown81CJ5

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/22/09 05:24 PM

It wasn't a bird strike that brought that plane down...it was our own govt....they just weren't expecting such a damned good pilot. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That pic is great Frank! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/23/09 05:38 PM

Whatever you do - dont give a darn....e its on the internet - so its not real. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/notooth.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/26/09 01:13 AM

Quote
The extraordinary impact of the President-elect on the imagination of humanity is an important element in shaping a new world order. But it defines an opportunity, not a policy. The ultimate challenge is to shape the common concern of most countries and all major ones regarding the economic crisis, together with a common fear of jihadist terrorism, into a strategy reinforced by the realisation that the new issues like proliferation, energy and climate change permit no national or regional solution.[/b]

~Kissinger article - Independent

Quote
"Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful. This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government."

~May 21, 1992 - Kissinger address to Bilderberg meeting
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/28/09 08:26 AM

And I'm wack <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Telegraph 'Culture' Picture Galleries:

BlackJack Part 1

Part 2

Quote
According to readers who contacted and questioned the Telegraph as to the origin and meaning of the picture gallery, the response was belligerent and hostile.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: The eons old modus operandi - 01/29/09 10:31 PM

Classic. NewsCorp (AKA Fox News) article... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

I remember these toadies laughing at Ron Paul during the debates regarding the 'North American Union' question. Now look at them.

Not only are they admitting the Working Group on Financial Markets as "a central policy tool" now but "The New World Order is upon us, full of hope, promise and a fair amount of fear."

I suppose its just a coincidence that this previously 'conspiracy theory' jargon are the words of choice of this global network of cheerleaders.

From Kissinger, to Gordon Brown to Obama to Putin to Davos to every major news commentary pushing the big idea "full of hope, promise," and the means of creating order out of chaos. Chaos these pundit crack heads created.

Love your master. And your future - its the only way.

Remember when Limbaugh & Co. used to deny the existence of the CFR? Remember when we were told the Patriot Act was to stop the terrorists? Remember when we were told only wiretaps with a warrant? Remember when FEMA camps was moon bat conspiracy theory?

Quote
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face -- forever."

-Orwell
Posted By: bretwalda

More of those darn'd coincidences - 02/04/09 04:28 AM

Lotsa Minot/Barksdale nuke oops personnel ending up dead...in short order.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: More of those darn'd coincidences - 02/04/09 11:51 PM

It can't get any more fantastical - Like a true brother to the brotherhood - Obama covers for the last regime...and gets BUSTED! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: More of those darn'd coincidences - 02/13/09 08:57 AM

Beijing fire maintains suspension of physics on 9-11-01.
Posted By: stony-man

Re: More of those darn'd coincidences - 02/13/09 03:14 PM

A few things come to mind. WTC Towers were designed in a unique manner. Huge planes hit the tower. Thousands of gallons of fuel were introduced into the buildings. Other than that, I might think differently of the article.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: More of those darn'd coincidences - 02/13/09 04:08 PM

WTC 7 was not hit by a plane. It collapsed around 5pm in 8 seconds.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: More of those darn'd coincidences - 02/13/09 07:32 PM

Inside source reveals FEMA & DHS preparing for mass graves and martial law near Chicago
Posted By: bretwalda

Disrupter Kook Jones exposes Martial Law exercise - 02/22/09 06:16 AM

So Friday this report pops up out of Iowa. announcing a 4 day urban military operation exercise that includes door to door searches, cordoning off neighborhoods, blackhawk helicopters, vehicle searches, and culminating with finding the boogeyman 'weapons dealer'.

Jones got one of the NG Lt. Col's on the show - who had nothing to say off his BS script...although he did admit to being at Katrina and refused to answer about his knowledge of gun confiscations there and Blackwaters role.

This exercise was unprecedented because this is the first time one of these Martial Law exercises used Guardsmen - usually they are Marines and special forces, along side foreign troops. But with PPD51 and the John Warner Def. Authorization Act - which codified the legitimacy of this ongoing rogue gov.- of course they're gonna try to use the Guard.

Well - things have changed a little. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And if you think its BS - watch the footage

Interesting what Beck has heard on the inside. Interesting all the states passing sovereignty declarations...Santelli talking tea parties in Chicago, Brzezinski is poopin his pants on class warfare, Rogers wants to jail the Fed racketeers, Celente says cessation is in the cards...

This is gonna get interesting.
Posted By: bretwalda

Coincidence #??????????????? - 02/22/09 06:18 AM

Yawn.

Yet another 9-11 hijacker's kin turns out to be Mossad.
Posted By: bkg

Re: Coincidence #??????????????? - 02/26/09 04:25 PM

Red or blue - really doesn't matter anymore. I've concluded that if our gov't hadn't been allowed to grow so large and "powerful" from a citizen control perspective, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

I do wonder, with all of this spending and debt that we, the citizens will have to repay, when will someone stand up and complain that the gov't is violating the 13th amendment?
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Coincidence #??????????????? - 02/27/09 09:25 AM

Doh!
Posted By: Tag

Re: Coincidence #??????????????? - 02/28/09 01:27 AM

Old vid but fits in with this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inyCkCvqRO0&feature=related
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Coincidence #??????????????? - 02/28/09 05:29 AM

I thought I put that up here - but certainly worth posting again if so. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> - on the 'capitalism based on BS' posts there are links to some of the docs in that interview.

non related... Wikileaks cracks CentComs master narrative for NATO media hacks [double]speaking on Afghanistan.
Posted By: ChefMark

Re: Coincidence #??????????????? - 03/04/09 03:48 AM

Hmmm fuel to the fire here and it may have been previously posted but....
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331
A slightly one sided against the bush's in general (all politicos are part of the master plan)

And to the Federales watching this thread <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> if I'm gonna be on a watch list might as well shake my money maker.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Coincidence #??????????????? - 03/04/09 06:31 AM

Don't like dissing stuff that exposes the issue but Zeitgeist has some serious problems where it starts pointing the finger. A look at the movie's bibliography is a dead giveaway.

Here's a solid rebuttal that puts a serious challenge to their claims on God issue

Furthermore - the Zeitgeist producers came out with an "addendum" - which was a thinly veiled call for across the board marxism - soviet style. Looking deeper at the mouthpieces used in 'Addendum' - these guys aren't just psychos - they're at the top of the list of the order this movement is amassing a resistance to.

It's amazing when you sit back and think about it that a video produced to castigate Christianity as the dangerous 'myth' uses world renowned and without apology - theosophists, luciferians, and new age 'ascended masters' to produce the goods. And the script itself borrows alot from Alice Bailey's Externalization of the Heirarchy (sometime word for word). Bailey founded Lucifer Publishing, now the Lucis Trust - which is and always was the publishing house for the United Nations.

If that doesn't tell you the how high the stakes have been raised in this movement, and the diabolical nature of what's at stake - then I don't know what is. Zeitgeist is controlled opposition IMO.
Posted By: bretwalda

Beck backs out of Fema Camp report. - 03/04/09 07:45 AM

Glenn Beck backed out of his report on FEMA camps today. I wouldn't hold my breath for a revisiting...Such are the ways of a multi millions corporate mouthpiece that walks the fine line of journalism vs. disseminating only what those who pay his light bill want him to say.

It's interesting that the AJ show and their board admins claim their site is constantly trolled by ip's from Becks studios. And it is uncanny how some of the rhetoric and topics are verbatim from the previous day's AJ show. But who knows.

At any rate Grass - since your a fan - maybe you can help out the man:

KBR contract

A very good bibliography here

Locations and executive orders

More from the mainstream

Hundreds of thousands of plastic coffins on FEMA leased property in Madison GA

Believe what you will

REX 84

National Emergency Centers Establishment Act - "...to meet other appropriate needs, as determined by the Secretary of Homeland Security."

The solution looks pretty well buttoned up. Now all that's needed is the crisis. I'm sure that's in the works too.
Posted By: Tag

Re: Coincidence #??????????????? - 03/04/09 08:26 AM

Quote
Hmmm fuel to the fire here and it may have been previously posted but....
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331
A slightly one sided against the bush's in general (all politicos are part of the master plan)

And to the Federales watching this thread <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> if I'm gonna be on a watch list might as well shake my money maker.


Kind of taking the candy coating off of some history there. I had heard most of this stuff in various places before but never had it all infront of me as a whole picture. A picture that all at once allows the viewer to see a possible way that it may have all worked together. Do I believe it is all 100% correct and what it is all leading to? No but I do look at it as a very realistic possiblity. If that vid is correct about how any of our history after 1907 it is woven together it is amazing that Ron Paul and people that support the destruction of the FED are still alive.
Posted By: bretwalda

Dinga Dinga Dee - 03/13/09 07:14 PM

Israeli military arms corp. Rafael courts the Indian MIC in appropriate form.

Quote
The Israeli arms firm Rafael displayed this Bollywood dance number-based marketing video at the recently held Aero India 2009 in Bangalore. This video has been uploaded for the purpose of embedding on the Defense and Strategic Affairs Online News Magazine, StratPost with the permission of Rafael. Copyright rests with Rafael.
Posted By: bretwalda

Bilderberg on Politico - 03/16/09 02:59 PM

Politico leans coincidence theory o...o secrecy, admitted ruling elite roster.

I like how they have a picture of Paul for the article. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/baby.gif" alt="" />

Back to Hannity, Limbaugh, Reagan, Levine, Beck...where it "doesn't exist"
Posted By: bretwalda

... - 03/16/09 05:05 PM

Friend of the fam was behind the camera on this one.

His buddy was the one shot in face this weekend. American.

Article

Ha'aretz article
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: ... - 03/19/09 03:52 PM

Somewhat whitewashed version - Truth leaking out in Gaza genocide of past months. Soldiers give account of 'coldblooded murder.'

Guardian

Guardian

bbc
Posted By: bretwalda

Some of that weird stuff going down in Phoenix - 03/26/09 10:41 PM

Check the extra pics
Posted By: bretwalda

As predicted - Beck's bait and switch - 03/30/09 02:16 PM

Goes with the 'experts' aka former Entertainment Weekley editor
Posted By: 52degrees

Re: As predicted - Beck's bait and switch - 03/30/09 05:24 PM

Separation of church and state?
Posted By: bkg

Re: As predicted - Beck's bait and switch - 03/30/09 06:27 PM



There is no such thing as Sep. of church and state in the Constitution...
Posted By: 52degrees

Re: As predicted - Beck's bait and switch - 03/30/09 07:03 PM

Quote


There is no such thing as Sep. of church and state in the Constitution...


Duh.
Posted By: 52degrees

Re: As predicted - Beck's bait and switch - 03/30/09 07:05 PM

Quote
Quote


There is no such thing as Sep. of church and state in the Constitution...


Duh.


The fact remains that the very government that wirks so hard to get and keep prayer out of public school is the same government attempting subjugate people through the use of the church.
Posted By: bkg

Re: As predicted - Beck's bait and switch - 03/31/09 02:19 AM

Quote
The fact remains that the very government that wirks so hard to get and keep prayer out of public school is the same government attempting subjugate people through the use of the church.


Interesting - elaborate, please.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: As predicted - Beck's bait and switch - 03/31/09 04:11 PM

I think he's referring to this
Posted By: bretwalda

Boogeyman resurrection - 03/31/09 06:51 PM

Again
Posted By: 52degrees

Re: As predicted - Beck's bait and switch - 03/31/09 06:57 PM

That's mostly what I was talking about. I can't find the link now, but there was more about training clergy to respond to the next "emergency" and to get people to disarm more easily.

I feel very strongly that we will see martial law in this country by the end of December (probably sooner). Geez, I wish I hadn't sold my guns/supplies. I can't afford to replace them now that I feel like I really need them. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: As predicted - Beck's bait and switch - 03/31/09 09:03 PM

Yes there's a doc out there that circulated that wasn't supposed to be leaked. It had a sermon outline in it from Romans 13 to get the lay-folk to goosestep with the stazi. One of the pastors that got it gave it to the AJ show.

Now I'll have to find it <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cyclops.gif" alt="" />

Of course that's just one part of it - have you heard about Infragard? http://www.infragard.net/

Screw it - I'm sending in an app <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Enter Dread Cthulhu vol 9 (3/30-4/5-09) - 04/06/09 05:08 PM

I do this on facebook every week - thought I'd add them to this thread.

Top Ten Reads of the Week

1. General Petraeus: Iran nuke production capability 'couple years away'

2. Left wing media?? Pulitzer winner Seymour Hersh reveals Cheney's assassination ring, gets no press

3. More dead boogey men rise from the dead to carry out 'terror'.

4. Detainee's Torture Foiled No Plots - but it did produce a lot of false information

5. Missouri 'Ron Paul supporters, mili...th help from the Anti Defamation League.

6. Remember, the only killer flu strains out there are right now sitting in government bio-weapons labs. Mass grave site planning for flu pandemic

7. World Bank President Zoellick on ma...roup to monitor national policies."

8. "Most influential scientist in...promotes world wide de-population on BBC ...article predictably concludes by bashing natural foods in favor of genetically modified crap (i.e. untested and/or proven harmful amalgams of plant and animal dna) ...A great article with all the links regarding government/science dictatorship worldwide eugenics agenda here - ...Link

9. Who controls the black bloc anarchists? ...That site has ongoing reporting on the latest agent provocateuring at the G20.

10. High tech thermite found in multiple samples of World Trade Center debris from 9-11

<b>Flashback of the Week</b>

In the spirit of #10 - Scott Forbes was employed by Fiduci...to 9-11 is worthy of your consideration.

Government Document of the Week

Not technically a government doc bu...plan for New World Order (just released)
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Enter Dread Cthulhu vol 9 (3/30-4/5-09) - 04/06/09 05:39 PM

Some feel that British guys account isn't true:

Forbes hoax

Interesting reads though...I'm not on board yet, but keep posting, and I'll keep reading.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Enter Dread Cthulhu vol 9 (3/30-4/5-09) - 04/07/09 07:17 PM

Well, I wouldn't end it with Jim Hoffmans site. The guy is a very dubious character. And his counter is typical of steering the evidence (or in there case lack of) toward a single answer vs. letting the evidence speak.

EG - his 'implausible' bullet points. All I can say from my own experience the guy is full of poo. I've seen a total powerdown in a building I've worked in for wiring upgrades. (Not that it matters as the claim is that is what was told to him. The claim is not that it was needed to upgrade the system. Obviously Forbes saw it as a bogus cover for rigging the building) Security cameras typically DO NOT have independent power backups...regardless its something he counters with no basis for the contrary.

...and of course its what disinfo ppl like this leave out that's the most egregious. Fact: NY papers reported the removal of the bomb sniffing dogs on the Thursday before the attack, sourcing employees of the security contractors for the building. And isn't just a happy coincidence that it was Marvin Bush's company that provided the entire security management of the buildings.

...and these statements regarding their removal were submitted to the 9-11 Omission - of course, like everything else - they were not mentioned at all in the commission's findings.

Scott Forbes did an interview and it should be on youtube. AFAIK he was the only survivor of those in his company that worked there.

There are pictures out there that WTC office workers took of the dust that covered their offices after various weekends of drilling and God knows what on these sealed off and guarded floors above/below them...

BTW - that article on the thermite was previously published as a peer reviewed study in Chemical Physics journal

Some Glenn Beck for comic relief
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Enter Dread Cthulhu vol 9 (3/30-4/5-09) - 04/08/09 03:49 AM

Dobbs takes the red pill
Posted By: 52degrees

Re: Enter Dread Cthulhu vol 9 (3/30-4/5-09) - 04/08/09 05:04 AM

That's exactly correct. A buddy of mine is in the National Guard and he was sent to the border to "assist" the border patrol. They (the National Guard) were allowed to do NOTHING other than drag a chain link fence up and down the border to clear the footprints so they could count them the next day. He'd tell us about the drug cartel's sniper towers on the Mexico side.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Enter Dread Cthulhu vol 9 (3/30-4/5-09) - 04/09/09 06:57 AM

If that stuff interests you take a look at Hopsicker. He lives down in the middle of the action in FL. The straight dope.

He's the guy that video interviewed Atta's girlfriend...

A little sampling of how it works: 1999 - Richard Grasso, chair of the New York Stock Exchange meets Raul Reyes, a commander of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), which at the time controlled about a third of Colombia and about half of its coca-producing area...Grasso went there to mark "the beginning of a new relationship between the FARC and the United States" ~Grasso.

Awww, so sweet...

[Linked Image]

...when you look into the CIA/Wall Street connections - at the top no less, it's just stunning - all the way back to its beginnings by Clark Clifford, Dulles, etc.
Posted By: bretwalda

Senior Council to 9-11 commission... - 04/16/09 04:34 PM

"At some level of the governme...ell the truth about what happened."

-John Farmer

Not available on the US amazon site...link to Canada's site.

"In August 2006, the Washington Post reported, "Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public rather than a reflection of the fog of events on that day, according to sources involved in the debate."

"The report revealed how the 10-member commission deeply suspected deception to the point where they considered referring the matter to the Justice Department for criminal investigation.

"We to this day don't know why NORAD [the North American Aerospace Command] told us what they told us," said Thomas H. Kean, the former New Jersey Republican governor who led the commission. "It was just so far from the truth. . . . It's one of those loose ends that never got tied."

Farmer himself is quoted in the Post article, stating, "I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described .... The [Norad air defense] tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years.... This is not spin. This is not true."
Posted By: bretwalda

Enter Dread Cthulhu Vol 11 - 04/20/09 04:26 AM

Top Ten Reads (and vids) of the Week

1. Germany Bans Cultivation of GM Corn

2. Harvard economist: Legalize all dr...alternative scenario in the Netherlands.

3. Germany deletes WikiLeaks.de domain after raid

4. Self Righteous Neocon Republicans Complain about DHS Report (The report was written in 2007)

5. Bill Richardson at 2008 CFR-meeting: Bilderberg Bankers are all for Obama

6. Noooo, couldn't be....NSA wiretaps exceed the law

7. 'They were just following orders.' ... protected from prosecution under Obama.

8. Rethink afghanistan ...And a followup - Link 2

9. Sustainable Development = Population Reduction.

Population Reduction - Part 2

10. ORGANIZATION ISSUING BONDS BASED ON GUARANTEED PAYMENTS FOR THE VACCINATION OF POOR POPULATIONS

Flashback of the Week

In the spirit of the OK City Bombing - 14 years ago this Sunday...lifting this from a researcher friend of mine:

"I came across a really solid mainstream news investigation special that dives deep into
the Oklahoma City bombing operation in 1995. Namely, that Mcveigh and Nichols were
being strung along by intelligence operatives as well as provocatuered Islamic extremists.
As well, that the ATF had total foreknowledge, and that shape chargers placed on the Alfred P Murrah columns was what truly destroyed the building:

Part 1

Part 2

Alex Jones also has a really great segment on some of this stuff in his 9/11: Road to Tyranny documentary, and the BBC Conspiracy Files actually had a decent special on some of this stuff.
Then there's the fact that Zacharious Moussaoui's roomate on the campus of Oklahoma City(Melvin Lattimore) was positively identified as working with Mcveigh and the other OKC terrorists as well as the WTC 1993 terrorists.

And of course the fact Terry Nichols spilled the beans on OKC being a government op:

Link

Even more bizarre, are the reports that "John Doe No 2" Hussain al-Husseini, a man authorities believed worked with Mcveigh...was the baggage handler at Boston Logan the morning of 9/11.

Also, a lot of reports on Terry Nichols meeting with accused WTC plotter and KSM cousin
Ramzi Yousef in the Philippines: Google"
Posted By: bretwalda

Taking bribes for the zionist criminal network - 04/21/09 04:53 AM

Rep. Jane Harman Caught on Tape Agreeing to Lobby for Alleged AIPAC/Israel Spies
Posted By: bretwalda

Turner Construction - 04/22/09 04:16 AM

Port Authority of NY/NJ: Records For Reported WTC Renovation Work Destroyed On 9/11

Quote
Turner Construction, who supervised the 2000 demolition of the Seattle Kingdome, participated in the post-9/11 Ground Zero clean-up and performed extensive renovations within the World Trade Center towers just prior to 9/11, was in fact performing unspecified renovation work throughout the WTC complex until the very morning of September 11, 2001. The Port Authority of NY/NJ now claims that records describing such work or other projects were destroyed on September 11, 2001. A December 2000 WTC property assessment described required renovation work to be completed within one year, upon steel columns within elevator shafts of both WTC towers that was immediately pending or already underway.


Scroll down the page - Adian's research is good.
Posted By: 52degrees

Re: Turner Construction - 04/22/09 11:49 PM

The company I currently work for sometimes does work for Turner. Mainly painting nanothermite on steel columns to be covered with fireproofing.
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Turner Construction - 04/23/09 03:06 AM

Could that have something to do with the bugged razor you had? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: 52degrees

Re: Turner Construction - 04/23/09 05:51 AM

Probably not. I think you'll find the same bug in any of those razors. I don't think mine was special.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Turner Construction - 04/23/09 06:42 AM

Quote
The company I currently work for sometimes does work for Turner. Mainly painting nanothermite on steel columns to be covered with fireproofing.


I take it you're not buying the nanothermite report? Has JREF gotten to you? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: 52degrees

Re: Turner Construction - 04/23/09 08:03 AM

I just thought it would be funny to say.

But, no. I don't believe the nanothermite report. Not without some better explaination of how they improved upon rust and aluminum filings as a combustable material. Also, I don't think they could paint it on thick enough to get metal that thick hot enough to cause a structural failure. But then, I haven't seen the stuff or how it's supposedly applied.

Basically, I think the nanothermite paint theory is a distraction. I do believe that the event was a controlled demo.
Posted By: Tag

Re: Turner Construction - 04/23/09 01:20 PM

What is JREF?
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Turner Construction - 04/23/09 04:33 PM

James Randi Forums - a posse who tirelessly defend (with the only thing they've got left - character assassination and Mark Roberts <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> ) the big fail we call federal government.

I agree applying a layer doesn't make sense - But that's the da-bunkers saying that. That report only says its trace pieces of thermite, and the microspheres found within could only be produced by a superheated reaction typical in thermite. I think its a distraction for those of us that can accept the obvious - but it was peer reviewed. That was a big deal for those that hang their conclusions on such things (or lack thereof).
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Turner Construction - 04/23/09 07:59 PM

Weird crap going down in Seward - you hearing anything on this Margie?
Posted By: 52degrees

Re: Turner Construction - 04/24/09 12:07 AM

Thermite is used to weld large structural pieces too. Maybe that's what they're finding?
Posted By: kewlynx

Re: Turner Construction - 04/24/09 01:16 AM

If you're going to ask disjointed questions, ya might want to clarify.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Turner Construction - 04/24/09 08:56 PM

Weird call-ins from the airwaves. DHS slinking around the town profiling buildings with photos they're carrying. They are shutting down all access out of the town for the weekend (to the outrage of locals who said there's no reason to shut down all of the bridges at once)...

Sorry - I've got more randomness on the way
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Turner Construction - 04/24/09 08:58 PM

Outed!
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Turner Construction - 04/25/09 02:41 AM

Go Israel.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Turner Construction - 04/26/09 01:15 AM

Why?
Posted By: LandRaider

Re: Turner Construction - 04/26/09 04:45 AM

Phil.... Please don't take this personally, BUT.

Go listen to the latest survival podcast. I think this is the way most of us feel. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Turner Construction - 04/26/09 05:06 AM

Typical.

Believe what you will.

The thread is done. Find your own truth.
Posted By: LandRaider

Re: Turner Construction - 04/26/09 07:00 AM

Hey man....I don't know whats "typical", but I'm not saying to stop posting in this thread at all. It's providing quite a bit of entertainment for me at least.

I have a strong distrust of those in power, but at the same time I don't think the gvmt could keep these sotrs of things under wraps. Look at watergate for instance. Or was that a conspiracy to get nixon out of the way? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Turner Construction - 04/26/09 08:13 AM

Sorry dude. Just don't have time anymore. This depressed economy has been good for me as far as work <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's all out there. Plenty of insiders have come forward (I have a feeling I posted a list of some of those here). We wouldn't be debating it if it was under wraps. The only thing under wraps are docs and evidence withheld under claims of 'national security'.

...I'm still trying to figure out what part of our nation is secure by the witholding of info - to this day - relating to the JFK plot.

...it all comes out sooner or later





I'll cap it with this:

The last time there was a swine flu outbreak it was sourced at, and only at Fort Dix (9-01 anthrax anyone?): Wired mag

Enter swine flu outbreak...
AP - Arizona Daily Star -

Quote
CDC officials detected a virus with a unique combination of gene segments that have not been seen in people or pigs before. The bug contains a human virus, an avian virus from North America and pig viruses from North America, Europe and Asia.


Now how the hell does that happen?

Dr. John Carlo, Dallas Co. Medical Director

Quote
This strain of swine influenza that’s been cultured in a laboratory is something that’s not been seen anywhere actually in the United States and the world, so this is actually a new strain of influenza that’s been identified


Baxter partnered with Indonesia to get their hands on the bird flu strain back in 06 or so. To my knowledge they are the only corp with access to it.

Aside from the fact that H5N1 avian...y' contained LIVE bird flu virus.

Quote
Public health authorities concerned about what has been described as a “serious error” on Baxter’s part have assumed the death of the ferrets meant the H5N1 virus in the product was live. But the company, Baxter International Inc., has been parsimonious about the amount of information it has released about the event.

On Friday, the company’s director of global bioscience communications confirmed what scientists have suspected.

“It was live,” Christopher Bona said in an email.

The contaminated product, which Baxter calls “experimental virus material,” was made at the Orth-Donau research facility. Baxter makes its flu vaccine — including a human H5N1 vaccine for which a licence is expected shortly — at a facility in the Czech Republic.


You won't find these kinda questions in MSM here (let alone a single story on this)...Czech news report:

Quote
“Was this just a criminal negligence or it was an attempt to provoke pandemia using vaccination against flu to spread the disease - as happened with the anti-B hepatitis vaccination with vaccines containing the HIV virus in US? - and then cash for the vaccines against H5N1 which Baxter develops? How could on Earth a virus as H5N1 come to the ordinary flu vaccines? Don’t they follow even basic precautions in the american pharma companies?”


(BTW I believe Bayer insiders went to jail on CONSPIRACY charges regarding that HepB scam)

...back to the swine flu outbreak...
Generate the crisis - provide the solution

Yayyy! - WHO was stockpiling, stocks are rallying, Baxter will cash in too on Monday - Wooohooo!


Happy coincidenting (@9:48)


Posted By: bretwalda

Some dude takes the red pill - 05/13/09 04:47 PM

Starts thinking outside the idiot box

Quote
If these sophisticated military systems were designed to detect missiles fired from unknown locations at over 13,000 mph and shoot them down in mere minutes, why on 9/11 could they not detect any one of the four large airliners traveling at a mere 600 mph, especially when two of them were known to be lost for over 40 minutes before they crashed?


Quote
How is it possible that the Pentagon's highly touted missile detections systems could not locate Flight 77 in the 42 minutes it was known to be lost before it crashed into the heart of the defense system of the U.S.?


Quote
Why is it that the 9/11 Commission budget was far less than the budget allotted to the Challenger space shuttle disaster or even the Monica Lewinsky affair
Posted By: Hydra747

Re: Red Pill Thread - 05/14/09 03:56 AM

Statements of a pretty deep nature......Almost forgot ur name ...it has been a while........ Chris----Musta been the wine! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/drunk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/drunk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/drunk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/drunk.gif" alt="" />

I know what ur talking about...but that link is broke up! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/angry.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Not a peep in der Faderland - 05/17/09 06:55 AM

Bilderberg
Posted By: bretwalda

On the NY 'terror' plot - 05/21/09 03:24 PM

How come people don't get this?
Posted By: 4x4Wire

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 05/21/09 06:51 PM

Quote
How come people don't get this?


Job security....

The concepts exceed the 15 second or less attention span of most people....
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 05/22/09 06:56 AM

It's sad when the Daily Show breaks it all down the best. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 05/30/09 06:38 AM

Richard Gage on Fresno, CA Fox 26 May 27th
Posted By: stony-man

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 05/31/09 06:53 AM

I've seen videos that contradict that dude on everything he's saying...just saying. Somebody's wrong/lying, that's for sure.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 05/31/09 07:54 AM

Who gains by lying? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The only vid you need is one of the building collapsing, and then review the law of conservation of momentum.
Posted By: StockRaider

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 05/31/09 09:37 AM

freefall speeds would be around 10 seconds, they took longer than that to fall. Stop pushing that idea when its flawed. Are you going to start talking like Jesse Ventura and say they used Thermite paint? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 05/31/09 08:08 PM

Hmmmm - tell me. How long did it take for them to fall?
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 06/10/09 08:32 PM

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/sleeping.gif" alt="" /> ...

NIST says WTC1 fell in 11 seconds and WTC2 in 9 seconds...as well as the 9-11 Ommission.

So what exactly about "about 10 seconds" is 11 and 9 seconds not 'about' "near freefall speeds"?

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: StockRaider

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 06/10/09 08:52 PM

I am not a physicist at all, and nor are you at least from what I know. We are both google searching these subjects as we argue. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> But I was watching a show on the History channel about after people are gone. Two had building collapses explaining that the buildings collapsing from structural failures from halfway up or greater are collapsing becoming greater in mass and weight pancaking and putting more weight on the next floor breaking it faster and faster all the way down.

Also, here is a forum that might better explain it than me. Link

I am trying my ass off to find sources that aren't biased one way or the other. Try it sometime. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 06/10/09 10:35 PM

LOL - the infamous NOVA episode - where it shows the pancaking layers (THEORY which NIST later discounted)...with the core columns still standing. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

NOVA

You may be googling but I've done my research. Coming to a conclusion doesn't denote bias. One conclusion favors the official story even in spite of its own contradictory claims and obfuscation and ommission of facts, and the other says the evidence leaves only one scenario possible.

Al quaeda didn't order NORAD to stand down - or are you willing to believe things even the 9-11 commission won't capitulate to?

Believe what you will. .... good boy <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 06/23/09 10:48 PM

Another 9-11 Fed employed whisteblower on the run goes public.
Posted By: K_Raider

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 06/24/09 06:29 AM

That interview reminds me of the interviews they do with the "natural cures guy" thats on late at night. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 06/25/09 04:19 AM

Cognitive dissonance?
Posted By: K_Raider

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 06/25/09 07:43 AM

After reading the definition, I still don't know what it means. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 06/28/09 04:39 AM

Citizen Investigation Team (discussed here earlier) released their presentation and new site a few days ago:

Link
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: On the NY 'terror' plot - 07/09/09 03:52 AM

Government Whistleblowers - TONS.

(by weight <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )
Posted By: bretwalda

Red Pill Thread - 08/11/09 06:39 PM

WACO Revelations - Full documentary
Posted By: LandRaider

Re: Red Pill Thread - 08/12/09 08:06 AM



Did you watch this in it's entirety?

VERY interesting that the guy who shot Jack Rubys wife was on scene, and in control of the sniper team that had empty casings left behind, but "Fired no shots"

I'm surprised that guy did not get burned out of his career for shooting an unarmed woman holding a baby.
Posted By: bretwalda

science dictatorship - 08/15/09 07:38 AM

This is what I mean by "science dictatorship"
Posted By: Mad_Scientist

Re: science dictatorship - 08/19/09 12:29 PM



Haha! I grew near the UEA. Sad that such a well respected institution should be associated with these people.

Are scientists supposed to be infallible? We are all...I don't know...saint-like? How does the actions of this person reflect the entire scientific community?

These are the 'hockey stick' graph people. The computer model was developed in association with the MET office and led to their embarrassment at not being able to predict weather accurately. The computer model was flawed. I don't know if they fixed it though.

I read a different story about this in Nature News which said they 'lost' the written agreements between various nations about restricting access to the data, but nothing about loosing the data itself. I doubt those agreements are legal anyway because of freedom of information laws. While the CRU should be publishing these raw data regularly, I support the idea of restricting access to data until publication. I can't count the sleepless nights I've had about work that has taken me years to do, waiting for my boss to get around to reading my manuscripts before submission for publication (this has also taken years! Very wrong). There is a high level of competition in science. Scientists love to be the 'first' or to demonstrate that another scientist was wrong. Why would you potentially damage your progress by sharing raw data as it comes in?

The problem with climate change science is that governments have too much to loose if what we discover something about the planet that forces them to act. Medical science is different because better disease prevention/treatment means they have to spend/do less. You think NIH money is there purely from the goodness of the governments heart? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> It's an investment, and thank goodness they see it that way for the good of you, your family, your friends...

What else you got about how science is controlling your life?
Posted By: FrankR

Re: science dictatorship - 08/19/09 03:34 PM

Quote
Professor Phil Jones, the activist-scientist who maintains the data set, has cited various reasons for refusing to release the raw data. Most famously, Jones told an Australian climate scientist in 2004:

Even if WMO agrees, I will still not pass on the data. We have 25 or so years invested in the work. Why should I make the data available to you, when your aim is to try and find something wrong with it.


Now, that would be funny if it wasn't so dumb. If his work was accurate, there would be nothing found wrong with it, so why (for that reason) would he mind someone making corrections in his 25 years of work? Wouldn't he want to know if he had made a mistake and would forever produce flawed reports based on incorrect assumptions? Shouldn't scientists be concerned with accuracy and TRUTH?

That right there is enough reason to cast doubt on anything that comes from that fellow. If he and his work won't stand scrutiny, why would he or his work be of value to me?

Frank
Posted By: Mad_Scientist

Re: science dictatorship - 08/19/09 04:22 PM

I totally agree with everything you say Frank.

It's not productive to say that science is a dictatorship on the basis of a few people like Phil Jones, who seems to be acting like a spoiled 5 year old. The data should have been published regularly for ALL to see <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" /> Having said that, if the computer model he/they used is flawed, who wants to see the data anyway?
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: science dictatorship - 08/20/09 11:07 PM

They want to see it because it was his data that was used by the UN's IPCC's revelations & 'recommendations'. It is the IPCC that started and perpetuates the scam under the auspices of the global governing body of the UN.
Posted By: Mad_Scientist

Re: science dictatorship - 08/21/09 08:47 PM

Quote
They want to see it because it was his data that was used by the UN's IPCC's revelations & 'recommendations'. It is the IPCC that started and perpetuates the scam under the auspices of the global governing body of the UN.


Oh my, what a cock-up <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I stand by my earlier comments <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: science dictatorship - 08/22/09 05:24 AM

Quote
Quote
They want to see it because it was his data that was used by the UN's IPCC's revelations & 'recommendations'. It is the IPCC that started and perpetuates the scam under the auspices of the global governing body of the UN.


Oh my, what a cock-up <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I stand by my earlier comments <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


??

Quote
the CRU Global Climate Dataset, is the most cited surface temperature record by the UN IPCC. So any errors in CRU cascade around the world, and become part of "the science".


I stand by mine. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

IPCC task force 'working groups'. There's really nothing debatable about it. Ever hear of 'wetlands' legislation? Same deal (i.e. pull a crisis out their <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/butwiggle.gif" alt="" /> and then benevolently provide us with legal binding 'solutions'). UN. 1971 Ramsar Convention.
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: science dictatorship - 08/23/09 05:28 PM

Allow me to clarify....All scientists are people. There are honest people, people that make mistakes and people thyat are also subject to corruption.

Jumble up those variables and both points happen.
Posted By: Mad_Scientist

Re: science dictatorship - 08/24/09 01:38 PM

Quote
Allow me to clarify....All scientists are people. There are honest people, people that make mistakes and people thyat are also subject to corruption.

Jumble up those variables and both points happen.


I could not have said it better myself. It's just a fact of life.

Quote
become part of "the science"


I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that if scientific data is published and cited frequently that it must then be held as the truth? Science has been wrong before (stop press). Because of the progressive nature of science, this is not a problem.

If the UN IPCC relied so heavily on data that was potentially suspect (and we don't know that it is, and we also don't know if the data HAS been lost) then more fool them. No one forced them to do so.

This expectation of infallibility from the scientific community as a whole is unrealistic.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: science dictatorship - 08/24/09 06:18 PM

Quote
This expectation of infallibility from the scientific community as a whole is unrealistic.


I agree.

Don't take this as an insult, because it's not intended as such - but - the convenience of that "infallibility" TRUTH should call into question the potential for inaccuracy of other unproven scientific opinions - like the origin of the universe and matter itself, should it not? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I know you agree, because you already said you agreed with everything I say. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: science dictatorship - 08/24/09 08:10 PM

LOLZ. He better hurry up with this con. Ken Lay is bored and lonely down in S.A.
Posted By: Mad_Scientist

Re: science dictatorship - 08/24/09 09:27 PM

Quote
I know you agree, because you already said you agreed with everything I say. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> I did say that, didn't I <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ignore.gif" alt="" /> (I laughed pretty hard about that <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />)

Quote
Don't take this as an insult, because it's not intended as such - but - the convenience of that "infallibility" TRUTH should call into question the potential for inaccuracy of other unproven scientific opinions - like the origin of the universe and matter itself, should it not?


No offense.

Yes, and it does. I'll say no more right now since I sense this is either a rhetorical or a loaded question <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: FrankR

Re: science dictatorship - 08/24/09 10:18 PM

Quote
Yes, and it does. I'll say no more right now since I sense this is either a rhetorical or a loaded question


Nope - you Brits have no sense of humor at all. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> But you do have a sense of humour - whatever that is. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Mad_Scientist

Re: science dictatorship - 08/25/09 03:17 AM

Quote
Quote
Yes, and it does. I'll say no more right now since I sense this is either a rhetorical or a loaded question


Nope - you Brits have no sense of humor at all. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Well, in that case... I'm not sure I would use the word 'opinions' though. Anything taken seriously must be, at the very least, a well thought out hypothesis. Of course, a hypothesis must extend from what is known already. However, even pretty convincing evidence can be overturned by something new and more powerful.

One such situation, which I teach to students, and involves lactic acid. Most think it's a waste product and makes our muscles sore after exercise. It does nothing of the sort as we now know. Interestingly, if you remove the newer data about lactic acid the old theory becomes convincing again, albeit with gaps.

This is why it's so important to view science kind of like a perpetual lava flow. Always moving steadily, with new lava covering the old, but the old is still there if you look for it. Or something like that anyway <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cyclops.gif" alt="" /> Of course some theories, no matter how much you scrutinize them, using new tools and technology they still make complete sense to those who care to understand them. Newton, Darwin, Einstein for example <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Tag

Re: science dictatorship - 08/25/09 03:00 PM

Quote
One such situation, which I teach to students, and involves lactic acid. Most think it's a waste product and makes our muscles sore after exercise. It does nothing of the sort as we now know. Interestingly, if you remove the newer data about lactic acid the old theory becomes convincing again, albeit with gaps.


I did not know that the old theory was wrong. When did they figure that out and what is the current idea? PM me response so you can keep this on topic.
Posted By: 52degrees

Re: science dictatorship - 08/25/09 08:34 PM

No way! Post it up. I want to know too.
Posted By: hazy_daze

Re: science dictatorship - 08/25/09 09:21 PM

So, they had it wrong in A Few Good Man???
Posted By: 52degrees

Re: science dictatorship - 08/25/09 11:58 PM

Quote
So, they had it wrong in A Few Good [color:"red"] Man[/color]???


Umm... Isn't it rather difficult to have many of one?
Posted By: stony-man

Re: science dictatorship - 08/26/09 04:49 AM

It's easy to have one of many though. smile
Posted By: Mad_Scientist

Re: science dictatorship - 08/26/09 10:03 PM

OK, got a little time.

So most of you who went through this in school biology class were probably told that the end product of glycolysis (remember, the initial anaerobic breakdown of glucose or glycogen?) was pyruvate. Pyruvate then enters mitochondria, looses a carbon and a hydrogen, becoming the 2 carbon molecule Acetyl-CoA (with me so far?). Acetyl-CoA enters the Krebs Cycle by combining with the 4 carbon oxaloaccetate to make the 6 carbon citrate and off it goes around Krebs (I doubt it's really a circle <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />). If glycolysis goes too fast, the extra pyruvate cannot enter the mitochondria fast enough and so any leftover is converted to lactate and sent out of the cell causing a rise in blood lactate, fatigue and muscle soreness 1-2 days later. Sound OK?

There are three principle problems with this idea;

1. A reduced NAD (NADH) needs to be oxidized back to NAD to be reduced again during the 2nd phase of glycolysis. If this doesn't happen, glycolysis will slow or even stop...that's a problem! The NADH can be oxidized by lactate dehydrogenase by converting pyruvate to lactate at the end of glycolysis, thus re-cycling the NAD. So, lactate must then be the end product of glycolysis if glycolysis is to continue.

2. If pyruvate is the important molecule that enters the mitochondia for further energy production, why would there be lactate shuttle systems embedded in the mitochondiral membrane? If lactate is the end product of glycolysis, there is no pyruvate available to enter the mitochondira. It appears that lactate is in fact shuttled in to the mitochondiral inner membrane space where it is converted back to pyruvate by lactate dehydrogenase and the rest we know. This seems to happen for the sole purpose of oxidizing those NADH's in the cytoplasm so glycolysis can continue. Now, if the lactate shuttles become saturated (i.e. high levels of lactate because glycolysis is going too fast. High intensity exercise for example) then excess lactate is shuttled out of the cell causing a rise in blood lactate levels.

3. Lactate is not a waste product. Actually, it is a source of energy, like glucose. Organs like the brain and heart love to use lactate and the liver converts excess blood lactate back to glycogen for storage and later use. Also, high lactate levels, in blood and muscle, after intense exercise typically return to resting levels within ~15 minutes of rest. So lactate is not a good candidate for causing delayed onset muscle soreness, which occurs 1-2 days after the exercise (there's another theory about that).

Essentially, we produce lactate ALL the time. It only becomes a problem when we produce it faster than we can use it.

A final note about lactic acid and lactate. The true end product of glycolysis is likely lactic acid. However, once formed, lactic acid quickly looses a hydrogen ion and becomes the salt lactate.

That's it in a nutshell. Anyone awake? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />

Clay, why the interest (of which I'm glad)? I though you, Phil and others didn't believe in science <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: 52degrees

Re: science dictatorship - 08/27/09 12:05 AM

Quote


Clay, why the interest (of which I'm glad)? I though you, Phil and others didn't believe in science <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />


Without trying to pick another fight, and I'm taking a bit of a privilege lumping bretwalda here with me; It's not science we have a problem with. It's politically driven "science". As I said before, in this country, science (as we hear of it on the evening news) is politics and politics is (a) religion.

It's not that all science is BS, I just don't believe anything I hear on the news or in print.

Science... real, apolitical science, is tremendously interesting to me. I've always had a passion for chemistry and physics, as well as other physical sciences. And science of the body is really interesting.

While I understand that many real and beneficial discoveries have come about due to government funding of science, I believe that our government's involvement in science has taken a severely wrong turn. Their motives for involvement in science are no longer to be trusted.

I hope this clears things up.

Phil?
Posted By: Mad_Scientist

Re: science dictatorship - 08/27/09 03:11 AM

Clay, I never thought you picked fights. I haven't been offended by anything you've said, not that my offense would be your responsibility anyway <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />

I agree with much of what you said above. My view of your position on this issue has changed considerably. I also think that government involvement is science can be ethically questionable. However, I do think it's important to consider that problematic government involvement dependents on the type of science. I worked at a federally funded research institute for 6 years (NIEHS) and I can say that the science we did in the lab and the papers we published (still writing them) was not overseen or influenced by government agenda at all. I could have done whatever I liked and I did. But medical research will only serve to help the government and cost them less. It would be hard to make the situation worst for the government in that case. The other problem is if the government didn't spend millions and millions of dollars on medical research, who would pay for it? Yes, there are other sources of funding, but not in the same league as NIH.

Having said that, other science should be conducted independently of government. Climate research is one example of where the government could benefit greatly from censorship.

Whatever the government's motive for funding NIH is, while that money is spent for the greater good, I'm happy.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: 4x4Wire

Re: science dictatorship - 08/27/09 10:34 AM

Quote

Having said that, other science should be conducted independently of government. Climate research is one example of where the government could benefit greatly from censorship.

Whatever the government's motive for funding NIH is, while that money is spent for the greater good, I'm happy.


And, how could the government benefit from climate research censorship?

From what I have been reading, anything that does not fit the "inconvenient truth" is labeled "junk science". That is a form of censorship.

I don't have a problem with the government funding NIH or other studies where the money is spent for the greater good. I do have a problem with projects not being funded that could be counter to the current political agenda.
Posted By: cmonty72

Re: science dictatorship - 08/27/09 04:58 PM

Quote
A reduced NAD


<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> Ha HA you said ....oh nevermind. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/drunk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: science dictatorship - 08/27/09 08:29 PM

Gotta go to Russia to get this kind of news.

85%. And? ...crickets. On orders from the White House to L-I-E.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/barf.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: stony-man

Re: science dictatorship - 08/28/09 04:48 AM

Quote
Quote


Clay, why the interest (of which I'm glad)? I though you, Phil and others didn't believe in science <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />


Without trying to pick another fight, and I'm taking a bit of a privilege lumping bretwalda here with me; It's not science we have a problem with. It's politically driven "science". As I said before, in this country, science (as we hear of it on the evening news) is politics and politics is (a) religion.

It's not that all science is BS, I just don't believe anything I hear on the news or in print.

Science... real, apolitical science, is tremendously interesting to me. I've always had a passion for chemistry and physics, as well as other physical sciences. And science of the body is really interesting.

While I understand that many real and beneficial discoveries have come about due to government funding of science, I believe that our government's involvement in science has taken a severely wrong turn. Their motives for involvement in science are no longer to be trusted.

I hope this clears things up.

Phil?


Put me in that lump too, bro. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: science dictatorship - 08/31/09 03:39 PM

In plain, federal documented view. 9-11 commission lies about Atta-Moussaoui meeting.

And no, The 9-11 Commission comic book edition makes no alterations to this common problem either.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

swine flu martial law - 09/01/09 09:21 PM

Florida detention docs

FL home detention docs

Facility Quarantine - no enter or leave

Iowa home detention
Posted By: FrankR

Re: swine flu martial law - 09/01/09 10:27 PM

OK, it's all beginning to make sense to me now. The federal government has unleashed the swine flu on the populace in order to have an excuse to lock up everybody, declare martial law - and while we're all indoors and not looking, do something horrible....... like.... ummmmm...... dang, I can't think of anything.

Help me out, Phil. What are they gonna do to us?

Frank
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: swine flu martial law - 09/03/09 08:00 PM

No Frank you've got it all wrong. The government LOOOOOVES you. Oh sure they make mistakes - itty bittty ones, but that's all it is. Some too are misguided of course, and so can appear to be naughty, but they're just trying their best - afterall they are only public servants. They only, alllllways, have your highest interests in mind.

Now, file quietly and orderly to your nearest vaccination station and let our loving, caring, humanitarian, CDC place their most excellent attenuated, squalene-icious, happy juice into your veins. Because that's what vaccines really are - gut bustin happy juice.

Afterall, who on earth could ever conceive the idea that martial law and home interventions , mass roundups, eugenics campaigns, and profiteering at the expense of the uninformed has ever, or will ever happen? Certainly any suggestion of such is, is....

...PrePosssteroussss.

Wait. Those links say they are from state cdc urls? I can't believe this!! Those crazy conspiracy theorist conspirators have done it again with their tricks!! They are unleashing terror with the support of Al Qaeda no doubt! We must take appropriate action . And we must put safeguards on the internet to protect us all from these nefarious CYBORTERRORZ!



....if people are informed and resolute 'they' will do nothing. I'm not sure where it will shake down on this one.
Posted By: Mad_Scientist

Re: swine flu martial law - 09/03/09 08:22 PM

Quote
Because that's what vaccines really are - gut bustin happy juice.


Phil, you drive a Montero which just shows what an intelligent guy you are ( <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), but come on, that comment is just plain silly <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: swine flu martial law - 09/03/09 08:28 PM

mandatory
Posted By: StockRaider

Re: swine flu martial law - 09/03/09 08:31 PM

I gotta say, I had a vaccine last year when I went to get a thing removed from my neck. I am fine, and I am not setting off store alarms or being followed by black vans... Oh wait, their is a knock at my door Oh shi- <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/lol.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: swine flu martial law - 09/03/09 11:07 PM

See. There you go. I'm gonna ask for two doses. It can't hurt.
Posted By: motero

Re: swine flu martial law - 09/04/09 01:23 AM

This reminds me of Will smith and the Zombies, after they think they know what they are doing, every one turns in to a zombie. They have military quarantines and every thing. No Thanks.
Posted By: FrankR

Re: swine flu martial law - 09/04/09 02:05 AM

Here's all you need, Phil:

[Linked Image]

Frank <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Mad_Scientist

Re: swine flu martial law - 09/05/09 11:45 AM

As professors we are supposed to have a back-up plan for some kind of online class should campus be closed due to H1N1 infections.

I'm no influenza expert, but I think this is all just to give an impression that the government are doing something about it. It's an overreaction in my view.

Did you know that, globally, ~500K people die every year from 'regular' flu? Whatever that is (not H1N1 anyway). So far, there are 170 reported deaths from H1N1 in the US! I bet more people have died getting hit by buses in the same amount of time!

H1N1 is rarely fatal, unless you are very young, very old or have pre-existing disease. My niece had an H1N1 infection in the UK a few weeks ago. She just enjoyed a vacation in Crete. Totally fine. I'm not saying H1N1 isn't a serious virus, but there are many other serious influenza viruses too. Why is this one getting so much attention? I think it's just media frenzy. Once people start panicking, institutions are forced to make a 'plan'. If it was H3N1, I'd WANT to be locked up in the my house. That bugger is nasty <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/zombie.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LandRaider

Re: swine flu martial law - 09/05/09 07:34 PM

Quote
I'm no influenza expert, but I think this is all just to give an impression that the government are doing something about it. It's an overreaction in my view.


EXACTLY. Eyewash. It's JUST like the TSA screenings at the airport while the guy in the Chili's restaurant in concourse B has a 10 inch long knife slicing carrots up.

Quote
Did you know that, globally, ~500K people die every year from 'regular' flu? Whatever that is (not H1N1 anyway). So far, there are 170 reported deaths from H1N1 in the US! I bet more people have died getting hit by buses in the same amount of time!


Yes... Actually I did know that.



Quote
H1N1 is rarely fatal, unless you are very young, very old or have pre-existing disease. My niece had an H1N1 infection in the UK a few weeks ago. She just enjoyed a vacation in Crete. Totally fine. I'm not saying H1N1 isn't a serious virus, but there are many other serious influenza viruses too. Why is this one getting so much attention? I think it's just media frenzy. Once people start panicking, institutions are forced to make a 'plan'. If it was H3N1, I'd WANT to be locked up in the my house. That bugger is nasty <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/zombie.gif" alt="" />


I'm glad at least someone has some damn sense in this world.

Just wait until we have a REAL pandemic. You know what the plan is for that one? I'll let everyone guess. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/kewl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: bretwalda

Glen Beck - 09/08/09 04:36 AM

Setting the record straight on Glen Beck
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Glen Beck - 09/09/09 05:46 AM

Eh, Beck is an entertainer now, and he's gotten really full of himself (in my opinion). I really liked the guy a few years ago...and he slowly (and not so slowly in some areas) started drifting off course. I've given up on him.
Posted By: bretwalda

Re: Mark Cuban - 09/15/09 09:15 PM

I had heard the rumors but hadn't realized the facts were vetted by the NYT's...

Flashback:

Mark Cuban, fronting the bling to g...onwide, gets broadsided by the Feds- NYT

And if you've seen Loose Change, the charge that the movie claims "President Bush planned the demolition of the World Trade Center" is idiotic.

...Of course, Cuban was acquitted of all charges.


Happy coincidenting. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: 4x4Wire

Re: Mark Cuban - 09/16/09 05:40 AM

How about starting a new thread the next time you change subjects???

Sure would be easier to follow....

Or is conspiracy setting in a you wan to keep it hard to follow???

Just kidding!!!!!!

Except to keep the thread to a respectable length, please.

It does make admin tasks easier.
Posted By: stony-man

Re: Mark Cuban - 09/16/09 05:48 PM

It's part of the same conspiracy, is it not?
© 2020 4x4Wire TrailTalk